AR-15 sight questions

Prepper

Prepper

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I'm still pretty new to rifles, with my Ruger 10/22 (scoped) that I've had for a few years and have taken to the range many times, plus the new AR-15 (Bushmaster) that I bought earlier this year and took to the range for the second time today.

My first impression that I got each time to the range with my AR-15 is "WOW, I really SUCK", and I was glad there was no one else at the range to witness how much I totally SUCK. We're talking 3 to 6 inches off the bulls eye at just 25 yards. Using a rest didn't help things any either; it's clearly inaccurate because I'm pointing it the wrong way and the bullets have the nerve of going where I actually point. I only put 20 rounds through it each trip with the AR since I was doing so badly that I figured it wasn't worth doing any more just yet (especially at the current cost of 223's) until I try to figure out what's going wrong here.

I'm confident its the sights that I'm not sure how to use properly. The sights on other guns are pretty straightforward... line up the thing in the middle between the things to the left and right of it. With the AR, I'm trying to put the peg (of the front sight) in the middle of the circle (rear sight) but I'm still ending up way off (mostly way too high) as I'm finding it hard to center that peg. Plus, I'm in MA where collapsible stocks are EVIL (or just illegal) so I can't do anything to get my eye a little closer so that I can line things up better with the left and right sides of the front sight (I can't even see them).

Anyway, is it worth me attempting to figure out how to use the factory-provided sights, or should I replace them with something else that'd be easier to use (or even a scope) and go with that? What do most people with AR type guns use at the range?
 
Do you have access to a longer range? If so, try putting a mik jug or detergent bottle downrange (assuming that your range will allow it, most will) and practice shooting at it from 50-100 yards away. Where this method wont get you "pinpoint" accuracy, it will get you comfortable and familiar with the basic sight picture of the AR and you'll also get real-time feedback when you hit the target.

At least for me, this allows me to relax a bit and not wonder "Did I hit it that time?". Instead I can just focus on hitting the jug over and over. As long as the jug lands/stays in a safe postion on or near the berm, you can blast away for 10 mags worth before the jug is Swiss cheese and won't respond anymore. [smile]

You may find that you have to cover the target with the front sight, and having a larger and bright colored target like a Tide detergent bottle will help quite a bit with that. Plus if you're using a hot .223 round, you'll send that jug on quite a ride! [wink]

Hope this helps and enjoy the AR!
 
Good info on sighting in your AR15

http://www.fsguns.com/ibsz.html

Keep in mind that with iron sights, the intended design is to be a "man stopper" so plus or minus 6" at 50 to 100 yards or more will certainly do the job. If your looking for sub one inch groups you might want to put some glass on it.
 
Yup, I can shoot cans and jugs at my range. I think doing that at the 25 yard range is sufficient for starters. One thing I noticed about a can in the dirt is that it'll move even if I hit the dirt near it... the dirt splashes from the impact and it hits the can, then it moves. So, I can't always tell for sure if I hit it. Maybe a big Tide bottle wouldn't be pushed around like that though.

I still need to figure out if it's worth sticking with the iron sights that it came with though.
 
Aperture sights like on the M-16, M-14, and others take awhile to get used to. If you're used to the blade sights, your brain isn't used to looking through the hole correctly. You will have to learn to be consistent on stock weld and sight alignment to get the most out of these sights. There are military marksmanship articles out on the web to show you the basics. You'll eventually figure out that these sights are quite good and you'll have trouble going back to the others!

Joe R>
 
I assume there are good military reasons why the sights are designed this way? It's not readily apparent to me, although I can't imagine the US gov't would have millions of guns produced for the troops with these sights unless they had a good reason for this particular design.

Until I'm sure that I'm lining them up properly, I can't realistically even sight in the gun (if it's even necessary... I'll bet the default alignment is far more accurate than the amount of error that I'm putting into it).
 
Prepper said:
I assume there are good military reasons why the sights are designed this way?
Click to expand...

Faster target acquisition and sight alignment.

I forget the exact physical details why, but it has something to do with the way a persons eye and optic portion of the brain wants to focus on the rear apature and front sight post so that the top of the sight post is dead center in the apature.

As someone pointed out it just takes some practice and getting used to.

It does help a great deal by getting up close to the sights as possible... as in putting your nose almost to the charging handle.

Since a collapsible stock is out of the question, you could try replacing it with an A1 style stock or one of the shorter tactical entry type stocks.

If you still find that you're having a problem with the iron sights the next best alternative would be a decent red-dot scope.

However, unless your AR is a flat-top model, you might be trading one problem for another if you mount optics on a carry handle version as the line of sight is going to be much higher and will be another thing to get used to.

See if any of this info helps...

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/sightsopticsfaq.msnw
 
Thanks, that link looks useful... I'll check it out.

I can fully see the front sight if I push so far forward that my cheek doesn't really press against the stock anymore. Instead, my cheek is against that tube-shaped thing (highly technical term!) that connects the back part of the stock to the rest of the gun. (I think this tube would normally be telescoping if I lived in a free state, but alas it's fixed.) So, it feels a bit awkward and I'm wishing I could make the stock an inch or two shorter so I could see the front sight more comfortably.
 
LoginName said:
See if any of this info helps...
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/sightsopticsfaq.msnw
Click to expand...


This is a good site that I used as well. I zero in at 25 yds and go from there. You SHOULD be able to zero your rifle in at 25yds with groups less than the size of a quarter from the bench, if not better. Once you have groups this size you adjust the windage and elevation (using the front sight) for the 25 yd zero. This will yield two POI with your line of sight- one at 25 yds (obviously) and one at somewhere over 200 yds. Basically between 25 and say 200yds your shots will be up to several inches high without adjusting for elevation. After about 200 yds the bullets drop considerably so you need to adjust elevation at various distances thereafter.

Bottom line- I'd focus on getting solid groups at 25 yds before going after bottles or anything else IMHO.
 
I feel your pain.
I can shoot much better with standard notch sites than what I can with US military/peep sights, even in fast target acquisition. But yet with a bench and concentration I can shoot better with my M1 Garand and 03A3 Springfield at 100 yards than what I can with some of my best milsurps that are known for accuracy like my Swedes and Swiss rifles.
I figured its just getting used to the sights.
Give me my Norinco 26 SKS and I can hit 10 clays at 50 yards standing but with 10 rounds in my AR I'm lucky to get 4. It should be the other way around.[thinking]
 
That web site says my nose should be all the way up to the charging handle. That gives me a good sight picture, but I'm also not a contortionist.
 
What makes a good bench rest for steadying an AR15 for accurate shooting and sighting in? What I have now is this plastic thing intended for pistols, but I can put the barrel of a rifle in the "V" as well and at least steady the front end. And I recently got this metal one at Dick's intended for rifles but so far I can only get my Ruger 10/22 to sit in it properly (the two "V"'s don't seem to be positioned properly for an AR15, or maybe I misunderstand what'd be an appropriate way to rest the gun in it).
 
Prepper said:
That web site says my nose should be all the way up to the charging handle. That gives me a good sight picture, but I'm also not a contortionist.
Click to expand...

Which apature are you using? The small one or the large one?
You should be using the large one for targets 300m or less.



Prepper said:
What makes a good bench rest for steadying an AR15 for accurate shooting and sighting in? What I have now is this plastic thing intended for pistols, but I can put the barrel of a rifle in the "V" as well and at least steady the front end. And I recently got this metal one at Dick's intended for rifles but so far I can only get my Ruger 10/22 to sit in it properly (the two "V"'s don't seem to be positioned properly for an AR15, or maybe I misunderstand what'd be an appropriate way to rest the gun in it).
Click to expand...

Sandbags are fine or a bipod.
 
Apature? The gun only has what came with it. It looks pretty small, but without having something to compare it with, I can't be sure. So, you're saying that the hole in the rear sight that I look through (to see the front sight) can be swapped for a larger one?
 
Prepper,

You're making this harder than it should be and you're thinking too much - slow down! [smile]

The AR-15 rear sight has 2 apertures on it. The small one is what you use for most of your shooting. The larger is for low light or close up. Some people use it for their general purpose shooting - I don't. The smaller hole will give you more precision at any distance than the big one. Again, this is your choice. You flip up the one you're gonna use and start from there. ( This is making the assumption that your rifle is an AR-15A2 variation - the older SP-1 uses the 2nd aperture as a long-range sight for 400+ yards. )

The brain will try to center the tip of the front sight post in the hole. You still have to do you part by using the same place on the stock for your cheek. Some people find it easier to put the nose on the charging handle ( easier on the M-16A1 stock because it's shorter ) as a reference point. The A2 stock has me backing off by 5/8" ( just how much longer the A2 stock is over the A1 stock [grin] ) to not look like I'm trying to stretch too far to see. If yo have to, put a piece of tape or mark the stock where you need to be. Your face should fall on the stock naturally to look thru the sights. If it feels like you're fighting this, you're doing it wrong.

The AR series of rifles are about as ergonomic a rifle as you are ever gonna get off of the shelf - don't fight it, use it.

Joe R.
 
Bushmaster sells some targets which are designed to help you zero your rifle. They are about halfway down this page:

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_bm_gear.asp

These targets also feature step-by-step instructions on how to do this.

The other suggestion I have is to find an experienced AR-15 shooter (preferably with some instructor abilities) to work with you on a one-to-one basis. He/she might be able to see if you are doing anything wrong and offer some helpful comments.

ARs are just too much fun to not be able to shoot them.
 
Joe R. said:
The AR-15 rear sight has 2 apertures on it. The small one is what you use for most of your shooting. The larger is for low light or close up.
Click to expand...

Doh! I should have read the manual first (other than how to take apart for cleaning), there it is. That's pretty cool. I can easily see the front sight through the larger aperture. I'm still not sure which I should be using... I need to first get the hang of it at 25 yards then I can switch to the 100 yard range (that's the limit). (I don't think I'll be doing anything further than 100 unless I happen to visit another range.)
 
I was at the range today. There's no way I'm going to be able to properly look through the smaller aperture. The fixed stock just holds it too far away. Maybe the prone position would let me get my eye a little closer, but I haven't tried that yet.

I had better luck today using the larger aperture. The shots are much more consistent (grouping about 2" at 25 yards... yeah I know, still terrible but I'm new here), although still always 3-4 inches over where I'm hoping to aim, and slightly to the left. Are they 3-4 inches too high because the gun would be sighted in by default for 300 yards, thus it'd be too high for just 25 yards? (I haven't touched the front sight yet [as explained in the manual], and the rear sight wheel is left in that 8/3 notch.) I need to get a better way of resting the gun if I'm going to be able to sight this in myself. (Bipod maybe?)
 
You can adjust the front site... absolutely. Here's something from my AR Bushy manual:

ZEROING ADJUSTMENTS…
1.) During zeroing procedures, only the front sight post and windage knob
are adjusted to move the strike of the bullet on the target.
 
Okay, you're using the large aperture. [wink]

To start zeroing an AR you need to have the sights set to mechanical zero. Your front sight post will be flush with the flat top of the front sight base. Your rear sight will be centered for windage and your elevation will be 8/3 or 8/3 -1 ( 1 click below the 8/3 - some people recommend this but you have enough elevation on the front sight post to do 8/3. )

At 25 yds. ( close enough for govenment work - should be 25 meters ), fire a 3-shot group. Adjust your elevation using the front sight post only and following the arrow to raise the group if low. Adjust your windage the usual way. Keep shooting groups untill you're satisfied with the zero settings. Now once you've done this the rifle will be roughly adjustable for range using the elevation wheel once you get past 300yds. IT WON'T BE PERFECT AND WILL NEED TO BE REFINED WHEN YOU SHOOT THOSE DISTANCES!!! Remember, the sights are set up for the M855 ball ammo - M193 will be close at shorter ranges but will be off at the longer ranges. The zero you have at 25 yds will work for anything between that distance and 300 dead on with a difference of about 2" or so higher impact at 100yds and alittle less at 200yds. The books listed above go over this quite well.

This isn't a slap, just a suggestion. You need to find someone with an AR and spend the day with them going over the rifle and shooting it. I'd help you out if you're near me as I go to the range on Sundays pretty regularly. Give me a PM if you're near the Westwood, Medfield area. I live in Franklin but WGC ( car shoot range ) is my home range.

Joe R.
 
Thanks for the link to the FM3-22.9 manual... lots of useful info in there. I'll read a good part of it before I ask anymore newbie questions. I may take you up on your offer someday once I figure out where Westwood is (probably fairly far from me)... I go to Westford which has a 100 yard range. None of my friends have an AR15 although one does have a mini-14 (which he's perhaps used 2 or 3 times in the last 5 years).

I just found that I can see through the small aperture if I'm prone, or sitting in a chair but leaning way forward. If I'm standing normally or sitting upright, it doesn't work out too well. (Is that what I should expect?)
 
Prepper said:
I just found that I can see through the small aperture if I'm prone, or sitting in a chair but leaning way forward. If I'm standing normally or sitting upright, it doesn't work out too well. (Is that what I should expect?)
Click to expand...

You should be able to do the same thing standing. I sometimes find shooting my AR with big muffs to be a little challenging but you should be able to do it. FWIW for close distances you can just use the larger aperture. See notes from Bushy manual:

The A1 REAR SIGHT Has two apertures for differing ranges but does not offer any mechanical means of adjustment for elevation
• Use the unmarked aperture for targets from 0 - 300 meters.
• Use the aperture marked L for targets from 300 - 400+ meters.
 
You move your head to however close it needs to be to look through the rear sight and focus on the front sight. If your sitting in a chair or prone or standing on one foot is irrelevant. Just pretend the the front sight is a nekid lady and your peeping through the door.

B
 

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