one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
I have a headache. I'm going home. Jack.
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ammunition storage laws?
- Thread starter rufunky
- Start date
FYI. As of January 1 ammo storage and permitting no longer falls under CMR 13.04. It is now under NFPA 1 section 465?? Which will refer you back to the mass amendments. NFPA is now used for all fire code.
Yes this is confusing. The best way to get un-confused is to take Len's class. Len is also on this forum. We keep going over this. This is my understanding, as briefly put as possible. IANAL.
Yes, you can legally store a loaded handgun in the trunk of a parked car, but you can't drive the car with a loaded handgun in the trunk. Assuming you have an LTC, once you start driving, you're transporting the gun, not storing it, and it must be locked up and unloaded, or under your direct control.
As I understand Mass Law, your gun is in one of 4 states:
- Storage
- Transportation
- Under Direct Control
- On School Grounds
When transporting a gun, it must be unloaded. Handguns and high capacity long guns must also be locked in a case.
When under your direct control (i.e carrying in a holster on your hip), your handgun may be loaded. This assumes you have an LTC, and you're not in a forbidden zone. You can't carry a loaded long gun on public ways (roads), even with an LTC.
On school grounds, the gun must be unloaded, locked in a case and not on your person. I.e. they can be locked up in your car, maybe in your trunk, maybe in a case.
Locked in the trunk of a car counts as locked in a case, as long as no unauthorized people have access. If driving your car with your gun, you're either transporting unloaded it or it's under your direct control and may be loaded. If you walk away from your car, you're storing the guns in your car and they must all be locked up, loaded or not.
So yes, if you have an LTC, you can keep an unloaded gun locked in your trunk and drive around, as long as no unauthorized persons can access the contents of your trunk. You can store a loaded gun in the trunk of your car, as long as you don't drive it, and no unauthorized persons can access it. Once you start driving, you're transporting or carrying the gun and it must be unloaded or on your person. If the gun is loaded while you drive, it must be under your direct control. Unless the gun is on your body, in a holster or pocket or something similar, "Under your direct control" is poorly defined and open to interpretation by LEOs, DAs, etc.
(Off-body carry of a loaded handgun is very difficult to do safely and legally, and it's up to the LEO & DA to decide what is and is not under your direct control. An experienced shooter in Idaho just died when her 2-year-old kid got to the gun in her purse and shot her. She was new to off-body carry, with fatal results. Many here strongly recommend against off-body carry.)
Man. I just started understanding the old rules. Is there a URL where this change is documented?
If you create a free account for yourself, you can read the NFPA code here. IIUC, normal residential folks are allowed up to 10,000 primers. I see no limits on ammo.
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=495
When I get home I will scan the amendment and attach here. It shows the amounts allowed, permitted and not. Only real change I saw in NFPA was that powder now has to be stored in a 1" thick wooden box, no more metal cabinet.
inerlogic
NES Member
says who, and where did they say it?
inerlogic
NES Member
ok... so they changed the regulations... but not the quantities or the need for a permit:
page 49
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/527cmr1-00.pdf
page 49
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/527cmr1-00.pdf
The mass CMR change is documented here:
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/agencies/dfs/dfs2/osfm/fire-prev/527-cmr-index.html
The Mass CMR update is here.
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/527cmr1-00.pdf
I don't see any substantive change. If you have no ammo storage permit, you still have to keep your ammo locked up and in original packaging. So reloaders still have to have a permit. The limits on primers and rounds of ammo all look the same to me. The text is formatted differently now, but the rules seem the same to me.
I don't store much powder, so I can't say if the powder storage rules/limits are different.
Correct. As far as I saw there were no changes to amounts for a permit and no change to amounts for not needing a permit. I was Just stating that there is a different code to reference
My Fire Chief replied to my query on this new change in CMRs and supplied me with just the chart from that 250 page document.
I posted it in a locked thread on my training forum here.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/271760-MA-Ammo-Components-Storage-CMR-2015
The reference to a "license" for higher amounts than the current permit peaked my curiosity so I sent a further query to my Fire Chief and if anything useful and practical is learned about that new, higher level of storage I will post it in the above referenced thread.
I posted it in a locked thread on my training forum here.
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/271760-MA-Ammo-Components-Storage-CMR-2015
The reference to a "license" for higher amounts than the current permit peaked my curiosity so I sent a further query to my Fire Chief and if anything useful and practical is learned about that new, higher level of storage I will post it in the above referenced thread.
Groan.
Len just pointed out a change in the rules that I'd missed.
Under the old rules, you could have 1000 primers without a permit, 10,000 with a permit.
Under the new rules, you can have 999 primers without a permit, 9,999 with a permit.
It seems they changed the rules from "not more than X" to "less than X" for all the limits. So they took away one primer, one round of rimfire, one round of centerfire, one shotgun shell, etc.
So to possess a full box of 1,000 primers, now it seems you need a permit.
Your tax dollars at work. I don't know about you, but I feel much safer now.
Len just pointed out a change in the rules that I'd missed.
Under the old rules, you could have 1000 primers without a permit, 10,000 with a permit.
Under the new rules, you can have 999 primers without a permit, 9,999 with a permit.
It seems they changed the rules from "not more than X" to "less than X" for all the limits. So they took away one primer, one round of rimfire, one round of centerfire, one shotgun shell, etc.
So to possess a full box of 1,000 primers, now it seems you need a permit.
Your tax dollars at work. I don't know about you, but I feel much safer now.
A locked box
Powder and Ammunition Storage
"small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use."
This got me to thinking, and staring at my mess of a bench.
I'm certainly not skilled in carpentry or cabinet making; and I know that others would have had better ideas or workmanship; but this is what I did.
I now have "a locked box"
All boxed in and deadbolts on the door.
i just thought this might give some others some food for thought.
Powder and Ammunition Storage
"small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use."
This got me to thinking, and staring at my mess of a bench.
I'm certainly not skilled in carpentry or cabinet making; and I know that others would have had better ideas or workmanship; but this is what I did.
I now have "a locked box"
All boxed in and deadbolts on the door.
i just thought this might give some others some food for thought.
Wasn't the problem just with the lock it'self? The info I read was that the room in question had only a privacy lock like that used on a bedroom or bathroom. They can be opened with almost anything, by anybody.
Are You saying that this would not pass muster?
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...ur-guns-safe?p=4333403&viewfull=1#post4333403
It is certainly way more secure than one of those cheapo gun cabinets.
No argument from me. Hasn't been tested in court yet. One thing to consider is "are there any windows where someone could break in?"
The only window in the room can be seen in pic #1 in post #21 in that thread.
It is covered by two layers of 3/4" plywood plus five 1-1/2" x 1/4" steel bars. The room is also equipped with motion sensor.
Ben Cartwright SASS
NES Member
Len
First what is the difference between a permit and a license? I assume the permit is the form to have more than 1,000 primers etc. is a license an LTC or a special license?
Am I reading this wrong, it says you cannot have less than 10,000 rounds of rimfire - Permit NO License NO >10000 Permit YES License NO <30k Permit no License yes
On smokeless powder it is saying you can have more than 16 pounds with a permit, but doesn't have a top end i.e. total amount allowed unless you assume that with more than 48 pounds you need a license (whatever that is) so does that mean with a permit you can have 16-48 pounds?
First what is the difference between a permit and a license? I assume the permit is the form to have more than 1,000 primers etc. is a license an LTC or a special license?
Am I reading this wrong, it says you cannot have less than 10,000 rounds of rimfire - Permit NO License NO >10000 Permit YES License NO <30k Permit no License yes
On smokeless powder it is saying you can have more than 16 pounds with a permit, but doesn't have a top end i.e. total amount allowed unless you assume that with more than 48 pounds you need a license (whatever that is) so does that mean with a permit you can have 16-48 pounds?
They killed us with this new change (1/1/15 CMR).
10K primers/etc. requires a LICENSE (not the permit from fire chief)!!! [Prior to new change, permits included 10K/30K/50K/50K, not "LESS than" language that is in there now.]
I queried my fire chief (good guy) and he tells me that selectmen (in my town) are the ones to issue the license, NOT the FD. What that tells me is it is done in a public meeting, published, broadcast on cable TV, etc. So much for C. 66 S. 10(d) privacy of gun ownership/LTC/FID info and prohibitions on making any of that info public. I plan to address this issue first with my fire chief, but ONLY after the continuing Winter disasters cease and desist! Yesterday I saw my fire chief and one of his Sons up on very high ladders (he bought a 2 story farmhouse) and on the roof of his house clearing snow.
My goal will be a change in the CMR to include 10K/30K/50K/50K even numbers with the permit. Also some way to get the License WITHOUT going public!
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
Keep us posted . I'm interested in this since I got started in reloading. The primer count is easy to go over .
Especially when you buy in 1000 qty or 5K qty (case of primers)!
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
Yeah first time I went to buy primers I bought a box and leaving the store I thought did the math and was shocked how easy. If I had little more cash on me I would of gone for the bulk price the shop offer ended me and Id be at 10 k.
Ben Cartwright SASS
NES Member
I will also talk to the FD about it. I will also talk to one of the Selectmen regarding the license and privacy. One of our Selectmen, Cliff Snuffer is a pretty good conservative. Also being a Town Meeting Member myself it may help (I hope)
Ben Cartwright SASS
NES Member
Len
Maybe we should start a new threat about the ammo/primer storage license as it would be good information for all.
Jeff
Agreed but let's wait until I get a clearer understanding from my fire chief about the changes . . . and that will be after all the snow crises are over.
Ben Cartwright SASS
NES Member
I was just talking to Jim Wallace and asked him about that and he said he hadn't heard anything about such a thing.
oh by the way, it will be July before the snow stops falling and I just blew the engine on my snow blower!
oh by the way, it will be July before the snow stops falling and I just blew the engine on my snow blower!
Sad, but can't say that I'm surprised. One must always keep one eye on the "regulators" . . . everything doesn't happen in the State House.
I believe you are right. Sorry to hear about the snow blower problem. You might check Harbor Freight for a replacement engine.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Am I missing something? I'm looking at the new CMR here:
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/527cmr1-00.pdf
Pages 49-50 seem to be the table of thresholds, which all seem to be the same as before...
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