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Ambulance personnel divided

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I thought you may like to see what ambulance personnel, both EMT's and Paramedics are saying about treating someone who is carrying. I am an EMT and also a member of this forum, trying to state my case without being disrespectful. Notice that there are people that say they will wait until an LEO gets there before they will even get out of the ambulance if you are carrying. And will return to their ambulance if spotted later without an LEO present. You can tell the sheeples from the people that actually have deduced a conclusion based on facts.

Concealed Carry topic on EMTLife.com
 
I thought you may like to see what ambulance personnel, both EMT's and Paramedics are saying about treating someone who is carrying. I am an EMT and also a member of this forum, trying to state my case without being disrespectful. Notice that there are people that say they will wait until an LEO gets there before they will even get out of the ambulance if you are carrying. And will return to their ambulance if spotted later without an LEO present. You can tell the sheeples from the people that actually have deduced a conclusion based on facts.

Concealed Carry topic on EMTLife.com

How would you know if the injured party has a concealed sidearm? [thinking]
 
It is not a far stretch to potential find one during a physical assessment. Especially for a trauma patient where a lot of times a head to toe rapid assessment is necessary. Of interest is the many replies that would, if told by lucid patient that they had a weapon on them would just get back into the ambulance and call for an LEO.
 
I thought you may like to see what ambulance personnel, both EMT's and Paramedics are saying about treating someone who is carrying. I am an EMT and also a member of this forum, trying to state my case without being disrespectful. Notice that there are people that say they will wait until an LEO gets there before they will even get out of the ambulance if you are carrying. And will return to their ambulance if spotted later without an LEO present. You can tell the sheeples from the people that actually have deduced a conclusion based on facts.

Concealed Carry topic on EMTLife.com

and if they will not touch a person until LEO arrives, etc, and the person dies, I pray that the EMT/paramedic loses their job. I am *NOT* kidding. If I need medical attention like that, and you refuse me treatment roadside because of my firearm (which I have a permit for), you bet your ass I will make your life a living hell once I recover. Do EMTs and Paras have no obligation to do their job?!
 
and if they will not touch a person until LEO arrives, etc, and the person dies, I pray that the EMT/paramedic loses their job. I am *NOT* kidding. If I need medical attention like that, and you refuse me treatment roadside because of my firearm (which I have a permit for), you bet your ass I will make your life a living hell once I recover. Do EMTs and Paras have no obligation to do their job?!

they have no obligation, under law, to put themselves or their team in jeopardy for the treatment of a patient. The exact reason an LEO is automatically called for a drug overdose, mental instability (suicide attempt, etc) Much like LEO's, the legal duty to act is a gray area. One that EMT's/Paramedics are not required to do if they feel their safety is threatened.
 
they have no obligation, under law, to put themselves or their team in jeopardy for the treatment of a patient. The exact reason an LEO is automatically called for a drug overdose, mental instability (suicide attempt, etc) Much like LEO's, the legal duty to act is a gray area. One that EMT's/Paramedics are not required to do if they feel their safety is threatened.

now, if I am in a car accident, and need medical attention, I would like to see the rationale that the EMT team is in jeopardy because I am properly licensed to carry a firearm. Unless I am threatening the EMT/para, their safety is not threatened and they better get on with their job.
 
I agree with a lot of the people on that thread. It would depend on the nature of the call. If it's not a rush and if it's at the person's house, I would ask the person to disarm and leave the gun at home (complications could arise at the hospital when they don't have anything to do with their gun in a place that has a no firearms policy). If it's not a rush and not at home, I would ask the person to disarm and have an LEO hold the gun until they can pick it up. We could wait for an LEO to get there if needed for a non-rush call. If it's an emergency situation where time is critical, I would ask them to disarm or disarm them (if they're not conscious). If there's an LEO right there, they can hold it. But if not, I would unload it and put it in the ambulance with the rest of his belongings and give it to an LEO ASAP.

I think the only time it gets more complicated than that would be if a person refuses to give up his weapon. That would be the time to call for instructions and CYA.

I say all this not actually working as an EMT, just with certification, so people who have actual experience might have a better idea than me for what to do.
 
and if they will not touch a person until LEO arrives, etc, and the person dies, I pray that the EMT/paramedic loses their job. I am *NOT* kidding. If I need medical attention like that, and you refuse me treatment roadside because of my firearm (which I have a permit for), you bet your ass I will make your life a living hell once I recover. Do EMTs and Paras have no obligation to do their job?!

now, if I am in a car accident, and need medical attention, I would like to see the rationale that the EMT team is in jeopardy because I am properly licensed to carry a firearm. Unless I am threatening the EMT/para, their safety is not threatened and they better get on with their job.

I agree that they would be wrong to refuse treatment in that case. But all they would need to do is make a case that they would have been in danger by giving treatment. And since this is MA, that shouldn't be too hard of a case for them to make. In other states, they would be done. I think that lots of companies have protocol for things like that, so they would probably follow protocol and that would protect them legally.
 
I agree with you. If I am the EMT on the call you have nothing to fear. Some, though, consider the simple presence of a firearm a reason to deem the scene unsafe. Some bring up the fact that are not trained to handle handguns and in states like NY, are not to even possess them without a license or being an LEO.

I think the nature of the call determines a lot. I will not place a gun on scene in a non threatening manner as a danger, especially in a non-urgent situation and would look for solution to the problem. It is also not out of the question to ask for an LEO to meet you at the hospital to take possession of the weapon to avoid issues like stated above.
 
Also, many of the members of that forum are active EMT's, like me, and actively work/ride in the EMS community. I think the scared of a firearm, get an LEO crowd, in my opinion is the majority. This is from what I have seen in my time in EMS/Fire.
 
and if they will not touch a person until LEO arrives, etc, and the person dies, I pray that the EMT/paramedic loses their job. I am *NOT* kidding. If I need medical attention like that, and you refuse me treatment roadside because of my firearm (which I have a permit for), you bet your ass I will make your life a living hell once I recover. Do EMTs and Paras have no obligation to do their job?!

IANAL but I beleive In fact they do have that obligation. If and EMT walked away from you because you were legally carrying a holstered firearm and not threatening. I suspect you would have not only a criminal case but a major civil case against them. And beleive me I am not a lawsuit guy but if I were not treated because I was carrying there would be a case going to trial. As mentioned earlier if someone if afraid of doing their job they are probably in the wrong proffession. I know I may get slammed for this but speak with the knowledge that I and family and friends have charged into fires and situation far more dangerous than someone carrying a holstered gun. My father was a fire chief and EMT back home for many years and knew his responsibilities not only carried moral but legal obligations. Unless times have changed, then I am totally wrong and stand corrected. And I would have to beleive the number of EMTs thet would walk away would be incredibly small. I find the whole notion of an EMT walking away quite disturbing. I know I would not be able to walk away and it is not what I get paid to do.
 
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I thought you may like to see what ambulance personnel, both EMT's and Paramedics are saying about treating someone who is carrying. I am an EMT and also a member of this forum, trying to state my case without being disrespectful. Notice that there are people that say they will wait until an LEO gets there before they will even get out of the ambulance if you are carrying. And will return to their ambulance if spotted later without an LEO present. You can tell the sheeples from the people that actually have deduced a conclusion based on facts. Concealed Carry topic on EMTLife.com

Unfortunately, I have experience with this topic. My ex was knocked unconscious and almost killed when a scumbag (speeding) blew a red light and hit her broadside. After she was extricated, police searching for ID found her pistol (off body, in her purse or briefcase, I have forgotten which). Officer took the gun and accompanied the ambulance to the ER. He made out a hand receipt and turned it over to the first of her family members who arrived, then that person handed it over to me.

I have been transported twice while armed, once from home, and once from a crash, and gone to the ER myself in two other cases, but I was conscious each time. Had pistols spotted twice, but it was not really a major issue.

The biggest problem was the time I thought it would be safest for me to keep the ankle gun holstered, but the holster was soaked with blood and one of the docs was clearly bothered by it (he wanted me to keep the gun unholstered but red bag the holster). I wrapped the whole thing up in a plastic bag, taped it shut, and stuck it in a cargo pocket, everyone was happy.

To me, the biggest surprise about that EMT thread is how many insist that they won't do their job unless their absolute safety is guaranteed by a third party. The fact that EMTs are rolling on a call is a clue that there is a high probability that someone's safety has already been compromised. If they want guarantees and a safe life, they probably picked the wrong profession.
 
To me, the biggest surprise about that EMT thread is how many insist that they won't do their job unless their absolute safety is guaranteed by a third party. The fact that EMTs are rolling on a call is a clue that there is a high probability that someone's safety has already been compromised. If they want guarantees and a safe life, they probably picked the wrong profession.

This. I would consider that line of work being somewhat high risk. I'd imagine some of the people you treat or deal with (especially in cities) aren't exactly the type you'd normally want to associate with.
 
If the victim is an injured LEO riding by him/herself what would they do? Wait for another LEO to arrive?
I've known some Boston EMTs and they were civil servants in the truest sense of the word. They put themselves in harms way on a regular basis so that they could tend to the injured. They climb into wrecks while rescue workers are using the jaws of life. They climb down onto the tracks in the subway with a live third rail. They treat gunshot victims who may or may not be armed. They would not be worried in the least if you were carrying a side arm.

I wonder about these folks who would 'wait'. I'm guessing they would wait if there were smoke coming from a car too.
 
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If you mean towards me (since you posted shortly after me), no need. I'm a big boy, and I wouldn't say anything in reply that I wouldn't say to you in person.

Funny, I was wondering the same thing about if it was pointed at me. But then I figured it couldnt be since I have been in situations far worse than assisting someone with a holstered firearm and did not think twice about it and I did this when I was a volunteer firefighter and EMT.
 
What I meant to say, since I obviously didn't word it right. Was having worked some people who act like that (the threatening to refuse care types), its sad that they have the biggest voice in the EMS community. Because its not true. And I didn't want to say something against them that would make it look like I was bashing the entire community.


To say you wouldn't treat a patient because of something simple like that is downright stupid, if not negligent. Theres one thing to be concerned about scene safety, its quite another to refuse care to someone simply because of what they have on them. If it concerns them that much, then they should remove it, if safe to do so, and secure it. Its not that difficult. The only time to be truely concerned because someone has a gun is if you have a violent psych patient or a wounded suspect. In both cases the PD should either be there or close by. And if they arent, you shouldnt get close enough to the scene to find out they have a gun anyway.
 
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Thanks for that message Ryan. I was realy getting distressed that the situation could as bad as it sounded. As I stated earlier I have to beleive the number of Trained EMTs the would not render aid in this situation to be incredibly small but probably very vocal as most anti 2A folks are.
 
I thought you may like to see what ambulance personnel, both EMT's and Paramedics are saying about treating someone who is carrying. I am an EMT and also a member of this forum, trying to state my case without being disrespectful. Notice that there are people that say they will wait until an LEO gets there before they will even get out of the ambulance if you are carrying. And will return to their ambulance if spotted later without an LEO present. You can tell the sheeples from the people that actually have deduced a conclusion based on facts.

Concealed Carry topic on EMTLife.com

As a former EMT who at the time did not have firearms experience, I would have waited for LEO if the situation were not truly emergent...because I would have assumed they were firearms experts and could make the situation safe before I continued to work.

Now, after my eyes have been open to this world it would be different.

I'd do my work and make the gun safe myself. My only concern would be whether the guy was involved in a firefight and there were others still around that would be shooting in his direction (my direction)
 
I agree with a lot of the people on that thread. It would depend on the nature of the call. If it's not a rush and if it's at the person's house, I would ask the person to disarm and leave the gun at home (complications could arise at the hospital when they don't have anything to do with their gun in a place that has a no firearms policy). If it's not a rush and not at home, I would ask the person to disarm and have an LEO hold the gun until they can pick it up. We could wait for an LEO to get there if needed for a non-rush call. If it's an emergency situation where time is critical, I would ask them to disarm or disarm them (if they're not conscious). If there's an LEO right there, they can hold it. But if not, I would unload it and put it in the ambulance with the rest of his belongings and give it to an LEO ASAP.

I think the only time it gets more complicated than that would be if a person refuses to give up his weapon. That would be the time to call for instructions and CYA.

I say all this not actually working as an EMT, just with certification, so people who have actual experience might have a better idea than me for what to do.

The way I understand it: the way MA law is written - if you are a concealed carry permit holder - and you give up your weapon you (the permit holder) can get in big trouble.

If the pistol is not in direct control of the permit holder (meaning further than arms' reach) and is not locked up - then the permit holder is in violation of the law.

Technically speaking even the EMT or ambulance worker could get in deep doo-doo for handling the firearm under MA law if they are not licensed.

All of this is under the direct discretion of any LEO's who are present - OR - any who may find out about the incident later and decide to write it up.

The over-arching takeaway from MA gun law is: TRUST NOBODY.

I heard this story directly from a close friend: A close friend of his let his permit lapse. So trying to be a good citizen he went to the police station and asked what to do about the guns he had at home. The officer on the desk told him to bring the firearms down to the station and they would store them for him until his permit was renewed. So he did. And he applied for his permit renewal. Then a week or two later he gets another call from the police dept. to come down to the station. So - again, like a good citizen - he did. This time however he gets arrested for possesion and transportation of firearms without a license. Now he is screwed - because he doesn't have his permit yet, and technically he DID possess and transport without a license. Now from what I understand of MA law - it is not illegal to have firearms IN YOUR HOUSE without a license (somebody please correct me on this if I am wrong) - but the problem is that you cannot remove them from the house at all. So (if this is true) - the thing that got this guy was the transportation, not the possession. So the first cop gave him bad advice. Then the second cop didn't feel like giving him a break. And everybody else involved (cops, lawyers, licensing board, etc) this being MA, are like sharks smelling blood when it comes to getting a gun owner in their sights.

So he is screwed.

Takeaway lesson: Trust NOBODY. Your only defense is knowing the law, and sometimes not even that will save you - because nobody else does.

Take MA law, mix in a healthy dose of confusion and ignorance - stir up with angry gun hating liberals, and a crusading cop or DA or two - and your final result is that you are essentially rolling the dice on whether you the gun owner or the ambulance workers will get screwed if an incident like that described in the OP comes to pass.

That is the way I understand life here in MA as a gun owner.
 
they have no obligation, under law, to put themselves or their team in jeopardy for the treatment of a patient. The exact reason an LEO is automatically called for a drug overdose, mental instability (suicide attempt, etc) Much like LEO's, the legal duty to act is a gray area. One that EMT's/Paramedics are not required to do if they feel their safety is threatened.



Yeah, after all, guns go off all by themselves ALL the time!

And as far as the post above this one. If one of the "crew" removed the gun, could not cooler minds prevail and say it fell out inside the bus? Or that no one touched it? Come on, they are there to save a life.
 
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I tend to agree with the trust no one scenario for the most part. I was involved in a rear end collision / whiplash scenario a couple of years ago. I declined to go to the hospital in an ambulance (I was alone), because I was armed and knew that it would cause a hassle. No one including the officer responding knew I was carrying and I wanted to keep it that way.

There is no way I will take an ambulance ride while armed unless I have no other option.
 
An interesting fact I think in this case would be to know how many combat medics have been shot by the person they are treating. That would give you a good indication of how dangerous an armed person would be to treat. Not only that but in the case of the combat medics any weapon they come across would be loaded and the safety most likely off, not just sitting idly in a holster.

I would think blood born pathogens and people on drugs would pose a greater threat.
 
Well, I have some experience in this area. I have to agree with Ryan. The people with the biggest voice (especially on EMTLife) are those who appear to be very conservative. I personally don't care either way if someone is armed on the back of the EA. There have been people that declared they were armed and some have not. I personally would rather some let me know. There are 2 specific situations, other than some already presented, where I personally would request the police to disarm someone.

The first is an unconscious LEO. Granted this may seem like a no-brainer but if a cop is unconscious and then becomes conscious he will go to his hip.

The second is someone with altered mental status. Normal, good people to really strange things when altered especially folks who are hypoglycemic. Some tend to be violent.

Some may say they would sue me or hope that I would lose my ticket, but bottom line is I WILL go home to my family in the morning.
 
and if they will not touch a person until LEO arrives, etc, and the person dies, I pray that the EMT/paramedic loses their job. I am *NOT* kidding. If I need medical attention like that, and you refuse me treatment roadside because of my firearm (which I have a permit for), you bet your ass I will make your life a living hell once I recover. Do EMTs and Paras have no obligation to do their job?!

Well said. That's my thoughts exactly.
 
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