Ambulance personnel divided

[cekim]

I've been thinking about how I respond to some of the crap posted on that page...

It comes down to this...

"Securing the scene" is one thing, but if you are not prepared provide life saving emergency treatment to someone because of a CCW or OC - you should be fired. You are not fit for the job. It's just that simple.

There are plenty of bigger risks to an EMT's safety - bodily fluids, bone fragments, chemicals, sharp edges at the scene just to start.

Then there is the matter that the risk of attack by a disoriented/confused/deranged patient does not require a firearm. Reaction to painful manipulation of injured body parts while disoriented is unpredictable.

Whether it be a CCW, large muscles, outward indication of martial arts/military training - there are many reasons one patient might post more of a theoretical risk than another.

That's the job. Deal with it or quit. Don't put my life at risk because you are squeamish about firearms. Deal with the regulatory work of securing them after the life-saving work...

To a minor degree, I realized I've experienced something like this...

I dislocated my knee cap. Once in the ER, the doctor - a man of much smaller stature than me - delayed treatment and called for assistance.

Not assistance resetting my knee-cap, but I heard him on the phone saying "I'm afraid he might knock me out when I push it back in"... I, of course, had given him no indication of threat - in fact, I was busy controlling my breathing through the intense pain. No yelling, no screaming, not even a raised voice when answering questions - just lots of loud, controlled breathing...

Even through the searing pain, I found this amusing, but the bottom line was that treatment was delayed... Unacceptable...

 

[GSG]

Or more likely, common sense. Police are unlikely to start a pissing contest with the people who would be responding if they where in a TA or shot while on the job. "Sorry, office, I can't stop the bleeding because there's a gun in my way."

Ken

I've never even heard it mentioned in 31 years in the field. On the contrary, I've been thanked for securing weapons and no one has asked me if I had a LTC. Contrary to what some people think, cops aren't stupid and they aren't looking to arrest people for shit that a DA would laugh at them for. Not to mention the shit that they'd take from their PS.

In fact, I'd be more concerned that some office bound idiot in my own agency would make an issue of it because we have a "no weapons" policy. Even that is pretty far fetched.

While I agree that most cops are intelligent enough to not start a pissing contest, the infamous Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper is a great example of a cop with a Rodney Farva complex who might do just that.

Sometimes, if they're gang members, all you'll find is an empty holster as either a friend or an enemy has removed the firearm itself before anyone showed up.

Really? This goes against most of the internet gun forum logic I hear about "Bad guys don't use holsters."

What kind of holsters do they usually have? Generic and cheap or custom and expensive? If answering will cause too much thread drift feel free to PM me, but things like that interest me.

 

[Garys]

While I agree that most cops are intelligent enough to not start a pissing contest, the infamous Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper is a great example of a cop with a Rodney Farva complex who might do just that.

One. Really that's one moron. Barely even a data point.

Really? This goes against most of the internet gun forum logic I hear about "Bad guys don't use holsters."

What kind of holsters do they usually have? Generic and cheap or custom and expensive? If answering will cause too much thread drift feel free to PM me, but things like that interest me.

Yeah, I hate ruining that sort of thing with having actual experience, but that's how it goes. Cheap. Of course, if they didn't have a holster, chances are I'm not going to know that they were armed.

 

[WayneWong]

We don't go in to any scene until the scene is secure. If we perceive any material danger that must be corrected before entering a scene, we call and wait for Fire, Police, NStar, the DPW or whatever agency is necessary to make the scene safe for us,

By walking into a situation that is not made safe, I can make it worse. I am not pulling this out of my ass. This is one of the very first things we are taught. We are tested on it. On every single practical station we test on, EMT or EMT Paramedic the first thing we have to express is that we check to make sure the scene is safe, If we don't express it, it is considered a critical failure and we fail the station even if the rest is done perfectly.

If during our evaluation of the scene, I see a gun I will assess my comfort level based on the context of the situation. Maybe I'll wait for help, maybe I won't. I may be a little braver than a fellow medic who has had no exposure to firearms.

If I or my partner gets injured on a call, the whole show stops until another unit arrives. We can't help anybody if we are injured. I can't put other people in danger because I dismiss the potential for violence to erupt or danger to develop.

I watched a simple psych call turn into multiple casualties one night because a know-it-all EMT parked in an unsafe location and refused to wait for PD AS INSTRUCTED . The whole street ended up getting cordoned off and multiple PD, Fire, and EMS units were needed on scene.

Until you have worked the street in a busy system, you have no idea how stupid, desperate, mean, and confused a "victim" can be. I am under no obligation to take unreasonable risks no matter how critical a persons condition is in. In fact, I am under an obligation to not take unreasonable risks.

If someone is clearly incapacitated and has a properly holstered sidearm I would likely inquire about it if possible and cautiously proceed to provide care. If something was out of place or even my instincts said something was not right with the situation I would wait for police to secure the scene first. This isn't me thinking out loud. This is the job.

Freelancers are not welcome.

 

[GSG]

One. Really that's one moron. Barely even a data point.

I think that's one case that actually made national news. I'm willing to bet that things of that nature happen more often than is reported in newspapers. Some municipalities have notorious rivalries between PD's/FD's. Like others have said, yeah, it's probably a slim chance, but it's pretty stupid that a medic, EMT or FF potentially faces criminal charges for interacting with a firearm as part of their duties, even if the chances of successful prosecution are slim.

Another thing I just thought of, in Mass. it's a $1,000-$10,000 civil fine for violating the restrictions of an LTC. If the EMS worker had a restricted LTC and a d***bag chief, it's not too big a stretch of the imagination in this state to see someone getting caught up on that (remember the guy who was charged with improper storage when he had a heart attack cleaning his guns? Or the guy who was found "unsuitable" when his jacket blew open for a second on a windy day across the street from a cop? Or the guy in Wellsley who lost his LTC by invoking his right to remain silent?

I know that it's an absurdly improbable thing to come across, but sadly here in Mass. law abiding gun owners have come to expect such things.

That's the biggest problem when we surrender power to the powers that be, it leaves people at the mercy of power-hungry morons from time to time.

Yeah, I hate ruining that sort of thing with having actual experience, but that's how it goes. Cheap. Of course, if they didn't have a holster, chances are I'm not going to know that they were armed.

Huh. Doesn't surprise me, I must say. I was curious because the most detailed description I've read is "a holster" in those ever accurate news stories.

 

[Garys]

I think that's one case that actually made national news. I'm willing to bet that things of that nature happen more often than is reported in newspapers. Some municipalities have notorious rivalries between PD's/FD's. Like others have said, yeah, it's probably a slim chance, but it's pretty stupid that a medic, EMT or FF potentially faces criminal charges for interacting with a firearm as part of their duties, even if the chances of successful prosecution are slim.

I can't predict what every police officer is going to do under a given set of circumstances, I can only state what my experience has been. Based on that I'm not in the least bit worried about it. Besides I don't work for a FD.

It's odd that the people most worried about a theoretical legal risk aren't the people involved in that sort of work.

Scene safety is very much a matter of judgment. If I know that there is still an assault in progress, the shooter is reported to be on the scene, or some active threat, I'm not inclined to rush right in. Most of the time, the bad guy is gone well before I get there.

We do a very bad job of teaching scene safety in this business. It's generally taught by rote, but a lot of people don't really think about it.

 

[cekim]

If someone is clearly incapacitated and has a properly holstered sidearm I would likely inquire about it if possible and cautiously proceed to provide care. If something was out of place or even my instincts said something was not right with the situation I would wait for police to secure the scene first. This isn't me thinking out loud. This is the job.

That sounds pretty darn reasonable...

In contrast to some of the blather on that site...

It's the "I won't go near it if there is a firearm - period" or "no gun gets into my truck - period" fools that concern me...

 

[jcr]

waste band

Interesting concept!

Is it a place to hold used tissues? A colostomy bag?

Or, going in a different direction, "The Black Eyed Peas"?

<g>

 

[GSG]

It's odd that the people most worried about a theoretical legal risk aren't the people involved in that sort of work.

ZING! You got me.

I have friends and family in the business, but not me, I don't like fixing injuries. The only medical work I've done was assisting with stitches, abscess draining, wound cleaning, etc. on a medical boat in the Amazon River, 3 days from the nearest telephone...we can talk old machete wounds if you want, but I have zero experience here in the US. Well, none other than the occasional "Holy sh**, sit down and try to hold that flap of skin in place until the ambulance arrives."

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

This actually sounds like an issue that needs to be addressed in this state. As a former EMT and paramedic, we never ran across this problem or were trained for it. This was several years ago and I was not a gun owner then. Not sure if things have changed since 2004, but if not, I think we need something to deal with the issue. Claiming the "scene safe" issue is not going to work. There are legal gun owners that need help from emergency personnel. Jim Wallace....is there something GOAL can do to make the major ambulance providers aware of the issue and how best to deal with it????

Kevin

 

[Bob P]

I agree with a lot of the people on that thread. It would depend on the nature of the call. If it's not a rush and if it's at the person's house, I would ask the person to disarm and leave the gun at home (complications could arise at the hospital when they don't have anything to do with their gun in a place that has a no firearms policy). If it's not a rush and not at home, I would ask the person to disarm and have an LEO hold the gun until they can pick it up. We could wait for an LEO to get there if needed for a non-rush call. If it's an emergency situation where time is critical, I would ask them to disarm or disarm them (if they're not conscious). If there's an LEO right there, they can hold it. But if not, I would unload it and put it in the ambulance with the rest of his belongings and give it to an LEO ASAP.

I think the only time it gets more complicated than that would be if a person refuses to give up his weapon. That would be the time to call for instructions and CYA.

I say all this not actually working as an EMT, just with certification, so people who have actual experience might have a better idea than me for what to do.

A very reasoned and reasonable response. Thank you.

 

[DoubleA]

For EMTs and Medics, OSHA recently released a guide for EMS employers.

http://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3370-protecting-EMS-respondersSM.pdf

 

[Garys]

Interesting, but doesn't really apply to the topic at hand.

 

[WILDCATT]

carry

the EMT should treat the person.thats what he/she is hired to do.I had a friend that was knocked of his motercycle on 495 in Milford area.they simply took his pistol and gave it back afterward.no hassle.is it getting that bad in Mass that so many are paranoid.it sadens me to see what Mass people have turned in to.many schools had junior rifle clubs,and churches sponsered them.
to bad you cant get printouts of the many in Mass. the NRA had pages of clubs and scores.W.R.Hearst sponsered a national postol match.I shot in high school,and out team was always in top three winners.Malden High.now they dont even remember.

 

[DoubleA]

Interesting, but doesn't really apply to the topic at hand.

Sorry, thought there was a captive audience. We'll start a new thread next time.

 

[chadams11281]

I am an EMT working for a Fire Dept. on Cape Cod. I recently encountered a Pt. in an MVC with a concealed firearm. I took the firearm during my primary assessment handed it to my partner/driver, who has an LTC Class A as do I, and continued my treatment as any good EMT would do. If you would not, then you should lose your job.

 

[03roushs1]

I am an EMT working for a Fire Dept. on Cape Cod. I recently encountered a Pt. in an MVC with a concealed firearm. I took the firearm during my primary assessment handed it to my partner/driver, who has an LTC Class A as do I, and continued my treatment as any good EMT would do. If you would not, then you should lose your job.

Unfortunately, not everybody sees it that way. Which side the legal system would side with is an interesting debate.

 

[terraformer]

I am an EMT working for a Fire Dept. on Cape Cod. I recently encountered a Pt. in an MVC with a concealed firearm. I took the firearm during my primary assessment handed it to my partner/driver, who has an LTC Class A as do I, and continued my treatment as any good EMT would do. If you would not, then you should lose your job.

Now here's a man who knows how to do his damned job and not try to set public policy from the back of an ambulance. I do have concerns that as more EMT services are privatized the private company's lawyers will force the situation and train EMTs to do otherwise. Then only the ones who know better will act properly.

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

Well, the question is can the EMT/Paramedic legally posess the firearm? I say include it in the training and make that part of laws that the emergency worker can take temporary control of the firearm. To be honest, this is really a lot of crap. When did we throw out common sense? In England a man was convicted of illegally posessing a firearm because he turned it into the police. Not sure we are all that far behind....kind of scary

 

[troda]

A work as a medic on the Cape as well. Local pd held a safe gunhandling course for the FD. "Keep you're finger off the trigger" "ALways point in a safe direction" etc.
Also work for private contracted to provide ALS coverage. This has no bearing on perception of firearms.
Scene safety is a matter of perception. We also have to assume a certain level of risk in our jobs. For me a LTC holder with a handgun is no different than a carpenter with a hammer. As stated before, if the pt is acting in a threatening manner. A higher level of discretion is waranted.
Remember Common sense isn't common. We live in a world where people are either trying to ban dodgeball because its too violent. Or there killing people with a machete to see what its like.

 

[pc.geek]

The guy from Maine put up a good fight.
I would buy "mcdonl" a beer or coffee anytime.

 

[Garys]

Well, the question is can the EMT/Paramedic legally posess the firearm? I say include it in the training and make that part of laws that the emergency worker can take temporary control of the firearm. To be honest, this is really a lot of crap. When did we throw out common sense? In England a man was convicted of illegally posessing a firearm because he turned it into the police. Not sure we are all that far behind....kind of scary

Apparently it's only a worry among people who aren't EMTs or paramedics. None that I know think about it twice.

There are a lot of important things that we can't get included in training, firearms training isn't even on the list.

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

Well I WAS an EMT and then Paramedic (2002 - 2005). Now since I didn't know about gun laws at the time, it really wouldn't have stopped me from providing care. However, with the way that the Communistwealth is going, I think it should be included in future training and specific laws/regulations that allow for an emergency worker to take temporary control of a firearm for someone that they are caring for.