Advice on my first 308

[Diggs]

I love my DPMS LR308 AP4 and it seems plenty accurate to me although I must admit it don't make a habit of trying 600yrd shots.

I think Grendel is right. Most of todays AR's are extremely accurate. In fact Armalite guarantees sub moa accuracy, and DPMS states "most" production barrels will perform to sub 1.5 moa. Hence, Armalite is more expensive.

 

[andy t]

Bolt action rifles are always inherently more accurate. The reason for the military adopting SR has to do with multiple target engagements in urban warfare situations - where the max range is usually less than in open field.
Read the following for some insight:
SR 25 review my USMC sniper

 

[Diggs]

Todays advancements in manufacturing have made the idea that "Bolt action rifles are always inherently more accurate" less true than it used to be. With tighter fitting tolerances that todays CNC machines can easily produce, they are able to produce very accurate production rifles. So, you can have it both ways.

Bolt action rifles are extremely accurate, consistant, and rugged but todays AR's are not to be sneezed at when it comes to accuracy. They do require more care for sure, but you get the obvious benefit of semi-auto, high capacity action.

IMHO, the AR's of yesteryear or the average AR used by the military should not be compared to an out-of-the-box civilian AR(treated with care) or what a military competitor/sniper would use. They are not the same.

 

[Underwhere]

I think I'll try and shoulder some today. Going to move some furniture with the girlfriend. I'll just try and make he pass out in the car so she won't realize where we're going.

 

[TonyDedo]

Underwear, you saw the Rem 700 SPS I picked up (for nearly nothing, I might add). The SPS is the "cheap" end of the 700 series, but the action is the same as any of the other rifles in the series, and the barrel is very respectable. They cut costs on the cheap stock and scope. But that's fine, because I'm just learning to shoot it - I'm not going to benefit much from a nice bedded stock or $1k scope just yet. But as I learn, I'll make the upgrades and grow along with my rifle.

That being said, if you're around this weekend or during the week, I have no problem meeting up at the MRA so you can put some rounds down range. In fact, I'd like to chrono some reloads I just finished, but I don't have a chrono yet - if you bring yours, I'll consider that a fair trade.

 

[wolf223]

i was up at North Shore Firearms the other day and they had a brand new 10FP in .308 btw. $589 / cash price.

Collectors in Stoneham always has a savage or 2 on the used rack and one or three on the new rack. last time i was there, they had the ACU pattern .308 "carbine"... basically a model 10 or 12 w / digi camo.... price was little steep IMO.

anywho, look forward to see whatcha get

 

[gene]

I got $20 that says you can't.

You might want to hook up with me at the Danvers Fish and Game some Saturday as I am there almost all of them and we will see. By the way, thats bench with a scope before you put your money up.

 

[gene]

I'm shopping a .308 right now as well, I've heard nothing but good about this one.

THats the one I picked up at Northshore Firearms with the fluted barrel and compensator. I did the research and found the same thing and it has a great feel. accutrigger and accustock.

 

[gene]

[chetD;1087031]i was up at North Shore Firearms the other day and they had a brand new 10FP in .308 btw. $589 / cash price.

Thinks I may have bought it if it had a fluted barrel but I paid $739.00 which was still an Okay price from what I have read.

 

[Underwhere]

Underwear, you saw the Rem 700 SPS I picked up (for nearly nothing, I might add). The SPS is the "cheap" end of the 700 series, but the action is the same as any of the other rifles in the series, and the barrel is very respectable. They cut costs on the cheap stock and scope. But that's fine, because I'm just learning to shoot it - I'm not going to benefit much from a nice bedded stock or $1k scope just yet. But as I learn, I'll make the upgrades and grow along with my rifle.

That being said, if you're around this weekend or during the week, I have no problem meeting up at the MRA so you can put some rounds down range. In fact, I'd like to chrono some reloads I just finished, but I don't have a chrono yet - if you bring yours, I'll consider that a fair trade.

I'm up for that. That'll make 3 days in a row I've been at MRA. I'll PM you.

 

[Underwhere]

I stopped by Collectors and FS today.

I tried on a number of 700's and Savage 10's.
I picked up a savage 12 with a 24" heavy barrel. Man that thing was really freakin heavy.

I honestly can't really tell the difference in shouldering either of these rifles.

I tried on the 700 SPS and like the weight of it and I think they coat the bolt with teflon or something as it seemed to slide easier.

 

[Underwhere]

Now some stupid questions:

What makes something a "varmint" rifle?
What are the practical differences between a short and long action?

 

[Jasper]

Now some stupid questions:

What makes something a "varmint" rifle?
What are the practical differences between a short and long action?

varmint rifles are just what they sound like. rifles set up for taking woodchucks, groundhogs, prarie dogs, etc, at fairly long range

(the whole idea being a ~2"x2" target @ 200-500yards, typically on a cold bore shot). a lot of "varmint" guys use some oddball ammunition too (.30-06 ackley improved, .243ackley, etc)



long action vs short action is also self explanatory. long throw of the bolt (rearward) vs. short throw.

short throw = .223 / .308
long throw = .300win mag, etc

 

[Jose]

I stopped by Collectors and FS today.

I tried on a number of 700's and Savage 10's.
I picked up a savage 12 with a 24" heavy barrel. Man that thing was really freakin heavy.

I honestly can't really tell the difference in shouldering either of these rifles.

I tried on the 700 SPS and like the weight of it and I think they coat the bolt with teflon or something as it seemed to slide easier.

You are going to be shooting these rifles from the prone position and most likely supported by a Harris bipod.

Their weight is inconsequential.

 

[Rye]

R700 SPS comes with Hogue stock. Not great. It's a free floated barrel but the stock is too flimsy when on a bipod or bag and the barrel will touch the stock, so not really free-floated at that point. The 700p is the same action but it comes with a HS Precision stock. Fully floated, aluminum bedding, nice palm swell. I have it in a 26" bbl (.308) and it is a really nice rifle.

I was tossed between the Savage and the R700 and ended up going for the R700P.

As for glass, do yourself a BIG favor and take a look at the Bushnell Elite 4200. The absolute best bang for the buck. ~$600 new, depending on where you go. It is based off the Old Bausch and Lomb tactical scopes (Bushnell bought them). The glass rivals Leupold Mark4 and is comparable to some of the $1000-1500 scopes. It's a second focal plain scope, and uses a nice mildot reticle, the turrets are nice, and comes with a nice 5" aluminum sunshade. Has plenty of elevation to go to 600yds. and just enough for 1000yds (if you can find a 1000yd range within 200 miles of Boston). I have a 20MOA canted base on mine and it just zero's @ 100. It is a fine scope (and I've done a lot of research on this topic).

 

[Jose]

Another moderate cost but high quality scope is Burris.

 

[FalArAk]

You might want to hook up with me at the Danvers Fish and Game some Saturday as I am there almost all of them and we will see. By the way, thats bench with a scope before you put your money up.

Oh,I thought you said it was easy.

 

[Underwhere]

R700 SPS comes with Hogue stock. Not great. It's a free floated barrel but the stock is too flimsy when on a bipod or bag and the barrel will touch the stock, so not really free-floated at that point. The 700p is the same action but it comes with a HS Precision stock. Fully floated, aluminum bedding, nice palm swell. I have it in a 26" bbl (.308) and it is a really nice rifle.

I was tossed between the Savage and the R700 and ended up going for the R700P.

As for glass, do yourself a BIG favor and take a look at the Bushnell Elite 4200. The absolute best bang for the buck. ~$600 new, depending on where you go. It is based off the Old Bausch and Lomb tactical scopes (Bushnell bought them). The glass rivals Leupold Mark4 and is comparable to some of the $1000-1500 scopes. It's a second focal plain scope, and uses a nice mildot reticle, the turrets are nice, and comes with a nice 5" aluminum sunshade. Has plenty of elevation to go to 600yds. and just enough for 1000yds (if you can find a 1000yd range within 200 miles of Boston). I have a 20MOA canted base on mine and it just zero's @ 100. It is a fine scope (and I've done a lot of research on this topic).

Thanks for the advice. One thing I know nothing about is scopes and I just want to take someone's experienced advice rather than research it at this point. I have too many hobbies, and too much work to school myself on everything.

Another moderate cost but high quality scope is Burris.

Thanks for the advice also. Which one?

 

[Underwhere]

Here are my choices and prices:

Savage
10FP ~ $558

Remington
700 SPS 84207R ~ $563
700 SPS Stainless 7136R ~ $578
700 SPS Varmint 84218 ~ $530
700 VTR 84371 ~ $647

Tikka T3
T3 Lite JRTE316 ~ $504
T3 Lite Stainless JRTB316 ~ $576
T3 Varmint JRTH316 ~ $713

Savage 10FP $558
24" barrel
8 1/2 pounds

http://www.savagearms.com/10fp.htm

AccuTrigger
matte blued barreled action
heavy free-floating and button-rifled barrel
internal box magazine
swivel stud for bipod
oversized bolt handle

Remington 700 SPS $563
24" Barrel
7 1/4 pounds

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_SPS.asp

improved, ergonomically designed synthetic stock
matte blued finish
hinged floor plate magazine
swivel studs

Remington 700 SPS Stainless $578
24" Barrel
7 1/4 pounds
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_SPS_Stainless.asp

improved, ergonomically designed synthetic stock
matte blued finish
bead blasted 416 stainless steel barreled action
internal fire control components are plated
hinged floor plate magazine
swivel studs

Remington 700 SPS Varmint $530
26" Heavy Barrel
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_SPS_varmint.asp

26" heavy contour barrel
black synthetic stock has a vented beavertail fore-end
non-reflective matte blued finish on the barrel and receiver
hinged floorplate magazine
sling swivel studs

Remington 700 VTR $647
22" Barrel
7 1/2 pounds
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_vtr.asp

22" triangular barrel contour -reducing weight, enhancing rigidity and promoting rapid heat dissipation.
integral muzzle brake that’s machined-in during production

Tikka T3 Lite $504
22 7/16" Barrel
6 3/16 pounds
http://www.tikka.fi/t3models.php?lite

all-black stock and a blued barrel
light but sturdy T3 TrueBody fiber glass reinforced polymer stock
Positive checkering provides for comfort and firm grip in all weather conditions.

Tikka T3 Lite Stainless $576
22 7/16" Barrel
6 3/16 pounds
http://www.tikka.fi/t3models.php?litess

all-black stock and a blued barrel
light but sturdy T3 TrueBody fiber glass reinforced polymer stock
Positive checkering provides for comfort and firm grip in all weather conditions.
Cold-hammer forged, free-floating stainless steel barrel and stainless steel action.

Tikka T3 Varmint $713
23 and 3/4" barrel
8 pounds
http://www.tikka.fi/t3models.php?varmint

The synthetic stock has an extra-wide fore-end for bench resting
and the swivel stud accommodates both a bipod or a sling
The ergonomically-designed Varmint cheek piece
The standard single-column detachable clip magazine holds 5-6 catridges.

 

[Underwhere]

take a look at the Bushnell Elite 4200. The absolute best bang for the buck. ~$600 new, depending on where you go.

There seem to be many variations.

Which one do you recommend?
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-Elite-4200-Rifle-Scopes-C71.aspx

 

[gerrycaruso]

I have the Elite 4200 on my M1A and like it. The scope sits higher on the M1A than on a bolt gun and requires a a higher comb. I couldn't find a high enough pad and had to make my own. Smith makes a nice one but it was too low.

 

[Rye]

From what it sounds like, your intended use is similar to mine. I have no access to 1000yd ranges (600 is what I have access to) so I didn't need much higher end glass. Read up and you'll see there are enough features with the Elite 4200 that you'll satisfy your needs. I use the 6-24X50 Tactical (model 6-2450T). It's a 30mm tube. Light transmission seems to be better than the 40mm objective version. I am running Burris XTR low tactical rings and the scope sits about 1/4" above the barrel...which is about as close as you want (actually about 1/8" because I'm also using Butler Creek flip-ups). A good point was brought up in one of the most recent posts. The comb is a tad bit low. This is probably going to be the case with the savage too and would really be a function of just about any scope you purchase. If you get the Savage with the MacMillan stock it may be a bnit better, but I have still heard guys complaining about their cheek weld being too low. It is too low for me too and I plan on purchasing the Karsten cheek piece to bring my eyepiece in line. I battled with having to drill the stock for this add-on but it just makes sense as there are few functional, cleanly designed offerings on the market.

 

[Rye]

Underwear...go to snipercentral.com and order a scope from Mel. He's site owner/admin. You will see a review section for a lot of scopes. In mid-range price, say $500-$750, you will find it hard to beat the 4200. Check out some posts and they will for the most part confirm what I say. The 4200 has less adjustment for elevation, but as I mentioned, think of your intended use. It plain made sense to me.

As for the rifle. You have another option. A lot of guys have purchased the 700 SPS (which is the same bbl and action as the 700 P). They ditched the Hogue stock for a Macmillan, HS Precision, etc and saved ~$100-150 over purchasing a base 700p. For me that $100-150 savings would have been eaten up with gunsmithing costs as I wouldn't do the stock conversion myself. I was personally comfortable with the HS Precision stock that comes standard with the P model so it was a wash for me. But in the end you will gain one thing...a stock of your choice for the same amount as the P model.

 

[qmmo]

If you have a C&R (03 FFL) you can open a "dealer" account with MidwayUSA and then you will find those $1000 scopes for about $700 or so depending on manufacturer. Its been a while, but the Leupold Mark 4 that was going for $900 some years ago I was able to pick up for $550. The cost of a C&R is only thirty bucks.

 

[Rye]

If you have a C&R (03 FFL) you can open a "dealer" account with MidwayUSA and then you will find those $1000 scopes for about $700 or so depending on manufacturer. Its been a while, but the Leupold Mark 4 that was going for $900 some years ago I was able to pick up for $550. The cost of a C&R is only thirty bucks.

Hi Allen...where were you back in the spring!!!

It's Ryan

 

[qmmo]

Hi Allen...where were you back in the spring!!!

It's Ryan

Use email. I shut off PM.

 

[Underwhere]

From what it sounds like, your intended use is similar to mine. I have no access to 1000yd ranges (600 is what I have access to) so I didn't need much higher end glass. Read up and you'll see there are enough features with the Elite 4200 that you'll satisfy your needs. I use the 6-24X50 Tactical (model 6-2450T). It's a 30mm tube. Light transmission seems to be better than the 40mm objective version. I am running Burris XTR low tactical rings and the scope sits about 1/4" above the barrel...which is about as close as you want (actually about 1/8" because I'm also using Butler Creek flip-ups). A good point was brought up in one of the most recent posts. The comb is a tad bit low. This is probably going to be the case with the savage too and would really be a function of just about any scope you purchase. If you get the Savage with the MacMillan stock it may be a bnit better, but I have still heard guys complaining about their cheek weld being too low. It is too low for me too and I plan on purchasing the Karsten cheek piece to bring my eyepiece in line. I battled with having to drill the stock for this add-on but it just makes sense as there are few functional, cleanly designed offerings on the market.

Thanks!

If you have a C&R (03 FFL) you can open a "dealer" account with MidwayUSA and then you will find those $1000 scopes for about $700 or so depending on manufacturer. Its been a while, but the Leupold Mark 4 that was going for $900 some years ago I was able to pick up for $550. The cost of a C&R is only thirty bucks.

I have my dealer account on midway.

This one here is still 1265 though
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=979204
$550?? Damn I wish I knew that back then.

 

[wolf223]

check out www.sightwonders.com

the falcon line is pretty good. i just ordered a WOTAC from them earlier last week (en route)...

 

[Jose]

Thanks for the advice also. Which one?

It depends on your intended use. You need to check their catalog and post up a few that you think would meet your needs and why. Then we can discuss whether we agree or not.

 

[Underwhere]

It depends on your intended use. You need to check their catalog and post up a few that you think would meet your needs and why. Then we can discuss whether we agree or not.

I don't have a clue about scopes and had to Google what the markings mean:

So I think if I go to appleseed shoots and want to hit human size targets out at 600 yards a 4-16 x 40 would work out. I have a feeling though that someday I'll really want to push it out and try a stationary paper target at 1000 yards or something insane like that.

The 50mm objective is a little more pricey and I really don't know how much more light the 50 will let in vs the 40. i.e. is it worth spending $240 more for it.

The Bushnell is cheaper so I'm not sure whether I should go for higher magnification than 16x...or whether that'll be detrimental.

Leupold 4.5-14 x50 for only $910
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=390474

Leopold 4.5-14 x 40 for 671
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=427910

Then you have the Bushnell 4200 series
Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24 x 50 for 586
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=234058

Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24 x 40 for 469
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=177944

Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16 x 50 for 599
http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnel...-magnum-recoil-proof-riflescope-424165sf.html

Bushnell Elite 4200 4-x x 40 for 499
http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnel...coil-proof-rainguard-riflescope-424164sf.html