9mm rifle

[LORD of WAR]

any of you guys own 9mm rifles/carbines out there?

ive wanted one for awhile but cant decide which platform to go fo...i had a hipoint and didnt like it...plus i want something that take more than 10 rounds

i'm a fan of the hk platform and was considering an mp5 clone
ive shot the real thing but clearly cant afford one

the big players now are bobcat who are soon to be out of business and coharie arms formerly speacial weapons...ive heard vectors are the best but they ran out of 9mm rifles awhile ago...the coharies go for $1000 while the bobcats...whats left of them...go for closer to $1600

ive also shot the beretta cx4 but not a fan of the ergonomics of the rifle...not one for thumbhole stocks...plus i think max capacity is 15 rounds or a few 20 round knockoff mags that im sure arent preban

next would be a colt 9mm on the AR platform...i love the AR platform and was considering buying an upper in 9mm and just dropping a magblock into my preban lower...which makes the most sense monetarily speaking but i dunno if i wanna put that much wear and tear on one lower
so id either have to keep the full stock on a postban or find a complete preban rifle

i was also thinking of a nice lightweight carbon 15 in 9mm

any thoughts/suggestions/recommendations????

 

[FPrice]

ive also shot the beretta cx4 but not a fan of the ergonomics of the rifle...not one for thumbhole stocks...plus i think max capacity is 15 rounds or a few 20 round knockoff mags that im sure arent preban

I have a Beretta and like it. There are pre-ban 20-rounders out there but they are hard to find.

My next choice would probably be the AR-15 style.

 

[jhrosier]

I have both a Kel-Tec Sub2000 and a Ruger PC4. They are both in .40 S&W, but are also available in 9mm. They are both fun plinkers from 25 to 50 yards. The PC4 is about the same size as an M1 carbine, but heavier. It takes Ruger pistol mags so the preban mags would hold up to 17 rounds in 9mm. The Kel-Tec is available in several configurations, for Glock, Beretta, Sig, or S&W mags. If you are after maximum capacity, the Glock mag model would probably be the best bet.
The Kel-Tec weighs about four pounds and folds (non-firing position) to 16.1 inches long.
The Ruger has built in scope bases. The Kel-tec can be scoped, but it is a real project.
The Ruger was recently discontinued and last retailed for about $600. Used ones turn up for around $400.
The Kel-tec retails for $385 with a steet price of about $325. The Sub2000 is produced from time to time, in batches, so you may have to wait until your choice is manufactured.
While pistol caliber carbines can be fun to plink with, even the best of them is no match for a decent AK or AR in accuracy or range.
My favorite pistol caliber carbine so far is a Winchester '94 in .357 Mag. It will easily outshoot the other two. It is, however, slower to load.

 

[LoginName]

any of you guys own 9mm rifles/carbines out there?

ive wanted one for awhile but cant decide which platform to go fo...i had a hipoint and didnt like it...plus i want something that take more than 10 rounds

i'm a fan of the hk platform and was considering an mp5 clone
ive shot the real thing but clearly cant afford one

the big players now are bobcat who are soon to be out of business and coharie arms formerly speacial weapons...ive heard vectors are the best but they ran out of 9mm rifles awhile ago...the coharies go for $1000 while the bobcats...whats left of them...go for closer to $1600

Run away... don't walk... from anything that involves Todd "Toad" Bailey (Special Weapons/Coharie Arms... whatever he's calling himself these days.

Ask around in other gun related forums about Todd and his products... it's never good news.

 

[kenc]

I have owned a preban colt 9mm and an IMI uzi model B and had a lot of fun with both. I got rid of both of them though and got a bobcat when they came out. I have a SBR bobcat and it is one of the guns that comes to the range with me everytime I go. The bobcats are a great clone and I have run hundreds of rounds through mine with little problems. I was lucky to get mine while they were still in production and were cheaper. Zero Hour has one and honestly I cant tell people enough who want an MP5 clone to pick one up now while they can. I have owned a special weapons SW5 and it was a POS and also the vulcan clones run on direct blowback instead of roller delayed blowback and are also something I wouldnt touch. Plus when you buy a Bobcat then get your tax stamp it takes about 15 minutes to turn one into a SBR.

 

[LORD of WAR]

jhrosier...the keltec and ruger never really appealed to me but thanks for the input!

Ask around in other gun related forums about Todd and his products... it's never good news.

LN...i know about todd's reputation...from what i understand his new brand, coharie arms is supposedly the real deal. he was the sole supplier of parts for vector, special weapons and bobcat, and has decided to cease to sell his parts to these companies anymore and concentrate solely on his own new firm coharie...i guess the latest generation of receivers and frames he's using are the best one out there according to guys on arf.com and hkpro.com...from what has been said these guns are highly more reliable than any of the other clones out there and that todd has stepped up his customer service...of the guys ive been communicating with over on those boards they seem to be very impressed with their 9mm rifles and pistols...i'd like to wait to hear from a few more customers but i also dont want to wait until his prices jump either

kenc...so youre the guy that jim and donny were telling me about! they were endorsing the gun telling me about yours...the only thing holding me back from buying that bobcat is that the company is going under and if something happens with the gun i now have a $1700 hunk of metal with no recourse to fix it...also ive heard its hit or miss with the bobcats and that the new coharie guns were far superior to the bobcats...if i could take that gun out and run some rounds down the tub to make sure it worked right i would definately buy it...i guess its something ill have to talk to jim about

the problem with the bobcat is that if i run into trouble i know i can get the proper hk parts to replace it...but after that i'm looking close to around the same cost of what the actual hk would cost...where as the coharie...if i spend $500 on parts...its still only about half as much as a real hk

 

[hminsky]

I also want a 9mm carbine, but I have a Marlin 1894C, which is .357 magnum, and I like it a whole lot. I got a sight for it http://skinnersights.com/
which made a big difference, as the factory sights are pretty lame.


It's hard to justify a 9mm carbine when I have this thing, and also a Winchester 44 magnum lever carbine.

 

[LoginName]

jhrosier...the keltec and ruger never really appealed to me but thanks for the input!



LN...i know about todd's reputation...from what i understand his new brand, coharie arms is supposedly the real deal. he was the sole supplier of parts for vector, special weapons and bobcat, and has decided to cease to sell his parts to these companies anymore and concentrate solely on his own new firm coharie...i guess the latest generation of receivers and frames he's using are the best one out there according to guys on arf.com and hkpro.com...from what has been said these guns are highly more reliable than any of the other clones out there and that todd has stepped up his customer service...of the guys ive been communicating with over on those boards they seem to be very impressed with their 9mm rifles and pistols...i'd like to wait to hear from a few more customers but i also dont want to wait until his prices jump either

That's a surprise. I'm just wondering how long it will last until a customer calls him with a problem and toad tells him to "f***-off" or threaten to sue him?

Here's one glowing revue of Todd Baileys products for those unfamiliar with the ass...

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/sw5/pagesw5.htm

(Apparently he had some involvement with Bobcat Weapons as well).

 

[drgrant]

IMO, build up an 9mm AR and be done with it. Lots of new gadgets
coming onto the market for 9mm ARs. The good thing is they
take readily availiable mags- like UZI mags, stens, etc.

A real HK94 wouldn't be bad, either... problem is they're damed pricey at
about $2500 or so.

-Mike

 

[SKS Ray]

If you're not worried about legality, Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbines in 9mm can take 33 round Glock mags.

 

[LORD of WAR]

A real HK94 wouldn't be bad, either... problem is they're damed pricey at
about $2500 or so.

i wiiiiiiiish i could find one that cheap...if i could id buy it...i was on gunbroker earlier just messing around...nothing less than $3400

(Apparently he had some involvement with Bobcat Weapons as well).

bobcat was his friends business...he supplied/supplies all the companys with the parts to make these clones

maybe i will just stick with the 9mm AR idea...but i have yet to find a company that sells the 9mm barrels without a flashhider...unless im not looking in the right places...anyone have any experience with bushmasters carbon 15 series of rifle????

 

[drgrant]

i wiiiiiiiish i could find one that cheap...if i could id buy it...i was on gunbroker earlier just messing around...nothing less than $3400

IIRC CDNN still had some CA DOJ HK 94s floating around for like $2500
ish.

-Mike

 

[firtree]

I've looked at a Carbon 15...and walked away. They are super light and
feel good, but have a terrible reputation for breaking bolts.

i wiiiiiiiish i could find one that cheap...if i could id buy it...i was on gunbroker earlier just messing around...nothing less than $3400



bobcat was his friends business...he supplied/supplies all the companys with the parts to make these clones

maybe i will just stick with the 9mm AR idea...but i have yet to find a company that sells the 9mm barrels without a flashhider...unless im not looking in the right places...anyone have any experience with bushmasters carbon 15 series of rifle????

 

[MassMark]

I may be in the minority here, but I LOVE my IMI Uzi Model B. I bought it as a "regret purchase" after regretting selling off my original Model B I purchased in the 80's after some financial troubles several years ago. The worst part is, it turned out I didn't need to sell it after all, as my woes cleared up shortly after I cashed the check!!! Desperation does funny things doesn't it???

I understand Vector has stopped making the full-size, but they can be had for $600-800. IMI's like mine of course are at a premium, but I bought mine NIB (I mean NEW - completely unfired) last year with all accessories and several 25 and 32 round mags for $1300 with a case of WWB. I will never part with this rifle again!!! Even if I have to live in a tent!!!

I am currently undergoing the SBR process and love the switchability of barrels and calibers. You can shoot 9mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig with nothing but a barrel change! Plus, with 9mm, it's accurate as hell - (below is a 100-yard grouping). Notice the target board. My first attempts at 100-yards, I was purposely aiming high and hit where Iw as aiming, (above the target). My next attempt, I shot point on and pasted the target. I have had similar results at 200 yards - though a little more spread out. I never, ever had a jam with my first IMI and after 3,000 rounds have not had a single failure with my second. It is on the heavy side, but lift some weights for God's sake...

 

[icyclefar]

In order of my preference .......

UZI model A (own one)

AR upper set up for 9mm (someday)

 

[hminsky]

Can you just put a 9mm upper on a regular AR .223 lower? Or do you need to change the hammer and bolt-buffer (and anything else?)?

 

[PatMcD]

next would be a colt 9mm on the AR platform...i love the AR platform and was considering buying an upper in 9mm and just dropping a magblock into my preban lower...which makes the most sense monetarily speaking but i dunno if i wanna put that much wear and tear on one lower

I wouldn't worry about the lower. 9mm has way less pressure than .223. I can see no "wear-n-tear" issues.

 

[LORD of WAR]

massmark...never considered an uzi before but now that youve mentioned it it did get me thinking...how is the take down on those for field stripping and cleaning?

there are a few nice ones on gunbroker but the prices are up there too but its definately another rifle ill take into consideration

also...whats the difference between a model a and b?

 

[icyclefar]

massmark...never considered an uzi before but now that youve mentioned it it did get me thinking...how is the take down on those for field stripping and cleaning?

Nothing cleans easier than an UZI!

If you don't want to break it down, you can just soak the whole thing in a bucket of solvent.

Built simple, and rugged!

 

[MassMark]

Nothing cleans easier than an UZI!

If you don't want to break it down, you can just soak the whole thing in a bucket of solvent.

Built simple, and rugged!

+1

Bloodhound - The Uzi is the cream of the crop when it comes to 9mm carbines. I won't get into a we-wee match with HK94 owners, as I AM ONE! The HK is light and airy and all, but the Uzi is robust and tough as nails. I keep mine lubed with the same grease I use on my M1A, (Militec-1) and before that used Castrol GT! I just wipe it out with a rag most times and only thouroughly clean it when I'm in the mood. The entire weapon field strips without tools and unlike the HK, the barrel can be removed and swapped with the turn of a retainer nut. Want to SBR? Just buy another barrel. Want to change calibers? Just buy another barrel, (for .357 Sig and .40 S&W) and for.45 or .22 there's a kit. There's even GG lowers which will allow you to use grease gun mags for more .45 fun. Uzi mags are still plentiful - recent releases of IMI made German mags, (there's some irony eh?) have flooded the market with cheap reliable mags. Stay away from USA mags - they stink.

Sure you can buy an HK or an AR and be a happy camper, but the Uzi in my book is in a class by itself - the Israelis were not stupid... If you can, hold out for an original IMI - they are out there - many NIB! Vector makes a nice gun, but they're essentially "mixmasters" and the newest ones available are on Group receivers which I believe to have integrity issues. If you find a Vector, see if you can try before you buy if it's a private sale. Vector does however have great customer service and will make it right if it has problems, (most are just fine, but a few slip out).

The voice is now officially in your head....Uzi....Uzi....Uzi....Uzi...Come to the Dark Side....

 

[LORD of WAR]

im so easily swayed its sickening...pm inbound massmark

 

[MassMark]

im so easily swayed its sickening...pm inbound massmark

Arr-dy-arrr-dy-arrr....Once the Uzi bug bites you, there is no recovery.... Next apply for your SBR and the journey will be complete my son....

 

[LORD of WAR]

Arr-dy-arrr-dy-arrr....Once the Uzi bug bites you, there is no recovery.... Next apply for your SBR and the journey will be complete my son....

called the licensing officer in my town to inquire about it and he said no way and that it was a totally unneccessary request

 

[drgrant]

called the licensing officer in my town to inquire about it and he said no way and that it was a totally unneccessary request

You can get an SBR without a CLEO signoff. Just make a trust and
register it under the trust. No signoff, no fingerprints needed.


-Mike

 

[icyclefar]

You can get an SBR without a CLEO signoff. Just make a trust and
register it under the trust. No signoff, no fingerprints needed.


-Mike

I think that would have been my approach but it really makes me wonder

Would'nt the LEO like the opportunity to check me out, run my history, and give me the sign-off versus me going around him and using the "Trust" or "Corporation" approach.

The whole thing is just stupid.

 

[drgrant]

Would'nt the LEO like the opportunity to check me out, run my history, and give me the sign-off versus me going around him and using the "Trust" or "Corporation" approach.

Uhh, they have no way of knowing that you "went around them", as I doubt
there is any way they can easily determine the contents of a trust without
invoking some sort of legal action on their part. The local CLEO does
not get a letter in the mail from BATFE whenever someone down the street
gets an SBR or whatever.

The other advantage of a trust or corp is that it is possible for more than one
person to have access or usage rights for a given device. With a personal
signoff, there basically is none of that as the device is only registered to
one person, and not a broader legal entity. (like a trust or corp).

Even people in free states use Trusts and LLCs for NFA items because it is
faster and easier. Even ones that can get signoffs easily... sometimes its just a pain
waiting to get an appointment with the chief, etc. Also no fingerprints needed, either, IIRC.

-Mike

 

[icyclefar]

I guess in the end it's like filing for tax abatements................

Turn down everyone, then only deal with the few that appeal. (or know their way around the system as the case may be)

Final conclusion still stands ............. STUPID

 

[drgrant]

I guess in the end it's like filing for tax abatements................

Turn down everyone, then only deal with the few that appeal. (or know their way around the system as the case may be)

Final conclusion still stands ............. STUPID

I never said the NFA system was smart... but at the end of the day
we all want something, so hey if the end around works, use it. It's not
any different than the insanity requiring us to go to NH to pick up drop
shipments of ammo and the like.

-Mike

 

[Another_David]

I've considered the SBR option myself--has anyone actually established a trust in Massachusetts? Looking the Mass Sec. site it says the fee is $200 for the filing (first year) and then $75 ea. year thereafter. Am I looking at the right form? It seems kind of pricey.

See http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cor/corpweb/corvol/volinf.htm#vol7

Also, what's the procedure for purchasing a SBR already assembled?

 

[drgrant]

I've considered the SBR option myself--has anyone actually established a trust in Massachusetts? Looking the Mass Sec. site it says the fee is $200 for the filing (first year) and then $75 ea. year thereafter. Am I looking at the right form? It seems kind of pricey.

I don't think thats it at all- There is this notional of a "Living Trust".

See this sigforum thread for more info: Scroll down the page to RBMG's
post.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/669101014/p/3

A lot of people appear to be using quicken willmaker with good
results.

Also, what's the procedure for purchasing a SBR already assembled?

I think the ATF form changes but the basic the deal is the same- transfers
to whatever entity is specified on the form. You also would have to
move the item through a local dealer that handles
SBRs, etc. I know Auto Burst Tech (Zero Hour?) does them,
and there probably are a couple other NFA dealers in MA that do
them too.

FWIW, apparently there is an article on using trusts for NFA transfers in the Feb. issue
of SAR.

-Mike