7 Dead in Santa Barbara Shooting

[Nick Fury]

Again people always jump to conclusions about someone else's opinion, everyone here is always quick to label and judge, that doesnt seem very conservative of u.
I never said anything about the government getting involved, if it's made possible for the parents/family and Dr to make the final decisions on what happens to specific individuals such as people like Elliot and Adam, than I'm all for it.

Ok. So now that you made it clear where the responsibility lies how do you implement this? Because I suspect that is what many are having a problem with.

How would you get Adam Lanza mommy to not pull him from society when the treatment plans became distasteful?

How would you force the Rodger parents to do more than they supposedly did do?

And how do you hold any psychiatric help accountable for not seeing/acting on therapy info in a more aggressive fashion?

See where this is going? I do. So do many others it would seem.

 

[GPP]

Since we (as a society) have shifted the burden of caring for mentally ill from family to .gov, then yes. If a parent backed by mental health pro swears out some sort of mental health warrant then I am thinking that the cops should treat it like any warrant and take the person for the mental evaluation. This burden is higher than what is currently in place. It allows for the people and their doctors to make a preliminary decision that someone they know and love and have cared for is in need of immediate evaluation.

If .gov wasn't there (and assuming the supposedly ill person is local) you'd gather your friends and bring your adult child in for treatment yourself. The .gov prevents you from doing this!!! If you want to take .gov out of the equation completely, I would support that. But right now .gov is in the way of dealing with the problem.

Ok, this I agree with, and is already in effect ( in MA) anyways. Key point is the people ( family) and doctor ( s). That works all day. That is the basics of the section 12. What you ( and me) don't want, is the police gauging this on their own, I promise you. Right now, LE can section 12 someone on our own opinions, it's not something we make a habit of, and it's usually in concurrence with the classic " health and welfare" check called in by a family member that wants to pawn their problem off on police.

Many parents are still taking care of their adult children, and .gov supports this. It's the kids like Lanza and Rodgers that you can't catch before hand. This problem will never stop, people need to either adjust to this reality and plan accordingly, or watch their rights get trampled more than they are.

 

[wahsben]

Yup. Sadly we the people have failed in our responsibility to hold the govt. accountable for their actions and we have allowed our servants to become our masters.

I ran the numbers once, lost the spreadsheet, but the short version was:
1. Add up all the murders in the past 100 years
2. Add up all the genocide attributed to government policy
3. Divide #1 by the sum of human population
4. Divide #2 by the sum of politicians

It came out to politicians being ~6,000 more likely to kill with policy than any citizen to murder with a firearm.

Clearly we need Politician-Control (though we already have it on the books, it is the Bill of Rights, it just needs enforcement).

 

[GPP]

The police need not get involved unless the Dr and family tell the police that people are in danger. The mother admirably did recognize this and made the call, but the dumb ass police Decided to make their own decisions and they were wrong, THAT is the problem, if the police are told by the Dr and family that picking him up and bringing him to a mental facility for further evaluation is best, then do it, no questions.

The dumb ass police spoke with this kid, and he was fine. Now what? Because mom said he's crazy they should take him? This kid is ( was) a professional liar. He was also an adult. It's clear that you don't work in a field where you deal with people like this on a daily basis, and that may be a good thing. You're clearly looking to blame this on the cops, and that's fine. I'd love to take you out and about on my job, and let you interact with some of these types.

 

[fencer]

Then of course you have to have the faith in the medical community that it will support those parents when need be.

And why would people have faith in the medical community? You are more likely to be accidently killed or injured by the medical community than just about anything you do. Most estimates hover at right around 200,000 accidental medical deaths per year.
I think that allowing the medical community more influence over what children stay with their families and what children do not will be as effective as letting Hillary Clinton decide how much security an embassy needs.

Mental health providers will always say people need help because they get paid to give that help.

 

[Blitz1]

 

[dogdoctor]

And why would people have faith in the medical community? You are more likely to be accidently killed or injured by the medical community than just about anything you do. Most estimates hover at right around 200,000 accidental medical deaths per year.

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post.

I recognize that most people are skeptical of the health system between due to access to and costs. Then there is the mental health care section that is seriously lacking in reform.

But you know...if that's your general attitude towards health care and health care professionals, then seriously don't get any medical help. I'm so tired of the "medical community kills" crap. Do the math. What percentage is that 200,000 deaths/year of total patients seen/year. More importantly what is the percentage of patients healed that would have otherwise be worse off or died without said care. If you really believe that you are more likely to injured by the medical community than just about anything you do, then don't bother getting care. Skip getting insurance and for God's sake don't get vaccines or become sick. And if you do get sick, and you will, then don't bother coming in for care. I for one am tired of paying for the sorry asses of people who say they don't want/need medical help cause they think they don't need it, but when they ultimately become very ill, they come crawling into the ER demanding care from the same people they spew so much hatred about. /rant

I think that allowing the medical community more influence over what children stay with their families and what children do not will be as effective as letting Hillary Clinton decide how much security an embassy needs.

I agree to a point, but then who do you propose makes that decision when it becomes clear that parents can't or are unwilling to make a decision and about child that is either for the best interest of the child or the best interest of the people associated with that child.

Mental health providers will always say people need help because they get paid to give that help.

Clearly you distrust them, but what is your real point? You could say the same thing just about any profession.

 

[CosmicIrony]

No, he wasn't just another pretty boy. He was a typical Democrat.

In what way was he a typical Democrat? I haven't heard of any Democrats calling for women to be put in concentration camps.

 

[Blitz1]

There's a difference between psychopaths and sociopaths.

This assclown was a sociopath imo.

Just sayin'

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psychopath_vs_Sociopath

 

[Bill Katt]

There's a difference between psychopaths and sociopaths.

This assclown was a sociopath imo.

Just sayin'

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psychopath_vs_Sociopath

Yup.

 

[fencer]

I recognize that most people are skeptical of the health system between due to access to and costs. Then there is the mental health care section that is seriously lacking in reform.

But you know...if that's your general attitude towards health care and health care professionals, then seriously don't get any medical help. I'm so tired of the "medical community kills" crap. Do the math. What percentage is that 200,000 deaths/year of total patients seen/year. More importantly what is the percentage of patients healed that would have otherwise be worse off or died without said care. If you really believe that you are more likely to injured by the medical community than just about anything you do, then don't bother getting care. Skip getting insurance and for God's sake don't get vaccines or become sick. And if you do get sick, and you will, then don't bother coming in for care. I for one am tired of paying for the sorry asses of people who say they don't want/need medical help cause they think they don't need it, but when they ultimately become very ill, they come crawling into the ER demanding care from the same people they spew so much hatred about. /rant

I agree to a point, but then who do you propose makes that decision when it becomes clear that parents can't or are unwilling to make a decision and about child that is either for the best interest of the child or the best interest of the people associated with that child.

Clearly you distrust them, but what is your real point? You could say the same thing just about any profession.

You make a lot of assumptions. First, my wife is a critical care nurse who worked for more than 20 years at one of the best hospitals in Boston. So hatred would be inaccurate. These 200000 deaths are not, "We are sorry, but the treatment failed and you Mother died" they are " We gave your Mother the wrong dosage of drugs and it killed her" or " Your Father developed and infection post surgery and died"

Secondly, we live in Massachusetts. The government has decided that you will have health insurance whether you want it or not. So, I cover 80% of the best Blue Cross Blue Shield plans that I can offer my employees because I want my employees and their families to have the very best care they can get. We also cover 80% of any deductibles our employees may incur.

Six years ago I had a very severe ear infection that seeded to my jaw bone. The ENT specialist from South Shore Hospital told me I had a tumor. His plan was to surgically remove my ear, remove the tumor and sew my ear back on. Yeah right. I got a second opinion from the head of ENT at Brigham and Womans who told me I had no tumor and if I had surgery that because the area was so infected it could very well have killed me.
My point is that doctors and nurses etc are just like every other profession. There are good and bad and blind faith just because someone is a medical professional is very dangerous. I could spend hours telling stories.

But my larger point is that government intrusion into families is seldom a good idea but add empowered " medical professional" folks to the mix and no matter how good the intentions are, there will be an agenda. It is almost a given that people who have a kid deemed "depressed" or "at risk" will have their property confiscated or kids removed.

 

[Quiet]

In what way was he a typical Democrat? I haven't heard of any Democrats calling for women to be put in concentration camps.

Humor. You missed the winking smiley face

[snip]
No, he wasn't just another pretty boy. He was a typical Democrat.




;-)

 

[TimMcG74]

The beginning and end of the debate over this incident is that the killer posted a video on YouTube clearly outlining his intention to commit mass murder. This at the very least a terrorist threat, and perhaps conspiracy to commit murder. After viewing the video the police paid him a visit and not only failed to arrest him, they didn't seek a warrant to search his home. This guy was clearly disturbed and had expressed violent intentions. This is a failure of law enforcement.

 

[Hoover]

The beginning and end of the debate over this incident is that the killer posted a video on YouTube clearly outlining his intention to commit mass murder. This at the very least a terrorist threat, and perhaps conspiracy to commit murder. After viewing the video the police paid him a visit and not only failed to arrest him, they didn't seek a warrant to search his home. This guy was clearly disturbed and had expressed violent intentions. This is a failure of law enforcement.

The videos with the threats, his plan, etc were posted right before he went out shooting. He had other videos online which were odd, those are the ones posted when the cops visited. If the threat ones were posted, any cop would have arrested him.

They also were not there to arrest him but take him for treatment if needed. In retrospect could things have been different? Yes. But criminals don't broadcast their plans. Watch a biography on jeff dahmer, ted bundy, etc. They hid things from everyone.

 

[rkwjunior]

The dumb ass police spoke with this kid, and he was fine. Now what? Because mom said he's crazy they should take him? This kid is ( was) a professional liar. He was also an adult. It's clear that you don't work in a field where you deal with people like this on a daily basis, and that may be a good thing. You're clearly looking to blame this on the cops, and that's fine. I'd love to take you out and about on my job, and let you interact with some of these types.

Yes, he was a professional liar, thats why the police should have listened to the warning from his mother who knows he's a professional liar and very dangerous, instead the PO-PO decided to play therapist and were tricked. So, i'm saying, with the mothers permission and warning, the police should have just listened to her, this is ultimately the problem. I'm not sure what the mother said on the phone, but if she warned the police of his mental history and problems, they should just do what she said. But my guess is she wasn't very clear as to his mental issues and intentions, so they questioned him like any normal person, but little did they know he was far from normal.

 

[Martlet]

Yes, he was a professional liar, thats why the police should have listened to the warning from his mother who knows he's a professional liar and very dangerous, instead the PO-PO decided to play therapist and were tricked. So, i'm saying, with the mothers permission and warning, the police should have just listened to her, this is ultimately the problem. I'm not sure what the mother said on the phone, but if she warned the police of his mental history and problems, they should just do what she said. But my guess is she wasn't very clear as to his mental issues and intentions, so they questioned him like any normal person, but little did they know he was far from normal.

What do you think the police should have done?

 

[richc]

I give the police a lot of credit in this situation. The easy thing for them to do would be to show up, lock him up and throw away the key. Fortunately they took their authority and power seriously and made a judgment on the facts as they saw them.

On a forum where so many law enforcement types are slammed for using over reaching power, here's a case where they did the job right, made a decision based upon the rules and law, and they are now being slammed for not using enough power and authority. Me thinks LE can't win...

I've learned in my life that predicting outcomes of human behavior is, well, virtually impossible. The police officers in this case looked for the signs and symptoms they've been trained to see and didn't see them. They did everything by the book and now you think they are somehow at fault.

C'mon... you really want police to just lock up everyone in every situation to avoid these black swan events? And what will you say when the black swan events continue to happen even after everyone suspicious is locked up?

We don't live in a perfect world. No one on this forum likes what happened out there. Most of us are looking to blame someone, understanding that it's a part of human nature, and something that will never be stopped.

Yes, he was a professional liar, thats why the police should have listened to the warning from his mother who knows he's a professional liar and very dangerous, instead the PO-PO decided to play therapist and were tricked. So, i'm saying, with the mothers permission and warning, the police should have just listened to her, this is ultimately the problem. I'm not sure what the mother said on the phone, but if she warned the police of his mental history and problems, they should just do what she said. But my guess is she wasn't very clear as to his mental issues and intentions, so they questioned him like any normal person, but little did they know he was far from normal.

 

[terraformer]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=660115527370383

Father of one of the intended victims speaks. BTW: No lady in the targeted sorority was injured solely because they refused to answer the door. That simple act robbed this psycho of a major body count. Not disarming him, basic safety protocols worked here.

 

[Hoover]

Yes, he was a professional liar, that's why the police should have listened to the warning from his mother who knows he's a professional liar and very dangerous, instead the PO-PO decided to play therapist and were tricked. So, i'm saying, with the mothers permission and warning, the police should have just listened to her, this is ultimately the problem. I'm not sure what the mother said on the phone, but if she warned the police of his mental history and problems, they should just do what she said. But my guess is she wasn't very clear as to his mental issues and intentions, so they questioned him like any normal person, but little did they know he was far from normal.

We don't know what she said but the cops spoke to the kid and did not think there was a concern. They also spoke to him a month ago, so he wasn't a threat for a many weeks. If they did take him to a psyh hospital, he would have been out in a few days and this still would have happened.

Hindsight is 20/20. There will never be a point where all crime is preventable, not in an open society. I have a neighbor down the street who is clearly very off. He's in his early to mid 20's and he walks up and down the street playing an air guitar, dancing and singing very loudly. He's not normal, far from it. People say hi but he's anti social. Should he be locked up? I have no idea. There are hundreds of thousands of people with various mental issues similar in respects to the kid in Cali. 99% of them are harmless.

There are bad people in the world and they'll do bad things.

 

[Hoover]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=660115527370383

Father of one of the intended victims speaks. BTW: No lady in the targeted sorority was injured solely because they refused to answer the door. That simple act robbed this psycho of a major body count. Not disarming him, basic safety protocols worked here.

That was huge not opening the door. They would have been fish in a barrel and the body count would have been double or triple or more what happened. Those girls were smart or lucky.

 

[Nick Fury]

Can we at least give a little credit where it's due and acknowledge that the blonde community may be a bit smarter than previously thought?

 

[rkwjunior]

What do you think the police should have done?

Pick him up bring him to the nearest mental facility were he could be evaluated under constant supervision by his doctor and other doctors. If that means evaluating him for 6 months, a year 10 years or the rest of his life, then that's what needs to be done, I dont know, but it's better than just feeding him drugs and hoping he doesn't kill someone. Maybe give him a polygraph, his doctors know he's a professional liar so they know what to look for. There are many aspect to this that most of us may not know about, but surely something can be done with how much they know about him. It's hardly like throwing away the key in a Santa Barbara city jail house, and certainly better than ignoring the danger he is.

 

[Martlet]

Pick him up bring him to the nearest mental facility were he could be evaluated under constant supervision by his doctor and other doctors. If that means evaluating him for 6 months, a year 10 years or the rest of his life, then that's what needs to be done, I dont know, but it's better than just feeding him drugs and hoping he doesn't kill someone. Maybe give him a polygraph, his doctors know he's a professional liar so they know what to look for. There are many aspect to this that most of us may not know about, but surely something can be done with how much they know about him. It's hardly like throwing away the key in a Santa Barbara city jail house, and certainly better than ignoring the danger he is.

So someone should be able to just call the police, say you're crazy, and you get locked up for the rest of your life? I'll take option B, please.

 

[GPP]

Pick him up bring him to the nearest mental facility were he could be evaluated under constant supervision by his doctor and other doctors. If that means evaluating him for 6 months, a year 10 years or the rest of his life, then that's what needs to be done, I dont know, but it's better than just feeding him drugs and hoping he doesn't kill someone. Maybe give him a polygraph, his doctors know he's a professional liar so they know what to look for. There are many aspect to this that most of us may not know about, but surely something can be done with how much they know about him. It's hardly like throwing away the key in a Santa Barbara city jail house, and certainly better than ignoring the danger he is.

You have no idea how truly unrealistic and frightening this response is.

 

[Warrior1A]

Pick him up bring him to the nearest mental facility were he could be evaluated under constant supervision by his doctor and other doctors. If that means evaluating him for 6 months, a year 10 years or the rest of his life, then that's what needs to be done, I dont know, but it's better than just feeding him drugs and hoping he doesn't kill someone. Maybe give him a polygraph, his doctors know he's a professional liar so they know what to look for. There are many aspect to this that most of us may not know about, but surely something can be done with how much they know about him. It's hardly like throwing away the key in a Santa Barbara city jail house, and certainly better than ignoring the danger he is.

But if it's a family member than it's totally okay. Just take their word for it. A family member would never abuse this proposed process...
/sarc

 

[pdm]

So someone should be able to just call the police, say you're crazy, and you get locked up for the rest of your life? I'll take option B, please.

What? That kind of power could be misused? Unpossible.

 

[nin7474]

http://libertycrier.com/nearly-ever...one-thing-common-weapons/#LVbkP0hY0Gf17Pgw.01


The USPS does NOT receive any tax dollars!

 

[pastera]

Pick him up bring him to the nearest mental facility were he could be evaluated under constant supervision by his doctor and other doctors. If that means evaluating him for 6 months, a year 10 years or the rest of his life, then that's what needs to be done, I dont know, but it's better than just feeding him drugs and hoping he doesn't kill someone. Maybe give him a polygraph, his doctors know he's a professional liar so they know what to look for. There are many aspect to this that most of us may not know about, but surely something can be done with how much they know about him. It's hardly like throwing away the key in a Santa Barbara city jail house, and certainly better than ignoring the danger he is.

Do you know how a polygraph works? It looks for the signs of stress that occur when a normal person lies because they know it is wrong. Sociapaths have no stress when they lie because they do not feel the need to conform to societal norms. If you strart locking people up for long term observation, the sociopaths will quickly learn just how to act to get by all of the tests. They do this everyday in order to fit into society.

The only way to be certain a person will not harm anyone is to remove them from society, dead or in jail are the only choices.

 

[rkwjunior]

You have no idea how truly unrealistic and frightening this response is.

I'd like u to elaborate without just coping out and telling me I'm wrong.

 

[lancecolonel]

Yes, he was a professional liar, thats why the police should have listened to the warning from his mother who knows he's a professional liar and very dangerous, instead the PO-PO decided to play therapist and were tricked. So, i'm saying, with the mothers permission and warning, the police should have just listened to her, this is ultimately the problem. I'm not sure what the mother said on the phone, but if she warned the police of his mental history and problems, they should just do what she said. But my guess is she wasn't very clear as to his mental issues and intentions, so they questioned him like any normal person, but little did they know he was far from normal.

dude, when i was in high school and living with her, my mom was a stark raving lunatic pill popper who was a master when it came to manipulating anybody. should the police have listened to her when she called me a crazy selfish bitch for not handing over the $40 a week i earned at a part time job? should the police have hauled me off when i did one of the myriad dumb things teenagers do and she claimed that i was out of control but she still wanted to collect the welfare benefits for having her child living with her? should i have been deemed some kind of threat because we argued all the time about her never buying groceries so i could eat or clothes so i would have more than a couple things to wear? should i have been committed and lose my rights forever (ya, that part is hindsight but growing up in mass i would have been preemptively screwed) because i had the misfortune of being born to a loser who's kids weren't on her list of priorities? and you can bet your ass that to this day she would paint me as the crazy one and her as the woman struggling with addiction who nobody understood if we squared off in a court of law. and she would probably win in a liberal hellhole such as ma. or ca.

in a perfect world, your scenario might work. might.
i just gave you an example of what is more likely to happen if you get your wish. thanks for selling the thousands of kids down the river who grew up just like i did.