7.62 vs 5.56 AR Style rifle

[seanc]

i finances are an issue.. I'd probably go AK with a case of 7.62*39..

But 308 wise. My choices would be in order
M1A
Fal
G3/ HK 91
AR type (no experience here, honestly).

If you are looking at home protection.. Buy a Rem 870 or Moss 500...

 

[M1911]

I am completely out of my league, as I have no personal experience, but what about an AR 15 chambered in 6.8SPC, 7.62x39, 6mmAR or one of the other new chamberings developed for the AR platform?

6.8 SPC and 6mm AR ammunition are grotesquely expensive. For those of us in-country, pre-ban large capacity magazines are unavailable.

As for 7.62x39, in addition to the issue of magazine availability, they usually have reliability issues in the AR platform. 7.62x39 requires a magazine with a pretty tight curvature. The depth of the AR15 mag well requires that the top portion of the magazine be straight, which causes issues for 7.62x39.

 

[seanc]

I've dimpled AR 500 steel at 200 yards with a 16" barrel. Not sure what that means for lethality, but I sure as shit wouldn't want to get hit by 5.56 at that range, and accuracy isn't an issue.

I think this is the .223 "tumbling bullet theory"..

 

[M1911]

I've dimpled AR 500 steel at 200 yards with a 16" barrel. Not sure what that means for lethality, but I sure as shit wouldn't want to get hit by 5.56 at that range, and accuracy isn't an issue.

I never meant to imply that accuracy is an issue with a 16" barrel. It isn't. I'm sure you can easily hit a target at 400 yards with a 14.5" barrel.

The issue is the drop in velocity. From what I've read, much of AR lethality is due to the fact that shortly after the bullet enters the body it yaws and then breaks at the cannelure. That only occurs at relatively high velocity. With a 14.5" barrel you have enough of a loss in velocity that beyond 150 yards you are below that velocity. Not that I'd want to get shot with a 14.5" barrel at 200 yards, mind you...

 

[M1911]

I think this is the .223 "tumbling bullet theory"..

No, it's not. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Jqf2zQvxUimo5ATww&sig2=vUQdtpnXbOJNj1CdyBXdJQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO#Performance

 

[seanc]

No, it's not. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

My Bad... I misread the YAW portion...
Nevermind...

 

[Kenny474]

6.8 SPC and 6mm AR ammunition are grotesquely expensive. For those of us in-country, pre-ban large capacity magazines are unavailable.

As for 7.62x39, in addition to the issue of magazine availability, they usually have reliability issues in the AR platform. 7.62x39 requires a magazine with a pretty tight curvature. The depth of the AR15 mag well requires that the top portion of the magazine be straight, which causes issues for 7.62x39.

That is why I stated what I did in a question format; ie: "what about" ,and also stated that I have no personal experience. I have seen ballistics demos that look very impressive, but have no idea about reliability. I figured someone else would have an answer for that.

And for you Timber, NONE of what I stated is in ANY WAY false or even questionable. It is all fact and has been proven. I stated a suggestion and in no way delivered bad info, so your arrogant ass comment is by far unnecessary. Thanks.

 

[colt_fan]

i finances are an issue.. I'd probably go AK with a case of 7.62*39...

You'll need that case of ammo to make your shot with an AK at longer distances.

Disclaimer: I own several AKs and if I'm shooting past 100 I rarely use the AK.

 

[colt_fan]

Google Fu is strong in this one.

 

[M1911]

That is why I stated what I did in a question format; ie: "what about" ,and also stated that I have no personal experience. I have seen ballistics demos that look very impressive, but have no idea about reliability. I figured someone else would have an answer for that.

I'm sure that the ballistics of the 6.8 SPC, et. al, are far superior to 5.56. But you pay $1/round for that and here in MA are stuck with 10 round magazines. That seems like a bad trade-off to me. YMMV.

As for 7.62x39, while it certainly does have better penetration, it has horrible trajectory. With a 100 yard zero, at 300 yards 5.56 drops 11". In contrast, 7.62x39 drops 24". Only hits count and distance estimation is hard. I'll take the flatter shooting cartridge.

Folks, can we settle down a bit? No need for the personal attacks.

 

[Kenny474]

how is it fact? because you read it on the internet? i've read that .45 will knock a guy down where as 9mm has no stopping power. have you ever shot a living creature with a handgun and witnessed "stopping power" in any caliber? have you ever seen a gunshot wound up close and personal. have you seen what a shotgun does to a man's chest, etc? i have. when you've got some real world experience, then get back to me.

I have probably shot more living creatures than most, considering I have been hunting since I was maybe 10. I can't remember the last time I didn't kill a deer in a season actually. So yes, I have seen knockdown power first hand. When a round has more kinetic energy and frontal area than another, it will usually have more knockdown power. And how is an AR related to a handgun? I have also had friends tell me about Afgani's that have acted like nothing happened after being hit with multiple 5.56 rounds, yet drop when hit with a 7.62 round. I wonder why the US armed forces have been looking into an improved round?

And as far as seeing a person with a gunshot wound, I saw my friends father after he shot himself in the head when I was a teen. I actually found him with a few other kids, so yeah I have seen some shit. Thanks for bringing it up, it's a great memory.

 

[Kenny474]

I'm sure that the ballistics of the 6.8 SPC, et. al, are far superior to 5.56. But you pay $1/round for that and here in MA are stuck with 10 round magazines. That seems like a bad trade-off to me. YMMV.

As for 7.62x39, while it certainly does have better penetration, it has horrible trajectory. With a 100 yard zero, at 300 yards 5.56 drops 11". In contrast, 7.62x39 drops 24". Only hits count and distance estimation is hard. I'll take the flatter shooting cartridge.

Folks, can we settle down a bit? No need for the personal attacks.

I figured it would be OK for upclose work, that's all.

Anyway, Peace out. I have had enough.

 

[Kenny474]

you've knocked a deer down with a rifle?

Not with the rifle itself, but yes I have absolutely leveled a 175lb 6 point buck with a 180gr Nosler BT from a 30-06. Knocked it down never to stand again. I have done the same with my 50cal blackpowder rifle and my 12ga as well. I don't see that it should be shocking in the least.

 

[PatMcD]

in terms of reliability are you firing the rifle stock?

between my AR-10 and M1A, my M1A is more reliable than the AR-10 if it's run dirty. I tend to have FTEs on the AR-10 if I don't clean it after every shoot. but my AR-10 is an Armalite and not a DPMS.

The rifle was stock. Granted, I've fired the M14 a lot more than the LR308, but the only FTF's I've ever had in either was when my M14 spit out the extractor (did it twice: I think it must have been an M1 extractor). The LR308 was way more accurate (and that's comparing it to a my full-blown NM Match M14).

 

[Twigg]

 

[wolf223]

for a first AR, I recommend an entry to mid-level plinker in .223 / 5.56.

 

[wolf223]

Go big or go home.

http://larueobr.com/

....

 

[Gonzo]

Most will exceed the 5.56 in knock down power and will still operate in a standard AR. The 7.62x39 has comparable ballistics with the 30/30, which has been taking down big game for a long time, so it should surely handle a human. There are plenty of options for a compact rifle that still has plenty of power to get the job done. You also have the whole WSSM line that can be chambered in the AR, and they are very powerful rounds. A .243 WSSM would far surpass the 5.56 in downrange energy, and not require a long barrel for good performance and still give excellent accuracy. As all the benchrester's claim "short and fat is where it's at" when it comes to accuracy.

I'm still trying to figure out the whole "knockdown power" thing. I shot a rooster four times with .45 hollow points, at a distance of maybe 10 ft. I shot him center mass each time, thinking I would kill him the first time. He didn't effing move. There was at least 5 seconds between each shot. It goes against everything I've ever heard about bullet effectiveness. But you shoot a 400-lb. pig behind the ear with a .22 short and it drops like a bag of cement.

"Knockdown power" is a myth. It's all about shot placement. The only thing ballistics info is good for is to see how far the bullet will go on the path you intend it to go on.

 

[Admin]

Please take the pissing contest to off-topic.

 

[M1911]

I figured it would be OK for upclose work, that's all.

Sure.

Anyway, Peace out. I have had enough.

? Really, I don't think I've been confrontational.

 

[Gadsden]

Please take the pissing contest to off-topic.

Thanks, this has been good info up until the cockfight.

 

[M1911]

Well, if you want one in 6.8 SPC, there's a YHM rifle for sale in the classifieds here at an incredible price: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...8-SPC-fluted-16-quot-AR15-Rifle-price-reduced

 

[T3andme]

If you reload the 6.8, that will knock down the price a bit Haven't hunted with it yet...maybe someday. Hubby and I each have one (also .223) and enjoy shooting them. He does all the reloading and I usually help acquiring the components. The components are becoming more available....
FWIW....YMMV

Also, got to agree with Wolf223 comment...althought he seems a little partial

 

[T(1)of(3)]

If you reload the 6.8, that will knock down the price a bit Haven't hunted with it yet...maybe someday. Hubby and I each have one (also .223) and enjoy shooting them. He does all the reloading and I usually help acquiring the components. The components are becoming more available.

I am the hubby...acquired the 6.8 in the AR platform a while back. Now we have two, one of which I built up recently. Went with the 6.8 because of the good terminal ballistics and it is essentially the same weight as the .223 AR package which means it is light to carry. The A-10 is a little more of a handful to carry if you are hiking any great distance to hunt. Ammo is expensive and generally runs about a dollar a round new. Since I reload I knock that cost to about a third of that which does make it more affordable. I know there are a few states that put a lower limit on the caliber that they allow for deer hunting. For those that do...the .223 may not qualify even though we all know that deer are effectively harvested with the caliber in other states. The 6.8 made sense to me as an intermediate caliber for hunting medium to larger US animals. I do plan on purchasing a .308 in the AR platform sometime in the future, but the one I want is a little spendy. To the OP, if you are planning to use it for plinking and light hunting the .223 is pretty effective and relatively cheap to shoot, if you are looking to plink and shoot larger animals then you probably want to consider some of the other options. There are pluses and minuses to each one.

To derek's comment "go big or go home" this is the one I would like to get in the .308... http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/P-308-16-MRR-CF-308-CARBINE-C.R.O.S..htm

 

[vellnueve]

To derek's comment "go big or go home" this is the one I would like to get in the .308... http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/P-308-16-MRR-CF-308-CARBINE-C.R.O.S..htm

The LaRue is definitely worth a close look.

 

[wolf223]

http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr25.html

i like the SR25, 20" profile

 

[colt_fan]

or you could go with Armalite's SASS.

It looks like the Larue, KAC and Armalite all share the same lower receiver platform, which is slightly different than the DPMS.

 

[vellnueve]

or you could go with Armalite's SASS.

It looks like the Larue, KAC and Armalite all share the same lower receiver platform, which is slightly different than the DPMS.

Um... you've got that wrong.

LaRue, KAC, and DPMS share the same lower receiver form and mags, which are completely different from the Armalite.

 

[colt_fan]

The DPMS lower receiver above the grip and at the buffer tube is more rounded. Where as the Armalite, Larue and KAC is angled. Also Larue and KAC are using mags based on Stoner's AR-10 design, which are modified M14/M1A mags. These are not the same as DPMS' 308 platform.

DPMS

Armalite

Larue

KAC

 

[vellnueve]

The DPMS lower receiver above the grip and at the buffer tube is more rounded. Where as the Armalite, Larue and KAC is angled. Also Larue and KAC are using mags based on Stoner's AR-10 design, which are modified M14/M1A mags. These are not the same as DPMS' 308 platform.

You may be right about the actual lower/upper matchup, but the DPMS, SR-25, and LaRue use the same mags while the AR-10 has its own separate, non-compatible design which is NOT the original AR-10 design.