.38 Spl vs .380

Xak

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Thinking of trading in my S&W .38 snubbie towards a semi-auto .380. The .38 is the only one I carry IWB, but I find the cylinder is a bit fat for that. I think a .380 would conceal better and more comfortably IWB for summer carry.

Also, my .38 is a DAO with a bit of a heavy trigger and only 5 rounds. I am wondering if the .380 or even .32 ACP might be adequate enough to get the job done, especially considering it will have a lighter DA/SA trigger and be 7+1 or 8+1 respectively.

I seem to be much better with DA/SA type trigger systems no matter how much I practice, and my thinking is only hits count, but is the .380 or .32 ACP effective enough? Having a lighter DA pull would help, but I looked into a trigger job for my .38 and have been told it really can't be lightened much at all.

Anyhow, I'm thinking either Walther PPK or Sig P230 or P232. Leaning heavily toward the Walther, the Sigs look like they have really fat grips.

Thoughts?
 
I'm sorry to hear the .38 Special is not working out for you - out of the three cartridges you mention, it is the most effective at ending a confrontation. Honestly, my personal opinion is you're stepping down into the "not enough gun" territory, but I suppose feeling comfortable with your carry weapon has some importance as well. For me, if need be, .380 would be my cut-off. if you can get to a range that rents, I'd suggest trying a compact in 9mm or .40 S&W before you commit to the .380 and I would not consider a .32ACP - even for free.
 
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I would consider going from .38spl to a 9mm luger, but I wouldn't have the .380ACP (9mm kurtz) be my first choice. There are a few 9mm pistol models that are comparable in size to .380ACP models. I agree with Mark, I would stay away from the .32ACP.
 
I would love the new Walther PPS (9mm), but they aren't available yet, and I don't know if they ever will be in MA. The only other I can think of that is thin like a Walther is maybe a Kahr? But those are rare in MA and I hear they have a heavy DA trigger. I have a Sig P239, but it is too fat for IWB carry (for me anyway).
 
.32 is a backup. .380 isn't much better. I would only make one of those a primary in outfits where anything larger is impossible to carry.

Even 9x19 is not looked upon favorably by many although in the hands of a good shooter will do the job most of the time.

A .38 with +p loads is a significant step up. Have you looked at pocket carry?

Most of the Sigs are large enough that you can carry a .40 before you get to anything 'big'.

If it is really the width that is the issue, look at some of the slimmer single stack autos. An officer size 1911 is a lot slimmer and not much larger overall, and carries a much more potent round.

Perhaps IWB just isn't the best carry mode for you.

So many options without reducing the effectiveness of the round.
 
I would stick with a 38 revolver. I carry a small blue 5 shot Model 37 that's DA/SA in a old leather IWB holster. I bought it back in 86. It's real light and alot easier to carry than my Walther PPK/S 380. Because it's a 5 shot it's a lot thinner than a 6 shot.

I was at the gun club the other day and 2 other old geezers like me were carrying the same gun and rig. We started laughing about it mainly because we also carried them in the same way. All of us had them stuck in our pants, in front of our right hand pocket. You can find Model 37's for under $300.
 
Maybe also consider the 9mm Makarov? About the same size as a .380 firearm, but a little more power and usually $200 or so when you find them.

I've been thinking the same thing, but still keep the .38. You may also consider carrying outside the pants. I use a Fobus paddle holster form my Mod 60 and find it very comfortable.
 
+1 to what the others have said.

I personally find the J frames to be easily concealable. I carry a 442 in a clip-on Don Hume IWB.

The SIG P239 and M&P9C are other favorites of mine.
 
Stick with the .38. Do some experimenting with rounds, if recoil is affecting you. (One of my favorite, now hard to find, is the Remington 95-gr. serrated JHP.) If your revolver is a J-frame, consider some more filling stocks. And have either the factory or a good S&W gunsmith give you a trigger job.
 
Thanx for the ideas guys. Boy, nobody likes the .380, huh? I think I'll look into the compact 1911 style guns for IWB. This is for hot weather, i.e. t-shirt over shorts or jeans with a belt.

The pocket carry idea is out for me, I don't always have baggy style jeans and I'm thin so in normal fitting jeans or pants it would be like "is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?". Double stack is out (even the Walther P99c as thin as it is).

Recoil isn't the issue with my .38, the trigger is heavy and I was told a trigger job would not noticeably lighten it. Also being limited to 5 rounds, then having a heck of a time reloading, especially under stress makes me feel limited if there is more than one threat. Sure if I got the latest, greatest moon clip high tech setup and practiced a whole bunch, but I don't have the time and money to spend so I can only hope to be as efficient as a semi-auto someday. I think a thin, reliable semi-auto in a substantial caliber with a second mag under the belt on the opposite side is the way I want to go.

Perhaps a paddle holster compared to the Don Hume JIT would hold my P239 closer to my side, the hammer prints in tighter shirts.

I was checking out a compact single stack Para Ord. LDA the other day and was amazed by the trigger. Didn't think to compare it's width to the Sig or the cylinder of a j-frame, but I don't recall thinking "wow, is this thin" either. Sure would be comforting to bury 6+1 of .45 ACP under my belt.

I really do want to keep it 9mm minimum, but that PPK I held sure was itching to slide right under my belt and disappear. The first DA trigger pull was a bear, though. I was told they are all like that.

I'll have to play with some more toys at the store and keep your suggestions in mind.

Thanx for all your input. I'll keep ya posted.
 
Look at the M&P 40c. I used to carry a P239 in .40 and now use the 40c. Same basic size (with the Hogue grips on the 239) but 10 rounds in the mag instead of 7. And if IWB is tough, and you can wear a loose untucked T, you can wear these OWB pretty successfully. My 239 rode in a Mitch Rosen 5G for years. Even if it peeks a little, most people don't see it for what it is.

One thing you may need to do is alter the wardrobe a little. I've always liked loose clothing. If your attire is Speedo shorts and a tight 'wife beater', you are going to have a lot harder time.
 
The late, great Skeeter Skelton once did a test for Shooting Times magazine and concluded that a .380 was ballistically more efficient than a .38 Spl fired from a short barrel revolver. That was back in the 70's and ammunition has gotten a lot better. Personally, I'd stick with the .38 and opt for pocket carry rather than IWB. There is also a reliability factor and I think .380's tend not to be quite as reliable as their larger brothers. If you are set on going semi-auto then I'd go for a 9mm maybe a S&W 908 or 3913. They are around, many in new condition.

Mark L.
 
Anyhow, I'm thinking either Walther PPK or Sig P230 or P232. Leaning heavily toward the Walther, the Sigs look like they have really fat grips.

Thoughts?---Xak
Make sure you try the triggers on both the Walther and the Sig.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
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Recoil isn't the issue with my .38, the trigger is heavy and I was told a trigger job would not noticeably lighten it.


Please don't let this post prevent you from getting another gun.

If your .38's trigger seems too heavy, it could simply be fouling. Get a manual so you know where all the parts go first, then try cleaning the heck out of the guts after taking off the sideplate. (Use good screwdrivers so you don't mess them up, and don't worry about the little piece that falls out, your guide will show you how to put it back in). Also, take the cylinder and crane off, and clean the crane and where the cylinder fits in.

My Mod 60 seemed to increase its trigger pull weight, and I did the following and it made the whole thing seem crisper and much lighter. I don't recall ever doing that before, so it was an accumulation of 5 or 6 years for me and however long it was owned and shot before me. Plus I'm cheap so I shoot a lot of cheaper ammo, and I'm sure that gummed up things a little. Costs you nothing but an hour or so of time.

I hope that works for you. And you should still get another gun.
 
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/remington_charts/pr_ballistics.pdf


Quick look at highest Muzzle energy listed in table above:

.380 102gn Brass JHP = 200 ft-lbs
.38 SPL 158gn +P SWC = 278 ft-lbs.
9mm 115 gn +P JHP = 399 ft-lbs.

I know Muzzle energy isn't necessarily a predictor of "stopping power", but it does give you a measurable way to differentiate between the various calibers.

That 9mm round is double the ME of the .380. And it can be had in a not very much bigger (and possibly smaller) gun.
 
I like my .380

I carry my Walther PPK/S .380 on a daily basis and like it a lot. I got to so I could CCW while working in a business casual office environment. Since the gun is small and fairly thin, it conceals easily. When it comes to stopping power it certainly is no .40 or .45 but I think that in an emergency situation it will do just fine. With this said, I have recently bought a .30 snubby and once I learn how to shoot it, it will become my pocket carry gun. I will probably alternate between the two. I also own and have carried the Walther P99C. I really like it but find it somewhat blocky. Still, it is pretty good carry gun in .40 cal.
 
Recoil isn't the issue with my .38, the trigger is heavy and I was told a trigger job would not noticeably lighten it. Also being limited to 5 rounds, then having a heck of a time reloading, especially under stress makes me feel limited if there is more than one threat. Sure if I got the latest, greatest moon clip high tech setup and practiced a whole bunch, but I don't have the time and money to spend so I can only hope to be as efficient as a semi-auto someday. I think a thin, reliable semi-auto in a substantial caliber with a second mag under the belt on the opposite side is the way I want to go.

1) Whoever told you that a trigger job on a Smith will not lighten (and, just as important, smooth up) the trigger pull doesn't know what he is talking about. Both a K-Frame and a J-Frame can be safely and reliably lightened to a crisp 3-4 lbs. by someone who knows what he is doing. Back when, I had trigger jobs done on a lot of my Smiths by the factory, no charge; don't know if elective work is still done for free, but that is a good place to start.

2) If the revolver is a J-Frame, what sometimes seems to be a heavy trigger pull is a result of the dimensions of the frame, which is much shorter between the center of the trigger and the back of the backstrap. This tends to cramp the average hand and can cause problems that are sometimes mis-diagnosed. Hence my recommendation to try a bunch of after-market stocks. On one of mine, I have a pair of original S&W wooden "Snubby Combat" stocks that make the revolver much more like a K-Frame to shoot, and on another I have a pair of Pachmayrs that does much the same thing.

3) I am unconvinced at that a load of five rounds is insufficient for a self-defense carry gun. Remember that the sort of gun fight you may someday face is not ended with the first shot, or the most shots fired, but by the best shot fired. Carry a speedloader so that you can tank up after the action is over, but if five isn't enough then, frankly, you need more practice.

4) I also think that it is far easier to develop genuine skill with the revolver than with the pistol. To which I add: if you really want to develop your revolver skills, acquire another of the same frame size (and stocks, which can be shared) in .22 and learn with the rimfire first.
 
1) Whoever told you that a trigger job on a Smith will not lighten (and, just as important, smooth up) the trigger pull doesn't know what he is talking about. Both a K-Frame and a J-Frame can be safely and reliably lightened to a crisp 3-4 lbs. by someone who knows what he is doing. Back when, I had trigger jobs done on a lot of my Smiths by the factory, no charge; don't know if elective work is still done for free, but that is a good place to start.

2) If the revolver is a J-Frame, what sometimes seems to be a heavy trigger pull is a result of the dimensions of the frame, which is much shorter between the center of the trigger and the back of the backstrap. This tends to cramp the average hand and can cause problems that are sometimes mis-diagnosed. Hence my recommendation to try a bunch of after-market stocks. On one of mine, I have a pair of original S&W wooden "Snubby Combat" stocks that make the revolver much more like a K-Frame to shoot, and on another I have a pair of Pachmayrs that does much the same thing.

3) I am unconvinced at that a load of five rounds is insufficient for a self-defense carry gun. Remember that the sort of gun fight you may someday face is not ended with the first shot, or the most shots fired, but by the best shot fired. Carry a speedloader so that you can tank up after the action is over, but if five isn't enough then, frankly, you need more practice.

4) I also think that it is far easier to develop genuine skill with the revolver than with the pistol. To which I add: if you really want to develop your revolver skills, acquire another of the same frame size (and stocks, which can be shared) in .22 and learn with the rimfire first.

Now that's some great advice. There's not much to add to it, except my own thoughts and experiences, which pale in comparison.

My decision to carry a revolver came mostly by an accident - a twist of fate if you will. I purchased the 642CT as a failed attempt to prod my wife into finally getting her Class-A LTC. After the realization that we were just worlds apart on the "gun issue", I was left with a choice to either sell it, or keep it. Like any red blooded American gun enthusiast - I kept it... [wink]

After nearly 20-years of carrying a 1911 in one form or another and a stint with a Glock22 - my first range experiences with the 642CT were disappointing at best. I could not hit the broad side of a barn with this gun. The trigger pull was a stunner, the CrimsonTrace bounce had me feeling like I was in at a Pink Floyd Laser Show.... [shocked] However, the power and compactness of this gun had me intrigued, so I pressed on, did some reading, asked some questions, did some more research and increased my range time.

What I found, was that the trigger pull could certainly be settled a bit with some gunsmith time, but the easiest option was range time and a lot of dry firing. I drove my wife, daughter, dog and cat, (who both love chasing that laser [wink]) nearly insane with the snap caps and siting in my chair dry firing until the cows came home. The side benefit to this was using my television as a poor mans police simulator. I learned trigger control, follow up and recovery - all in the comfort of my own living room. This translated to a tightening of the groups and a smoothing out of the trigger pull on the range. So in short - a trigger job is an option, but likely unnecessary. Endeavor to dry fire grasshopper and the snubby will set you free....[wink]

Next came mindset. I had to take this 642 for what it is: A snub nosed defensive revolver. I had to clear my mind of popping clay pigeons off a fence-post at 25-yards. I had to erase visions of 3" groups in the X-ring and stop envying the posters who claim, (and likely make) 50 and 100-yard shots with their old Detectives. I had to think about what the ultimate use for this gun would be and that was street defense - up close and personal. I needed to pull my eyeball out of the sight channel and off the front ramp and the only way to do this was point shooting. That really set me free. Once my target grew from a tiny X in the center of a target at 25-feet into a chest cavity at 5-10 and my 642 became an extension of my finger - the world was mine. "Draw, point, shoot, follow-up, retreat" that is my mantra...

One must also look at the most likely of street scenarios. It won't generally be a shootout at the OK Corral from across the street. You won't likely be diving for cover behind a horse trough and popping a guy off the hotel roof. Hell, you likely won;t even need a magazine change. If you do some research and some reading, most street level confrontations happen from zero to five feet not yards. Most confrontations involve anywhere from one to three rounds and last seconds not minutes. I typically do most of my live training from 2-feet to 10-feet and practice with 5 in the cylinder and 5 in a speedloader. In the indiscretions of my youth, I walked around like an ammo plant - I had mags everywhere. Why? That type of preparedness is more suited to home defense in my eyes and for me personally, has no business on the streets except to encumber. With 5 rounds riding and 5 rounds on deck, I feel more than adequately gunned on the streets. The Speer 135gr +P is no joke, (trust me, I have 2,000 of them) and a double dose will ruin your day for certain.

I think in the end, I'm not trying to dissuade you from changing your carry piece, but at the same time, I'm hopefully giving you food for thought. I'm not sure how much range time you've given your snubbie or if perhaps you've given up on it too soon - I almost did. I was never a crack shot, but was proficient for a long time and switching to the revolver humbled me for a while. Range time and research was my friend and now short of a nuclear phaser, I cannot conceive of carrying anything else - especially a drastic step downward to a .32, .380 or even a 9mm.

Good luck with your choices....
 
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The Speer 135gr +P is no joke, (trust me, I have 2,000 of them) and a double dose will ruin your day for certain.

lol, I carry those too, and I have the CT laser grips on my 442. I'll look into a trigger job, perhaps a thinner IWB holster for now, too. My holster now (Shooting Systems) has the cylinder right under my belt, makes my pants look funny.

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But, for really hot weather, or when I don't feel like altering my wardrobe to hide the bulge of the cylinder under by belt I may look for something slim like the Walther PPK or the Sig 230. Perhaps by then the Walther PPS will be available (yeah, right).
 
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