.357 and over penetration as a self defense round

[Coyote33]

Overpen is overrated. Anything that is competent for self-defense can also over penetrate. Going the other direction is more dangerous.

The Box O' Truth Hurts - All Weapons Have Limits Inside the Home -

Previously, I have penned numerous articles focusing on testing various firearms in use throughout a home. Most testing has been completed using drywall, but that is about as realistic as using ballistics gelatin – that testing simply fails to capture the complexity of most structures including...

www.thefirearmblog.com

The Box-o-Truth! Penetration tests

This is pretty cool, just some informal testing of various calibers on sheetrock, wood, and brick (what's that bullet going to do after you shoot the dude in your living room?). He also tests several weapons on bullet-reistant glass, and on padlocks. Enjoy. http://www.theboxotruth.com/

www.martialtalk.com

The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth

This is the Box. Having some time for study of this fascinating sport, I built the "Box O' Truth". The purpose of the Box is to test the penetration of various rounds. People often say, "I think...". "I suppose...", "I bet...", when discussing facts like penetration of ammunition. There is...

www.theboxotruth.com

 

[meh]

That’s why I sold my snubbies — I couldn’t hit beans with them.

...which underscores the irony of snubbies being appealing because of a "simpler manual of arms". Simpler to use but harder to use effectively. @buffalosoutdoors demonstrates how it's done. The single-action mode of a DA/SA revolver is like a very fattening desert: nice to have once in awhile, but nothing good comes from using it regularly. The snubbie DA pull is also a perishable skill. If I haven't practiced in awhile, the first cylinder doesn't go well at the range. That's a huge problem for SD use. "Hang on, I'll deal with you in a moment. I just need to warm up first because I haven't shot this gun at the range for couple months."

 

[kalash]

Massad Ayoob disagrees with you and who are you to disagree with Massad Ayoob?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0QuB2v5rLw

Same fudd lore as twenty years ago, yawn.

 

[MisterHappy]

I don't know the OP. I don't know they level of threat that they live with, or what their level of skill is.

I do know that in the majority of shootings-at-people, be they .mil, cops and robbers, or simple gang shootouts, overpenetration is not the issue. If you empty your gat, and 5/6 miss the intended target, whether the 1/6 that hits overpenetrates is not the main issue.

If Archer is happy with a .32, who are we to argue?

 

[NHCraigT]

Isn't it crazy just a few decades ago cops carried 6 round revolvers as a primary weapon? Now cops have Glocks with 18 in the gun and 3 extra mags on a duty belt and an *assault weapon* in the trunk.

Most LEO now are driving SUV's (so no trunks), and the AR's are in a front seat area vertical gun rack.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

I carried a .357 revolver for many years. Still a huge fan and my 686 will be handed down to my kid plus Mrs. Mountain has a pre-lock 686+. Regardless, I never carry a revolver anymore and sold my LCR in favor of a G43.

Folks, when carrying a snubbie be sure to select one that's very heavy for its size. That way after you miss the bad guy with all your rounds you can throw it at him and it might hurt. (Only semi kidding about this)

I'm available for adoption. Jus' sayin' !

...which underscores the irony of snubbies being appealing because of a "simpler manual of arms". Simpler to use but harder to use effectively. @buffalosoutdoors demonstrates how it's done. The single-action mode of a DA/SA revolver is like a very fattening desert: nice to have once in awhile, but nothing good comes from using it regularly. The snubbie DA pull is also a perishable skill. If I haven't practiced in awhile, the first cylinder doesn't go well at the range. That's a huge problem for SD use. "Hang on, I'll deal with you in a moment. I just need to warm up first because I haven't shot this gun at the range for couple months."

That's with any gun. If you can't put rounds on target with the first cylinder or magazine, you need to practice more. That's where situational awareness and practicing drawing are important as well.

 

[s&w3913]

Revolver use depends on what your doing. If I was an armored car driver or police officer.. I want a semi-auto with at least 15 rounds in a good retention holster with an optic. A K frame snub revolver is much more controllable and a little more concealable then one would think. .38 Plus P is the way to go as I don't have any .357 magnum revolvers. Revolvers aren't obsolete for civilian use. I use Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain + P as the FTX tips make it easier for me to speed load and reload.

If I am around town or the compound here '"out in the country" a revolver is with me. If I go into the city or Wal-Mart or the mall its the S&W or Sig or Beretta Semi-Auto of the day of at least 9 rounds. I used to not care when I lived in Massachusetts as most of the dump cities are easy to avoid when I lived in central MA. I rarely if ever had to go to Worcester. When I worked at the MD office in Framingham... I was done by noon.

However, in Piedmont area of NC.. for whatever reason violence (many more shootings vs stabbings) is much more prevalent.. its not uncommon to see some thug with a extended magazine glock in their sweatpants. So depending on where I am going... I typically go with my Sig P365.. as its my beater gun.. I don't care if it gets taken from me on the slim chance I have to use it.

 

[meh]

That's with any gun. If you can't put rounds on target with the first cylinder or magazine, you need to practice more.

Exactly, but how much you need to practice in order to do that is not the same for every gun. That's what I'm saying is ironic with respect to snubbies. Present company excepted, of course, but a lot of people are attracted to revolvers because of the simpler manual of arms. They are precisely the people who are least likely to practice enough. The DA pull of the snubbie is one of the hardest to master and maintain mastery of, so if you can go x amount of time between range sessions and maintain competence with a semi-auto, chances are you can't go that long and maintain competence with a snubbie. We can go into why that is if you want, but I was just commenting on the irony: it seems like a snubbie requires less of you, but over time, it requires more.

 

[US1000]

...which underscores the irony of snubbies being appealing because of a "simpler manual of arms". Simpler to use but harder to use effectively. @buffalosoutdoors demonstrates how it's done. The single-action mode of a DA/SA revolver is like a very fattening desert: nice to have once in awhile, but nothing good comes from using it regularly. The snubbie DA pull is also a perishable skill. If I haven't practiced in awhile, the first cylinder doesn't go well at the range. That's a huge problem for SD use. "Hang on, I'll deal with you in a moment. I just need to warm up first because I haven't shot this gun at the range for couple months."

You’re not kidding (at least I think I can see this from my limited time with this 327) plus the fact that my EDC is a 365XL with a much different (shorter, lighter) trigger which could be a problem switching off between the two.

 

[US1000]

Thx for the input all. Bought this 327 because it’s awesome and a bit ridiculous at the same time but also wondering if the $1500 is worth it for the use case. I don’t want to own a pistol I couldn’t carry and use as effectively as another. There’s something sort of romantic about a revolver in that old west sense but not positive it’s going to stick around.

Good thing it’s a model that does well on the secondary.

 

[straightshooterjake]

It is true that shooting snubnose revolvers well is a difficult and perishable skill. But not all snubbies are created equal.

The hardest guns to shoot in my opinion are the lightweight J-frames like the 642. They are popular because they are very easy to carry, but they have almost every aspect that makes a handgun hard to shoot. They are very light, they have small grips, they have a heavy trigger, and the sights are hard to see, especially on the gray finished guns.

If you go to a steel K-frame, things are very different. The heavier gun with larger grips greatly improves the perceived recoil and controllability. The triggers on the larger frames tend to be better, and they are also much easier for a gunsmith to improve. And depending on the model, you may get better sights.

The model 327 that is discussed in this thread is a bit in between. It is pretty light, but still heavier that a J-frame, and really easier to handle than a J-frame in every way.

I think with .38+P rounds, the model 327 can be shot pretty well by any experienced shooter who puts some effort into it. I'm not saying that everyone needs to. I think these days revolvers are mostly for people like me who like them. But if you like revolvers, and you like the model 327, then I think it is a viable platform.

 

[M1911]

The hardest guns to shoot in my opinion are the lightweight J-frames like the 642. They are popular because they are very easy to carry, but they have almost every aspect that makes a handgun hard to shoot. They are very light, they have small grips, they have a heavy trigger, and the sights are hard to see, especially on the gray finished guns.

If you go to a steel K-frame, things are very different. The heavier gun with larger grips greatly improves the perceived recoil and controllability. The triggers on the larger frames tend to be better, and they are also much easier for a gunsmith to improve. And depending on the model, you may get better sights.

I had a 642 and a 2 1/2" Model 66 (K-frame). While the 642 was certainly harder to shoot than the 66, I still couldn't shoot the 66 acceptably by my standards, even though I could shoot my 4" K-frames quite well. YMMV.

 

[meh]

but also wondering if the $1500 is worth it for the use case.

You probably don't feel the same way, and I hope you don't, but personally, I prefer not to carry any $1500 gun for the same reason as I don't carry $1500 in cash around in my wallet. I don't know what happens to the defender's gun in a defensive shooting, but my guess is that the cops take possession of it, and then you hope you get it back anytime soon. I feel at ease with lending them one of my two LC9s's, not so great about lending them my TRR8.

 

[Lank]

Personally I wouldn't recommend any caliber that requires the hassle of moon clips. I realize there are many on the forum who are OK with them. Pretty sure I saw 38's at Walmart last time I was there.

Totally agree that 9mm is the better round with much greater availability. Honestly, OP should take a hard look at one of the subcompact 9mm semi's.

Ditto on moon clips

 

[P51MA]

Overpenetration, as it relates to hitting bystanders, is incredibly unlikely, so much so that I would not factor it in to consideration *most* of the time. YMMV.

Pretty much anything that is effective can over penetrate a bad guy anyways.

Overpenetration in the context of terminal ballistics and wasted energy is a different question.

 

[Mountain]

I'm pretty sure this .357 over penetration is a boomer thing. I can remember my dad and friends discussing how cops stopped using. 357 for that reason.

 

[Retired-LEO]

That’s why I sold my snubbies — I couldn’t hit beans with them.

I've never had trouble shooting a 6-8 inch sIzed group, in the middle of a target with, any type of carry pistol "with a little practice".

True I wouldn't consider a snubbie a target grade pistol; But it shoots well for all intended purposes.

Most people say I bodyguard .380 isn't accurate; yet I can shoot it relatively well (despite having a trigger pull over 12lbs).

 

[Mountain]

I've never had trouble shooting a 6-8 inch sIzed group, in the middle of a target with, any type of carry pistol "with a little practice".

True I wouldn't consider a snubbie a target grade pistol; But it shoots well for all intended purposes.

Most people say I bodyguard .380 isn't accurate; yet I can shoot it relatively well (despite having a trigger pull over 12lbs).

Sure but one can mag dump a G19 or 1911 in that same group size within a couple seconds. Not so much with a snub. I'll admit they serve a purpose. For me that purpose is range fun then back of the safe.

 

[Retired-LEO]

Sure but one can mag dump a G19 or 1911 in that same group size within a couple seconds. Not so much with a snub. I'll admit they serve a purpose. For me that purpose is range fun then back of the safe.

The G19 or the 1911 are not really suited for "Pocket Carry"; which is the main use of a snubbie.
If you want to go to go G19 or 1911; I'd put my Walther PDP 5" up against either.

 

[kalash]

The G19 or the 1911 are not really suited for "Pocket Carry"; which is the main use of a snubbie.

P365 enters the chat with more than double the capacity of a .38/.357 snub, faster reloads, better trigger, etc.

 

[M1911]

The G19 or the 1911 are not really suited for "Pocket Carry"; which is the main use of a snubbie.

What I’ve found is that I’m far more accurate with my Kahr PM9 than I was with my 642. It holds two extra rounds, is faster to reload, conceals better, and has less recoil. I still have the PM9; I sold the 642. YMMV.

 

[Retired-LEO]

P365 enters the chat with more than double the capacity of a .38/.357 snub, faster reloads, better trigger, etc.

True, but on a pocket handgun I prefer double strike capability; and the ability to fire multiple rounds through a pocket if necessary.

 

[M1911]

True, but on a pocket handgun I prefer double strike capability; and the ability to fire multiple rounds through a pocket if necessary.

I’ve never agreed with the double strike thing. The chance of a double strike actually igniting a factory round is slim to none. I think the better course of action is to immediately treat it as a misfire (tap rack bang on a semi auto). IMO, double strike capability on a semi auto is a bug not a feature. If you get a misfire on a non-double strike semiauto, you have a dead trigger. The dead trigger is a really good indicator that you need to do something different right now. If you have a semiauto with double strike capability, you might stand there repeatedly pulling the trigger when you need to tap, rack, bang.

As for shooting from a pocket, when I pocket carry it is in my pants pocket, so I have no need for that capability.

But these are just my opinions.

 

[Coyote33]

I'm pretty sure this .357 over penetration is a boomer thing. I can remember my dad and friends discussing how cops stopped using. 357 for that reason.

I'm even more sure the whole reason police resisted going from .357 to 9mm is because 9mm DID NOT PENETRATE ENOUGH. They wanted a gun that could put a bullet through a car door or a car window without second guessing it. I can't say they were wrong really. Though technology has changed, it changed for both, making .357 better as well.

A couple articles:

Why did police forces in America keep revolvers as their sidearms for so long?

Answer (1 of 30): Most of other answers here are correct, at least in part. There was no single reason for the changeover from revolvers to semi-autos. The most often cited reason was that street gangs had the cops outgunned. Street gangs preferred "nines" (9mm semi-autos), and it was just unco...

www.quora.com

State Police Switch Handguns To More Powerful 357 Magnum (Published 1974)

NYS Police Deputy Supt William Surdam discloses on June 22 that state police are switching to more powerful weapon, .357 magnum, gradually phasing out .38-caliber police special; says about 1/2 of state patrol's 2,500 troopers have already been equipped with new weapon and rest will have them...

www.nytimes.com

Legacy: When Cops Carried Revolvers - American Cop

Our history is a part of us, and to ignore our beginnings is to ignore our foundation. Today, cops only feel adequately armed if they have a polymer, high-cap auto on their hip, with 50 rounds of ammo on-hand in magazines. Yet, fewer than 30 years ago, most American law enforcement personnel...

americancop.com

used police revolvers for Sale | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore

Online shopping from a great selection of discounted used police revolvers at Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore.

www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com

 

[rnelson]

Alright. I’ve spoken to a bunch of you and revolvers as of late including .357. Trying to figure out what the best round to carry for defense is. 38, 38+p, or +p+ (and which specific ammo as I know that makes a difference). The hardware is an N frame snubby. From my limited experience 357 outside of the first shot is not something I’m comfortable controlling especially in a bad situation at the moment.

Thoughts? Imagine there are many variations of these rounds with manufacturers that make a difference. I’d be concerned with over penetration but want a round that hits. Maybe I’m over thinking it.

38+p, lower recoil, more control, and still hits pretty hard.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

An Official Journal Of The NRA | .38 Special vs 9mm In Snub Nosed Revolvers

Comparing . 38 Special vs 9mm works only if you shoot them in similar guns. Which we do.

www.shootingillustrated.com

 

[sig shooter]

I don’t think you’ll run into over penetration when using any flavor of todays high tech hollow points. I personally use Hornady Critical Defense. I’m more concerned with controlling recoil and being able to get back on target for a quick follow up shot. 357 mag in a stainless snubby is a bit warm to say the least. 38+p would be my first choice.

 

[sig shooter]

Unless it's a snubnose in your pocket, I can't think of many reasons to carry a revolver in this day and age.

Big bore bear defense/trail gun.

 

[sig shooter]

357 comes in a wide variety of loadings. I was looking at some the other day that only achieved 1150 FPS. That's 9mm territory. I also have some PPU that claim 1600 FPS. Those are pretty spicy. I like 357 and revolvers in general. Find the cartridge that works for you and practice with it.

Aguila makes an 357 mag 158g soft point that will rattle your teeth in an N frame. No way in hell I would shoot that load in a snubbie.

 

[kalash]

Big bore bear defense/trail gun.

In New England???