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.357 and over penetration as a self defense round

US1000

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Alright. I’ve spoken to a bunch of you and revolvers as of late including .357. Trying to figure out what the best round to carry for defense is. 38, 38+p, or +p+ (and which specific ammo as I know that makes a difference). The hardware is an N frame snubby. From my limited experience 357 outside of the first shot is not something I’m comfortable controlling especially in a bad situation at the moment.

Thoughts? Imagine there are many variations of these rounds with manufacturers that make a difference. I’d be concerned with over penetration but want a round that hits. Maybe I’m over thinking it.
 
.38+p is right on the edge of achieving adequate penetration, particularly out of short barreled handguns.
The real concern with .357 is getting a round with a bullet that expands properly without fragmenting.
 
Alright. I’ve spoken to a bunch of you and revolvers as of late including .357. Trying to figure out what the best round to carry for defense is. 38, 38+p, or +p+ (and which specific ammo as I know that makes a difference). The hardware is an N frame snubby. From my limited experience 357 outside of the first shot is not something I’m comfortable controlling especially in a bad situation at the moment.

Thoughts? Imagine there are many variations of these rounds with manufacturers that make a difference. I’d be concerned with over penetration but want a round that hits. Maybe I’m over thinking it.

Overpen is overrated. Anything that is competent for self-defense can also over penetrate. Going the other direction is more dangerous.

Also a 357 Magnum in a 2in snub is going to be on the moderate end of the power continuum believe it or not, despite the amount of noise it makes, you're actually generating less juice than a typical 9mm subcompact handgun is.... AKA the thing that basically everybody else and their brother's uncle is carrying now..... 🤣 357mag doesn't start to sail away from 9mm till you get to 3-4" in barrel on out.....
 
Lucky Gunner has published a lot of good info on this subject. Their results for .38 special from a 2" barrel are especially worth looking at. I would not necessarily choose ammo based solely on their results, but they provide a good base of information to start from.

Their summary for .38 special and .357 is here.


And the full results are here.

 
Lucky Gunner has published a lot of good info on this subject. Their results for .38 special from a 2" barrel are especially worth looking at. I would not necessarily choose ammo based solely on their results, but they provide a good base of information to start from.

Their summary for .38 special and .357 is here.


And the full results are here.

Looks like almost everything out of a 4 inch 357 gets you a 2fer from those charts.
 
[snip]The hardware is an N frame snubby. From my limited experience 357 outside of the first shot is not something I’m comfortable controlling especially in a bad situation at the moment.

Thoughts? Imagine there are many variations of these rounds with manufacturers that make a difference. I’d be concerned with over penetration but want a round that hits. Maybe I’m over thinking it.
1. How well you manage the recoil for follow-up shots is important.
2. Over-penetration is not important. I don't care what reasonable SD round you're shooting. You can never assume it won't make it all the way through and pose some danger to any person beyond.
3. There are short-barrel loads, or at least loads that work better in short barrels. It's the powder choice and the bullet choice. You would never want to use, say, Hornady Critical Duty in a snubby because you probably won't get expansion out of those harder bullets. That will lead to overpenetration, yes, but the bigger issue is that you're missing out on a wider wound channel. You'd be better off with 38+P if it expanded and the 357's didn't.
4. In time you'll hopefully get more and more comfortable with the recoil so that follow-up shots aren't a problem even with .357M loads. If your gun is all steel, that should happen, but the 327PD is quite light. I don't have one, but I have shot full house 180 grain 357M loads out of an SP101, and for that I need to like the grips, and I would not want my life to depend on a follow-up shot. Follow-up shots are fine, though, with more moderate 357M loads, just not the flame throwing full-house loads with heavy bullets.
5. I would carry 38+P, no worries. If you do carry 357M, you'll want to make sure it is a lower-flash type.
 
You are overthinking it. Yes, .357 is very good, but that doesn't mean it's the most practical for every situation and an N frame is a large, heavy firearm to carry. Not saying it can't be, but I don't want to every day.

So, off the bat I'll suggest a 9mm for a revolver simply due to ammo cost and availability. Both .38 and .357 are tough to acquire currenlty and the prices are still way too high for basic practice ammo, defense ammo is running well over a buck a round. With 9mm, I'd have to brush up and see what hollow points are doing good from a snub, I figure HST's would be fine, they always seem to work.

Why 9mm? It's got much more power than .38 +P, but it's not as nasty as .357 is in recoil. Given it's more manageable and the ammo is cheap and everywhere, you are going to practice with it much more than you would the .38 or .357 and that means you're going to become a proficient, accurate shot.

Now, if money isn't a concern there's the Chiappa Rhino, which fires the round from the bottom of the cylinder, not the top like a traditional revolver. That translates to less felt recoil and muzzle flip. If $1000 and 6 rounds of capacity is up your ally, then .357 is an option, but the reality of ammo availability and price is still omnipresent.

The challenge with a revolver 9mm is finding the right one for you because they're not as common. Ruger makes the LCR and SP101, the SP101 is heavier and will soak up more recoil. You obviously want an N frame for more rounds, that's fine, so there's also the Taurus 692 which is a 7 shot and comes with both a .357 Mag and 9mm cylinder. They're hard to come by now and the unported models aren't currently available and I'd never recommend a ported snub barrel for self defense.

S&W does make a 9mm revolver, but at the price they cost you may as well get the Chiappa Rhino.

Overpenetration isn't a major concern if you do your homework, but the reality is all hollow points are mechanical and they can fail under the right conditions. If you want to totally eliminate the possibility for overpenetration then ammo like Lehigh Defense Xtreme whatever the fukk solid copper ouchie bleedy bullet or the Inceptor copper polymer lightweight tumblepalooza don't rely on expansion to cause damage, they rely on magical bullet rotation and flutes that churn soft tissue into jelly to release energy. Also, due to the lightweight projectile the Inceptor ammo has less recoil. Throw that ammo in a Chiappa Rhino and it'll be like shooting a .22

Those are some of my preferred bullets for a short barrel snub revolver, especially those of a heavy, low pressure flavor like .45. They'll work fine in 9mm or .38 or .357 too.
 
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You are overthinking it. Yes, .357 is very good, but that doesn't mean it's the most practical for every situation and an N frame is a large, heavy firearm to carry. Not saying it can't be, but I don't want to every day.

So, off the bat I'll suggest a 9mm for a revolver simply due to ammo cost and availability. Both .38 and .357 are tough to acquire currenlty and the prices are still way too high for basic practice ammo, defense ammo is running well over a buck a round. With 9mm, I'd have to brush up and see what hollow points are doing good from a snub, I figure HST's would be fine, they always seem to work.

Why 9mm? It's got much more power than .38 +P, but it's not as nasty as .357 is in recoil. Given it's more manageable and the ammo is cheap and everywhere, you are going to practice with it much more than you would the .38 or .357 and that means you're going to become a proficient, accurate shot.

Now, if money isn't a concern there's the Chiappa Rhino, which fires the round from the bottom of the cylinder, not the top like a traditional revolver. That translates to less felt recoil and muzzle flip. If $1000 and 6 rounds of capacity is up your ally, then .357 is an option, but the reality of ammo availability and price is still omnipresent.

The challenge with a revolver 9mm is finding the right one for you because they're not as common. Ruger makes the LCR and SP101, the SP101 is heavier and will soak up more recoil. You obviously want an N frame for more rounds, that's fine, so there's also the Taurus 692 which is a 7 shot and comes with both a .357 Mag and 9mm cylinder. They're hard to come by now and the unported models aren't currently available and I'd never recommend a ported snub barrel for self defense.

S&W does make a 9mm revolver, but at the price they cost you may as well get the Chiappa Rhino.

Overpenetration isn't a major concern if you do your homework, but the reality is all hollow points are mechanical and they can fail under the right conditions. If you want to totally eliminate the possibility for overpenetration then ammo like Lehigh Defense Xtreme whatever the fukk solid copper ouchie bleedy bullet or the Inceptor copper polymer lightweight tumblepalooza don't rely on expansion to cause damage, they rely on magical bullet rotation and flutes that churn soft tissue into jelly to release energy. Also, due to the lightweight projectile the Inceptor ammo has less recoil. Throw that ammo in a Chiappa Rhino and it'll be like shooting a .22

Those are some of my preferred bullets for a short barrel snub revolver, especially those of a heavy, low pressure flavor like .45. They'll work fine in 9mm or .38 or .357 too.
Personally I wouldn't recommend any caliber that requires the hassle of moon clips. I realize there are many on the forum who are OK with them. Pretty sure I saw 38's at Walmart last time I was there.

Totally agree that 9mm is the better round with much greater availability. Honestly, OP should take a hard look at one of the subcompact 9mm semi's.
 
Personally I wouldn't recommend any caliber that requires the hassle of moon clips. I realize there are many on the forum who are OK with them. Pretty sure I saw 38's at Walmart last time I was there.

Totally agree that 9mm is the better round with much greater availability. Honestly, OP should take a hard look at one of the subcompact 9mm semi's.
You don't need moon clips to shoot 9mm in a revolver and extracting the cases generally only requires a couple raps on the ejector while the barrel is pointed up. 9mm and moon clips in a revolver is the most over extrapolated things on gun forums.
 
You don't need moon clips to shoot 9mm in a revolver and extracting the cases generally only requires a couple raps on the ejector while the barrel is pointed up. 9mm and moon clips in a revolver is the most over extrapolated things on gun forums.
I'm only going to agree with you because IMHO 99.9999% of the time someone might need a gun for self defense they aren't going to be reloading, and if they did need more rounds a revolver was the wrong choice in the beginning. I've read enough accounts of skipping the moon clips and needing to pick out 9mm cases that it's a hard pass for me.
 
I run Remington Golden Sabre in my snubbie. I carry an extra 10 rounds on those plastic stripper clips designed for the purpose.
For me i just love the way it carries, the way it conceals, the way it shoots. It is a tool i will (hopefully never) use to fight my way back to a proper gunfighting weapon sitting in my truck.
 
I like revolvers better than autos but would recommend an auto for self defense. Spare magazines are flatter and easier to conceal than speed loaders and most people are faster with them. I think 45acp is the best self defense caliber ever invented but a hit with a 9mm is better than a miss with a 45. If it must be a 357 snub, I'd start with 38 hollow points designed for short barrels.
 
When I used to carry a 340PD, I would use .38+P Gold Dot. More than adequate and also controllable.


 
357 comes in a wide variety of loadings. I was looking at some the other day that only achieved 1150 FPS. That's 9mm territory. I also have some PPU that claim 1600 FPS. Those are pretty spicy. I like 357 and revolvers in general. Find the cartridge that works for you and practice with it.
 
You are overthinking it. Yes, .357 is very good, but that doesn't mean it's the most practical for every situation and an N frame is a large, heavy firearm to carry. Not saying it can't be, but I don't want to every day.

So, off the bat I'll suggest a 9mm for a revolver simply due to ammo cost and availability. Both .38 and .357 are tough to acquire currenlty and the prices are still way too high for basic practice ammo, defense ammo is running well over a buck a round. With 9mm, I'd have to brush up and see what hollow points are doing good from a snub, I figure HST's would be fine, they always seem to work.

Why 9mm? It's got much more power than .38 +P, but it's not as nasty as .357 is in recoil. Given it's more manageable and the ammo is cheap and everywhere, you are going to practice with it much more than you would the .38 or .357 and that means you're going to become a proficient, accurate shot.

Now, if money isn't a concern there's the Chiappa Rhino, which fires the round from the bottom of the cylinder, not the top like a traditional revolver. That translates to less felt recoil and muzzle flip. If $1000 and 6 rounds of capacity is up your ally, then .357 is an option, but the reality of ammo availability and price is still omnipresent.

The challenge with a revolver 9mm is finding the right one for you because they're not as common. Ruger makes the LCR and SP101, the SP101 is heavier and will soak up more recoil. You obviously want an N frame for more rounds, that's fine, so there's also the Taurus 692 which is a 7 shot and comes with both a .357 Mag and 9mm cylinder. They're hard to come by now and the unported models aren't currently available and I'd never recommend a ported snub barrel for self defense.

S&W does make a 9mm revolver, but at the price they cost you may as well get the Chiappa Rhino.

Overpenetration isn't a major concern if you do your homework, but the reality is all hollow points are mechanical and they can fail under the right conditions. If you want to totally eliminate the possibility for overpenetration then ammo like Lehigh Defense Xtreme whatever the fukk solid copper ouchie bleedy bullet or the Inceptor copper polymer lightweight tumblepalooza don't rely on expansion to cause damage, they rely on magical bullet rotation and flutes that churn soft tissue into jelly to release energy. Also, due to the lightweight projectile the Inceptor ammo has less recoil. Throw that ammo in a Chiappa Rhino and it'll be like shooting a .22

Those are some of my preferred bullets for a short barrel snub revolver, especially those of a heavy, low pressure flavor like .45. They'll work fine in 9mm or .38 or .357 too.
In a revolver, 9mm is quite snappy. I had an SP-101 the for its weight and caliber, the recoil was surprisingly heavy. And 9mm locally is going up in price, while .38 seems to have stabilized around $22-$25 for practice, and about $25 for 25 rounds of 20.
 
Personally I wouldn't recommend any caliber that requires the hassle of moon clips. I realize there are many on the forum who are OK with them.
I’m one of them. I think moonclips are great. Much easier to reload than speedloaders and I spent a year competing in IDPA with speedloader. YMMV.
 
I'm a big revolver fan.

Just because they're relevant doesn't mean there aren't better options.
I carried a .357 revolver for many years. Still a huge fan and my 686 will be handed down to my kid plus Mrs. Mountain has a pre-lock 686+. Regardless, I never carry a revolver anymore and sold my LCR in favor of a G43.

Folks, when carrying a snubbie be sure to select one that's very heavy for its size. That way after you miss the bad guy with all your rounds you can throw it at him and it might hurt. (Only semi kidding about this)
 
Lucky Gunner has published a lot of good info on this subject. Their results for .38 special from a 2" barrel are especially worth looking at. I would not necessarily choose ammo based solely on their results, but they provide a good base of information to start from.

Their summary for .38 special and .357 is here.


And the full results are here.

I've read a few things from these guys making a case for plain old lead DEWC's for self defense when using a snub. Expansion...nope but great penetratiom while being easy to shoot...again from a snub.
 
Isn't it crazy just a few decades ago cops carried 6 round revolvers as a primary weapon? Now cops have Glocks with 18 in the gun and 3 extra mags on a duty belt and an *assault weapon* in the trunk.
 
Folks, when carrying a snubbie be sure to select one that's very heavy for its size. That way after you miss the bad guy with all your rounds you can throw it at him and it might hurt. (Only semi kidding about this)
That’s why I sold my snubbies — I couldn’t hit beans with them.
 
I have found that I am more accurate with a 38 plus p round then I am with 357. This goes back to my days when I had a model 13 40 years ago. 38 special plus p defensive rounds are going to do their job and it is a lot easier to get back on target for that second shot. Two well placed shots are better than two shots where one of them goes wild. I will say that pachmayer grips made a big difference when shooting 357.
 
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