2021 NH SB141

[strangenh]

The problem has always been that when a dealer calls the gunline one of two things happens. Either they are told “we will call you back,” then at some later time, the dealer is asked for the customer’s information (name, date of birth, etc.) Or NHSP takes the buyer’s information on the initial call and just says “we will call you back.” Lately the call backs seem to be taking days or weeks and sometimes months. That is the problem. The FBI has always processed the checks while the dealer is on the phone. No call backs...

Yes, and that is why the bill happened and why I think the pro-2A folks opposed to it had a hard decision to make - fix local or trust feds to not play games after eliminating the permission to proceed after 3 business days with no response. You say, "lately" like it is thus way now. How "lately" are you talking about? This bill prompted a look at the line and the SP staffed up. It's not federal-line fast still, but supposedly it's "don't leave, it'll be done in a little while" at this point. Certainly that is what I saw going on with handgun buyers at one LGS this past week. Mind, it was a quiet weekday.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Why don't we just stop doing NICS checks and tell the feds to pound sand?

My SWAG is +99% of firearms sold by retailers in New Hampshire are shipped here from out of state.

If the state POC stopped doing NICS checks, feds would revoke our partial point of contact status. If retailers stopped calling in, ATF would revoke their FFL

Without any valid FFLs, no distributor or out-of-state FFL would be willing to break the embargo and ship us guns across state lines.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

My SWAG is +99% of firearms sold by retailers in New Hampshire are shipped here from out of state.

If the state POC stopped doing NICS checks, feds would revoke our partial point of contact status. If retailers stopped calling in, ATF would revoke their FFL

Without any valid FFLs, no distributor or out-of-state FFL would be willing to break the embargo and ship us guns across state lines.

Sigs for everyone!

 

[ReggieB9mm]

Sigs for everyone!

Or Ruger. They have a plant in Newport.

 

[granitestater]

Yes, and that is why the bill happened and why I think the pro-2A folks opposed to it had a hard decision to make - fix local or trust feds to not play games after eliminating the permission to proceed after 3 business days with no response. You say, "lately" like it is thus way now. How "lately" are you talking about? This bill prompted a look at the line and the SP staffed up. It's not federal-line fast still, but supposedly it's "don't leave, it'll be done in a little while" at this point. Certainly that is what I saw going on with handgun buyers at one LGS this past week. Mind, it was a quiet weekday.

Thats exatly the point. Under presure state police started to behave better. That has happend before and then when the heat is off things go back to the way they were. And even if its fixed, the FBI is still doing checks for rifles so they are involved and the FBI owns NICS and NH checks NICS so again the FBI is still involved. And I bought a pistol in mid april , took about 3 hours so better than 3 weeks but not anywhere close to the fast FBI times of 3 - 5 minutes.

And why did it take threat of legislation for the improvements? Why didnt state police just do the right thing? Over 20 years of this non sense and enough is enough. Repeal the gun line.

 

[RadiCS]

This must be the 4d chess that everyone speaks of.

 

[design]

The problem has always been that when a dealer calls the gunline one of two things happens. Either they are told “we will call you back,” then at some later time, the dealer is asked for the customer’s information (name, date of birth, etc.) Or NHSP takes the buyer’s information on the initial call and just says “we will call you back.” Lately the call backs seem to be taking days or weeks and sometimes months. That is the problem. The FBI has always processed the checks while the dealer is on the phone. No call backs...

I'm not sure how recent your data is, but I have spent some time hanging around several gun stores over the last few weeks and there are no call backs except for delays. The dealer stays on the line and provided he/she is not put on hold when he first calls in the response time is sub 15 minutes. Many checks are less then 5 minutes after you connect to an operator.

Much better than it was, thank you to NHFC for putting in effort to get the DOS to correct their bad behavior. It is not "fixed" [meaning equal to or better then the federal line] and still needs improvement, but it is no longer 24+ hours.

There is no reason that the state cannot process 500 checks/day with the current staff (staff the line from 8am-10pm) 14 hours, if the average check is 4 minutes, that is 15/hour/person. (The peak is likely between 2-8pm.) They could easily staff this so that the overlap in shifts is at the peak time.
2 people morning and 2 in the afternoon would (2*7.5*2*15 = 450) with 4 people during the peak hours. There is an efficiency hit that I have not accounted for, but they should be able to do a better job running this then they are. No manufacturer would accept the failure rate nor the man power effectiveness that they have been at. Tell DOS to fix the gun line. As I said in my last post, let the dealers decide and then fund the unit based on the number of checks they perform. The unit has other functions that it needs to do (background checks for employment, security, childcare workers, etc.) and if they knew there funding was drying up, they would get their crap together in a heart beat.


As for "free, if the feds do it" this just means it comes out of your other pocket. The feds still will need to hire 3-5 staff, it is just not obvious to us as the cost is buried in a much larger budget. Seeing as the federal government does not run a balanced budget, it means we are borrowing money to fund this program.

BTW, when was the last time the federal government took over something and it got better? Obamacare, Federal reserve, Veterans health care, etc. Please post your answer.

 

[design]

PS. If all of the time and energy that was spent on this bill (in particular spent fighting with each other) was spent trying to get good bills passed. Good bills like (HB197 stand your ground for vehicles, HB307 True preemption from local gun control, HB334 Constitutional Carry for ATVs and snowmobiles and several others). We would be getting these bills to the governors desk, instead, the infighting is allowing the senate to kill these bills quietly because all of the gun owners have their eyes on a bill that is likely to be vetoed and is going no where.

 

[granitestater]

I'm not sure how recent your data is, but I have spent some time hanging around several gun stores over the last few weeks and there are no call backs except for delays. The dealer stays on the line and provided he/she is not put on hold when he first calls in the response time is sub 15 minutes. Many checks are less then 5 minutes after you connect to an operator.

Much better than it was, thank you to NHFC for putting in effort to get the DOS to correct their bad behavior. It is not "fixed" [meaning equal to or better then the federal line] and still needs improvement, but it is no longer 24+ hours.

There is no reason that the state cannot process 500 checks/day with the current staff (staff the line from 8am-10pm) 14 hours, if the average check is 4 minutes, that is 15/hour/person. (The peak is likely between 2-8pm.) They could easily staff this so that the overlap in shifts is at the peak time.
2 people morning and 2 in the afternoon would (2*7.5*2*15 = 450) with 4 people during the peak hours. There is an efficiency hit that I have not accounted for, but they should be able to do a better job running this then they are. No manufacturer would accept the failure rate nor the man power effectiveness that they have been at. Tell DOS to fix the gun line. As I said in my last post, let the dealers decide and then fund the unit based on the number of checks they perform. The unit has other functions that it needs to do (background checks for employment, security, childcare workers, etc.) and if they knew there funding was drying up, they would get their crap together in a heart beat.


As for "free, if the feds do it" this just means it comes out of your other pocket. The feds still will need to hire 3-5 staff, it is just not obvious to us as the cost is buried in a much larger budget. Seeing as the federal government does not run a balanced budget, it means we are borrowing money to fund this program.

BTW, when was the last time the federal government took over something and it got better? Obamacare, Federal reserve, Veterans health care, etc. Please post your answer.

Maybe and if so, only because of SB 141.

PS. If all of the time and energy that was spent on this bill (in particular spent fighting with each other) was spent trying to get good bills passed. Good bills like (HB197 stand your ground for vehicles, HB307 True preemption from local gun control, HB334 Constitutional Carry for ATVs and snowmobiles and several others). We would be getting these bills to the governors desk, instead, the infighting is allowing the senate to kill these bills quietly because all of the gun owners have their eyes on a bill that is likely to be vetoed and is going no where.

The energy is being expended by you and yours trying to kill good legislation. I have recevied alerts from both NRA and GOA supporting SB 141 and I'm told NSSF also supports it but I have not seen an alert from them so I cant confirm. It is you who are wasting time killing good legislation. It is your arrogance of thinking you know what is best that is the problem. All of these groups cant be wrong and you and yours are right. As I said in an earlier message, I trust GOA more than you and if NRA agrees I know SB 141 is good. Just look at the co-sponsors, John Burt, Bob Giuuda, Nikkiy Kelsey, Jes Edwards.... these are not anti gun people. Maybe you are anti gun

 

[teamRR]

PS. If all of the time and energy that was spent on this bill (in particular spent fighting with each other) was spent trying to get good bills passed. Good bills like (HB197 stand your ground for vehicles, HB307 True preemption from local gun control, HB334 Constitutional Carry for ATVs and snowmobiles and several others). We would be getting these bills to the governors desk, instead, the infighting is allowing the senate to kill these bills quietly because all of the gun owners have their eyes on a bill that is likely to be vetoed and is going no where.

Thank you very much for your insight and I 100% agree.

My wish is everyone would push our politicians into doing something where we might see improvement, hence I keep saying they ought to legislate a fix versus this "gun line bad", "gun line good", "but what about the children?" goes-nowhere business.

And my last gun line check was 8 minutes or so, FFL said it took "awhile". I agree and see they definitely seem to be able to make it work well once they are motivated.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

As for "free, if the feds do it" this just means it comes out of your other pocket. The feds still will need to hire 3-5 staff, it is just not obvious to us as the cost is buried in a much larger budget. Seeing as the federal government does not run a balanced budget, it means we are borrowing money to fund this program.

BTW, when was the last time the federal government took over something and it got better? Obamacare, Federal reserve, Veterans health care, etc. Please post your answer.

Once more for the hard of hearing in the back. The feds are already doing it and providing full service to more than half of the US. About NICS | Federal Bureau of Investigation I've lived in and purchased firearms in several of them. Unlike my NH experiences, I never had a problem.

Your examples are interesting but have no bearing here. When did the state control veteran's health care, when did the state control its own central bank, and when did the state control health insurance. If you do want to throw state run veteran facilities in there, the Tilton, NH and Holyoke, MA facilities don't exactly have a great record over the last year.

With NICS, here we have a case where the feds are already running it and the state decided to interject. The state has f***ed it up. Even worse is after the state f***ed it up, nobody fixed it. The only reason it is halfway running now at the state level is some good NH senators have brought it into the news and the threat of shutting it down.

The premise of tying funding to performance is interesting but not timely. Furthermore, state/fed government drones typically don't care about funding.

I'm starting to wonder why NHFC is digging in their heals so hard to fight this when every other firearms organization and some 2A supporting senators support it. NHFC's opposition seems to fly in the face of good use of funds and support for NH citizen's 2A rights.

You'll notice that there is no evidence of a parallel effort to fix the gun line is running right now. If those running the gun line cared, they would fix it to show they don't need to be shut down. On the fed side you have E-NICS which helps during busy times, backwards NH has fax. Great work NH.

 

[Kevin_NH]

3. Direct access to the NICS database (this is the way the NH gun line does it as I understand it).

Retaining as much control over this as possible at the STATE level is the BEST way to protect the rights of NH citizens as possible

If the gun line could be trusted to return timely responses, I'd agree.

The study I linked and quoted above does suggest that POC states running a NICS query receive the actual records supporting a "Denied" response from NICS, and can override a denial by NICS.

I'd still like to see that ability to override in writing, and an accounting of how often, if ever, our state gun line has allowed a sale to proceed which wouldn't have gone through if it had been a long gun using NICS E-Check.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

You may wish to spend some time re-reading the thread and other sources as most of your assertions are inaccurate

NHFC put a significant effort into reaching out to DoS to improve the performance/eliminate issues with the NH process for handgun checks and worked with a number of shops in NH on this.....NHFC was the catalyst behind the improvements to the NH gun line

When was the last time you saw any other group roll up their sleeves and do anything but bluster about legislation.....dont get me wrong.....we need good legislation and good policy but as a general rule of thumb there's no action and all bluster from most of the other groups especially the NRA and wardrobe disfunction at the top levels

There are 3 ways a NICS check can be run

1. Online (this is how bass pro for example does it)
2. Call in to contractors running the FBI NICS check gun line
3. Direct access to the NICS database (this is the way the NH gun line does it as I understand it).

Retaining as much control over this as possible at the STATE level is the BEST way to protect the rights of NH citizens as possible

See I know how NICS checks are run. The issue is how NH is running them.

What NHFC is doing right now is supporting the status quo that allowed us to get in this mess in the first place.

If Sununu vetoes it, perhaps this will be the catalyst to actually fix it. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[strangenh]

Folks need to be aware that, with federal HR1446 pending out there:

H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021

Summary of H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

...many 2A advocates in NH backed off the SB141 accelerator pedal because it did not seem to be a great time to relinquish state-level control of this part the process. All the feds need to do if both NH SB141 and federal HR1446 pass is just take their sweet time and you have a de facto 20-day waiting period.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I think instead NH should adopt the approach that Iowa, Nebraska and North Carolina use and use CCW license as a "Proceed" for all handgun purchases

I've been saying we should go for "NICS Exempt" for many years, and have been repeatedly shouted down by NESers proclaiming that gaining "Exempt" status will only harm liberty in NH in the long run.

Specifically, I suggested NH go with the Alaska system, where an optional checkbox on the license application results in adding a "NICS-Exempt" endorsement.

Lets put stuff into perspective

The "Study" was funded by the Feds.....specifically the DoJ

Is anyone shocked to read a conclusion that claims that States should relinquish all power/auth on this matter to the Feds?

Did you read the study?

The DOJ's study concludes that state POCs are are less expensive than non-POC checks, however they do not always follow the Fed standards for PP, and suck at processing appeals. In general supports them, determining that "State POCs add value to the overall efficacy of firearm eligibility checks"

 

[granitestater]

Folks need to be aware that, with federal HR1446 pending out there:

H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021

Summary of H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

...many 2A advocates in NH backed off the SB141 accelerator pedal because it did not seem to be a great time to relinquish state-level control of this part the process. All the feds need to do if both NH SB141 and federal HR1446 pass is just take their sweet time and you have a de facto 20-day waiting period.

There is no state control. NICS is a federal system and the NH SP accesses it. If NICS is shut down, or slowed, NH is also shut down or slowed. NH cannot approve a sale without NICS. These fixes are not permanent. They can be rescinded once the heat is off if SB 141 is defeated then we will be back to weeks long waits for a handgun. If it was just last years sales bump I would be all for trying to fix the NH system, but NH has always been slow. Never instant and I doubt these changes are permanent. They had their chance. Time to move on.

In a recent alert, GOA wrote, opposition to SB 141 is support for a waiting period. Sounds about right to me....

We MUST end the gun sales waiting period… | GOA New Hampshire

Yesterday, May 10, five republicans, decided to side with all democrats and voted SB 141 “inexpedient to legislate” — (ITL). What this means is that 15 members of the Criminal Justice and Public Safety Committee voted in FAVOR of imposing a waiting period on handgun buyers. THAT IS NOT...

newhampshire.gunowners.org

 

[granitestater]

The NH gun line looks at the data in the NICS database and makes their own determination whether to proceed or not

This is fundamentally different than submitting the information electronically or via phone to the NICS line and waiting for a proceed/stop

Who would you prefer to be making the decision?

I'd prefer that decision to be made at the state level

I was told that the NICS index is automated. Meaning if a persons name and date of birth are in the NICS index the sale is denied.

As for making the decision, I'll answer your question with a question, if NH is doing such a terrific job of making these decisions based on the data then how come no one has brought up a bill to make them do rifles and shotguns like NJ or Florida or California?

 

[teamRR]

The info on HOW POC states perform checks is out there if people would bother to look

POC states decide how they are going to consume NICS DB info.....

In NH they access the DB and can see a persons history/recorded offenses (if any) in the NICS DB and the NH DoS contact makes a determination vs NICS hotline/internet providing a proceed/halt

This info has been posted by multiple persons in multiple places so its somewhat baffling why people keep regurgitating false/bad info

That is how I understood it worked until someone here kept posting that basically NH uses the Feds to make a determination, then makes their own local checks.

One NH lawyer has been a big supporter of having the gun line based on the ease of identifying the reasons for and resolving false denials, but it has been posted again and again here that NH has no control over resolving denials and they send people to the Fed process. Based on the NH gun line website, and lawyers comments, the idea NH was not involved made no sense to me - sounds like maybe just a lot of bad info gets tossed around.

 

[granitestater]

Just got an alert from GOAs lawyer, Mike Hammond, here is the link to it

Help End the Gun Buyers Waiting Period! | GOA New Hampshire

Last week, Alan sent out an important email about SB 141; which, if enacted into law, will end the handgun sales delays in New Hampshire once and for all. Click here for the web version if you missed it. SB 141 is vitally important legislation. I’m writing today to refute some of the...

newhampshire.gunowners.org

This is some pretty convicing reasons to support SB !41

 

[teamRR]

Just got an alert from GOAs lawyer, Mike Hammond, here is the link to it

Help End the Gun Buyers Waiting Period! | GOA New Hampshire

Last week, Alan sent out an important email about SB 141; which, if enacted into law, will end the handgun sales delays in New Hampshire once and for all. Click here for the web version if you missed it. SB 141 is vitally important legislation. I’m writing today to refute some of the...

newhampshire.gunowners.org

This is some pretty convicing reasons to support SB !41

It doesn't look very convincing to me, actually is more sales pitch than information. It looks very similar to the stuff the NRA sends, basically dumbed down and lacking enough info for anyone to make an informed decision from.

Basically the things people talk about as reasons to keep it - a way to address false denials - not addressed, and the things they didn't say leads me to believe jpk has it right as far as how the gun line operates.

 

[design]

Regarding SB141: There are serious unintended consequences to this legislation:
First here are the reasons to pass this bill:

1. The NH Gun Line (NHGL) has been slow for decades (Was true but performance has been significantly improved)
2. The NHGL has gone on fishing expeditions to explore peoples history without authorization (was true but issue was eliminated)
3. It costs the NH citizens somewhere between $250K and $850k a year to operate (True, but if it goes to Uncle Sam, we pay that same amount plus interest as 40%+ of the federal operating budget is borrowed. They are stealing from your other pocket.

Reasons to keep it:
1. Although the Federal government has [stolen (Not in Article 1, section 8)] the authority to mandate background checks, they currently do not the have the responsibility for handgun approvals. We would cede to them additional ground if we repealed our point of contact. When has giving the Federal government more control of your life been a good thing???

2. The NHGL has direct access to the NICS set of databases (NICS,NCIC,III) . The operators make the final determination on names on NCIC and III and if you are on the NICS index you are automatically denied. Currently the NICS line has a 10% delay status, the NHGL has a 3% delay status.

3. While this is true "If the NICS databases are taken off line, no one will be able to purchase a firearm." the police use the NCIC, III for things other than firearms approvals and those databases will not go off line. As for NICS, the staff could be slowed down at the FBI call center and NH would have faster times.

4. The FBI is a division of the US DOJ: The US DOJ reports to Merrick Garland: He is the most Anti-Gun AG that we have every had.

Here is a letter from Mike Hammond (Gun Owners of America) on the US AG:

Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column

Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.

www.usatoday.com

"Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column
Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.
Michael E. Hammond

The usual gaggle of anti-gun suspects has come out of the woodwork to attack the “gun lobby” for its opposition to any action on behalf of Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland.
Hand guns for sale in Mesa, Ariz.

Coupled with their typical protestations that their attacks on Second Amendment advocates are not attacks on the Second Amendment itself, their words are laden with half-truths and selectively culled “facts.”

But the truth is simple. Second Amendment issues have come before Garland, at least four times. He voted anti-gun every time".... (click on the link for more)

5. With the NHGL, we can get real documentation on why someone was denied. (Without finger prints, without a SSN and without waiting 30 days) A stop by their office gets real time feedback. Some attorneys don't like this as it cuts off a revenue stream...

6. Actual average response time is now sub 5 minutes. If you do not believe this, go to a gun store and watch a few transactions... FWIW, Since I have been involved with a group that was insisting that the Department of Safety clean up their act, the delays have gone from several days to 4 minutes and 15 seconds per transaction (Average transaction time: Month of May for 46 transactions on Fridays and Saturdays). I have the data from one dealer to prove my point and I have been to several others and watched their transaction times.

The proponents of the bill are blinded by their hatred of the DOS, but fail to grasp the harms in having the FBI as the only point of contact. They seem to trust the Federal government to be a better protector of our rights.. History has proven that the Federal Government is NOT a very good advocate for individual liberty.

Bottom-line, is we have zero control at the FBI and just a small amount of control at the state level.
If Merrick Garland short staffs the FBI, we have a backup to allow hand gun purchases, unless you get rid of it. Best solution is to require performance in Statute and require reporting metrics.

The bad news is this bill has cost the pro-liberty community the balance of the good bills this year as the entire gun community is split over what to do. There is no win in a "lesser of two evils" discussion when it is not clear that this is the lesser of evils option.


PS. One of the proponents for this bill owns and has re-registered Moms Demand Action NH a second time in 2019. Claimed that it was to shut them down... AFAIK, they are still operating and there is no public lawsuit attempting to shut them down:

QuickStart

quickstart.sos.nh.gov

 

[ReggieB9mm]

Just got an alert from GOAs lawyer, Mike Hammond, here is the link to it

Help End the Gun Buyers Waiting Period! | GOA New Hampshire

Last week, Alan sent out an important email about SB 141; which, if enacted into law, will end the handgun sales delays in New Hampshire once and for all. Click here for the web version if you missed it. SB 141 is vitally important legislation. I’m writing today to refute some of the...

newhampshire.gunowners.org

This is some pretty convicing reasons to support SB !41

Hard pass

 

[design]

As a GOA life member, they got this one wrong.

In any one cares to read the rules for the FBI and the POC

28 CFR Subpart A - Subpart A—The National Instant Criminal Background Check System

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[granitestater]

Regarding SB141: There are serious unintended consequences to this legislation:
First here are the reasons to pass this bill:

1. The NH Gun Line (NHGL) has been slow for decades (Was true but performance has been significantly improved)
2. The NHGL has gone on fishing expeditions to explore peoples history without authorization (was true but issue was eliminated)
3. It costs the NH citizens somewhere between $250K and $850k a year to operate (True, but if it goes to Uncle Sam, we pay that same amount plus interest as 40%+ of the federal operating budget is borrowed. They are stealing from your other pocket.

Reasons to keep it:
1. Although the Federal government has [stolen (Not in Article 1, section 8)] the authority to mandate background checks, they currently do not the have the responsibility for handgun approvals. We would cede to them additional ground if we repealed our point of contact. When has giving the Federal government more control of your life been a good thing???

2. The NHGL has direct access to the NICS set of databases (NICS,NCIC,III) . The operators make the final determination on names on NCIC and III and if you are on the NICS index you are automatically denied. Currently the NICS line has a 10% delay status, the NHGL has a 3% delay status.

3. While this is true "If the NICS databases are taken off line, no one will be able to purchase a firearm." the police use the NCIC, III for things other than firearms approvals and those databases will not go off line. As for NICS, the staff could be slowed down at the FBI call center and NH would have faster times.

4. The FBI is a division of the US DOJ: The US DOJ reports to Merrick Garland: He is the most Anti-Gun AG that we have every had.

Here is a letter from Mike Hammond (Gun Owners of America) on the US AG:

Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column

Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.

www.usatoday.com

"Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column
Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.
Michael E. Hammond

The usual gaggle of anti-gun suspects has come out of the woodwork to attack the “gun lobby” for its opposition to any action on behalf of Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland.
Hand guns for sale in Mesa, Ariz.

Coupled with their typical protestations that their attacks on Second Amendment advocates are not attacks on the Second Amendment itself, their words are laden with half-truths and selectively culled “facts.”

But the truth is simple. Second Amendment issues have come before Garland, at least four times. He voted anti-gun every time".... (click on the link for more)

5. With the NHGL, we can get real documentation on why someone was denied. (Without finger prints, without a SSN and without waiting 30 days) A stop by their office gets real time feedback. Some attorneys don't like this as it cuts off a revenue stream...

6. Actual average response time is now sub 5 minutes. If you do not believe this, go to a gun store and watch a few transactions... FWIW, Since I have been involved with a group that was insisting that the Department of Safety clean up their act, the delays have gone from several days to 4 minutes and 15 seconds per transaction (Average transaction time: Month of May for 46 transactions on Fridays and Saturdays). I have the data from one dealer to prove my point and I have been to several others and watched their transaction times.

The proponents of the bill are blinded by their hatred of the DOS, but fail to grasp the harms in having the FBI as the only point of contact. They seem to trust the Federal government to be a better protector of our rights.. History has proven that the Federal Government is NOT a very good advocate for individual liberty.

Bottom-line, is we have zero control at the FBI and just a small amount of control at the state level.
If Merrick Garland short staffs the FBI, we have a backup to allow hand gun purchases, unless you get rid of it. Best solution is to require performance in Statute and require reporting metrics.

The bad news is this bill has cost the pro-liberty community the balance of the good bills this year as the entire gun community is split over what to do. There is no win in a "lesser of two evils" discussion when it is not clear that this is the lesser of evils option.


PS. One of the proponents for this bill owns and has re-registered Moms Demand Action NH a second time in 2019. Claimed that it was to shut them down... AFAIK, they are still operating and there is no public lawsuit attempting to shut them down:

QuickStart

quickstart.sos.nh.gov

Just so everyone knows, anti-gun Granite State Progress opposed this bill,

Gun Violence Prevention – Granite State Progress

granitestateprogress.org

GOA just posted another update. Alan Rice quoted a democrat who is pushing to kill the bill:
As Rep. Linda Harriott-Gathright (D), wrote in House Calendar, 26 pages 17-18, “The New Hampshire gun line is an additional check beyond the NICS System…”

There is Still Time to Repeal the Gun Line! | GOA New Hampshire

Mike Hammond and I have both written to you to explain about SB 141 which will repeal the inefficient “gun line.” We have gone into detail about why passing SB 141 is vitally important for Second Amendment rights. The House of Representatives will probably vote on SB 141 on Thursday, June 3...

newhampshire.gunowners.org

SB 141 will end all the problems with the gun line. And design is wrong because the feds are running NICS anyway the cost to service one more state is minimal. gun owners must get a perminment end to delays.

 

[42!]

My responses are in BOLD

Regarding SB141: There are serious unintended consequences to this legislation:
First here are the reasons to pass this bill:

1. The NH Gun Line (NHGL) has been slow for decades (Was true but performance has been significantly improved) They did nothing until threatend with being shut down, when that threat goes away it back to SOP. The officers they reassigned to make it look better have to go back to being real cops, It's all smoke and mirrors.
2. The NHGL has gone on fishing expeditions to explore peoples history without authorization (was true but issue was eliminated) Under threat of being shut down they stopped. Nothing preventing it from coming back.
3. It costs the NH citizens somewhere between $250K and $850k a year to operate (True, but if it goes to Uncle Sam, we pay that same amount plus interest as 40%+ of the federal operating budget is borrowed. They are stealing from your other pocket. What? If we shut down the gun line we stop paying for it. The number of NICS chacks will remain about the same since they will just be coming in through a different path, so change to the Feds costs. The increased number of submissions coming in from FFLs to the Feds will be inconsequential compared to the total, so no increase there either.

Reasons to keep it:
1. Although the Federal government has [stolen (Not in Article 1, section 8)] the authority to mandate background checks, they currently do not the have the responsibility for handgun approvals. We would cede to them additional ground if we repealed our point of contact. When has giving the Federal government more control of your life been a good thing??? Bull, they already control this. If NICS comes back deny, NH Gun Line denies, if NICS comes back Delay, NH Gun Line Delays. Whether or not they have that right isn't relevant because they already have that control and and Gun Line or not they will still have it. Fight this battle, but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

2. The NHGL has direct access to the NICS set of databases (NICS,NCIC,III) . The operators make the final determination on names on NCIC and III and if you are on the NICS index you are automatically denied. Currently the NICS line has a 10% delay status, the NHGL has a 3% delay status. What are saying here? That the Gun Line can make a judgement call if NICS comes back denied and OK it anyway, No. The percentages are irrelevant as given. They are two independent sets, those that submitted to NICS directly (set A), and those that submitted to NICS through the gun line (set B). Since it is NICS that issues the delay in either case, it is likely that if sat A was submitted through the gun line it would still get a delay.

3. While this is true "If the NICS databases are taken off line, no one will be able to purchase a firearm." the police use the NCIC, III for things other than firearms approvals and those databases will not go off line. As for NICS, the staff could be slowed down at the FBI call center and NH would have faster times. You mean just like the Gun Line did until they were threatened with shutdown, I suppose so, but with the national impact you can bet it would get more attention than when NH was doing it on their own.

4. The FBI is a division of the US DOJ: The US DOJ reports to Merrick Garland: He is the most Anti-Gun AG that we have every had. Yup and anything he does to slow down NICS would affect the Gun Line just the same.

Here is a letter from Mike Hammond (Gun Owners of America) on the US AG:

Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column

Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.

www.usatoday.com

"Merrick Garland really is anti-gun: Column
Supreme Court nominee had 4 chances to vote against gun rights, and he took them all.
Michael E. Hammond

The usual gaggle of anti-gun suspects has come out of the woodwork to attack the “gun lobby” for its opposition to any action on behalf of Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland.
Hand guns for sale in Mesa, Ariz.

Coupled with their typical protestations that their attacks on Second Amendment advocates are not attacks on the Second Amendment itself, their words are laden with half-truths and selectively culled “facts.”

But the truth is simple. Second Amendment issues have come before Garland, at least four times. He voted anti-gun every time".... (click on the link for more)

5. With the NHGL, we can get real documentation on why someone was denied. (Without finger prints, without a SSN and without waiting 30 days) A stop by their office gets real time feedback. Some attorneys don't like this as it cuts off a revenue stream... According to the NHGL, in communication between myself and their staff counsel, which I believe I've posted before, If they get a NICS deny you will have to to go through the "federal process" to resolve it. It is only when NICS OKs you and NHGL denies you anyway, that they can do anything. The stats they provided and I posted previously call these "amended denials", and they are most often caused by clerical mistakes on the part of the NHGL itself.

6. Actual average response time is now sub 5 minutes. If you do not believe this, go to a gun store and watch a few transactions... FWIW, Since I have been involved with a group that was insisting that the Department of Safety clean up their act, the delays have gone from several days to 4 minutes and 15 seconds per transaction (Average transaction time: Month of May for 46 transactions on Fridays and Saturdays). I have the data from one dealer to prove my point and I have been to several others and watched their transaction times. Threatened with shutdown, they pulled officers off the streets to cover and do the work they could not, these officers will go back to their regular duties as soon as the threat is gone.

The proponents of the bill are blinded by their hatred of the DOS, but fail to grasp the harms in having the FBI as the only point of contact. They seem to trust the Federal government to be a better protector of our rights.. History has proven that the Federal Government is NOT a very good advocate for individual liberty. I actually like the guys at DOS, I work with them on a regular basis, I was working with them today. My contact there was very helpful, got everything taken care of.

Bottom-line, is we have zero control at the FBI and just a small amount of control at the state level. Go ahead, tell the NHGL to ok someone that NICS denied, see what they tell you.
If Merrick Garland short staffs the FBI, we have a backup to allow hand gun purchases, unless you get rid of it. Best solution is to require performance in Statute and require reporting metrics. If he's really going to pull that he'll do it for the call center and NICS, so it doesn't matter. You should definitely fight this on the Fed level, in the meantime lets take a small win for NH.

The bad news is this bill has cost the pro-liberty community the balance of the good bills this year as the entire gun community is split over what to do. There is no win in a "lesser of two evils" discussion when it is not clear that this is the lesser of evils option. The win is to get rid of this evil then move on to fight the next. Your appoach of do nothing is hardly a better idea. And if you are planning to do something on the Fed level, this doesn't stop you..... I'm waiting.

 

[design]

Prediction Bill dies tomorrow (Table or send back to committee) ITL will not be overturned.

 

[42!]

Killing the gun line by passing HB 141 cedes 100% of control to the feds and biden.

Any other bright ideas? Maybe folks should support HR 1 which will cede control of elections to the feds too.....

By killing HB 141 and retaining control here in NH we have MORE control......just wait until Biden and co start running up NICS delays into weeks or more........

Last chance to email/call your reps to kill HB 141 as its supposed to be voted on in the NH House tomorrow

What control? Data Entry? A NH GL person enters your data into NICS, if it comes back denied then it's denied. Wow we have so much control. Of course if NICS says ok the GL can still deny you, so the GL can add requirements but they can't approve when NICS comes back denied. And if NICS denies you, the GL will tell you you have to go through "the Federal process" for appeal, go ahead and ask them yourself. Ya we have control

 

[RadiCS]

I had interesting discussions yesterday about this bill with Republicans. One of the biggest concerns for not passing this bill is that Democrats have mentioned adding Rifle checks to the gun line. There also have been talks between them that if they get back control, they will remove/defund support for the Gun Line which will give us waiting periods. The Republicans told me that we better hope they win again.

It kind of sounds like they didn't understand the process and now they are fully aware of the Gun Line.

 

[granitestater]

We SHOULD be considering adding all firearms to the gun line because at least at the state level we have mechanisms for recourse

Once it goes to the feds 100% there's no recourse at all.....

Wow, thats wonderful, wait 2 weeks or more to buy a rifle. I doubt that will happen as I'm sure all those who are pushing for SB 141 will fight that hard.

 

[granitestater]

The fact of the matter is that the NH gun line is running quite well.......there have been issue in past but you can thank one of the people you personally attacked for reaching out to get the gun line fixed.

If we cede control to the feds then folks have ZERO recourse

At least while its in NH a person can make a call within state and get answers

Do more
Complain less

its not fixed its running better due to SB 141 and bureuacrats trying to save their jobs. if 141 is defeated things will probbly go back to the way they were. And if democrats win they will surely slow it down. but heres the thing, at the federal level there was 2 years of clinton and 8 of obama with NICS and they never shut it down. sure biden and all are anti gun but they are not lawless. these local dems are lawless. .... the gun line has outlived its usefulness. I bought a handgun in april. Took the dealer over 2 horus of calling to get someone but one she did the check was pretty quick. for rifles its seeems that NICS answers the phone right away.