I think you missed the point of what I was talking about- which has absolutely nothing to deal with the federal government, or the US house or Senate, but rather the state governments of states that already have shall issue carry licenses or similar; an opt in program. Not rocket science. Does not require fags in US house or Senate to even be involved, AT ALL.
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2021 NH SB141
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I think you missed the point of what I was talking about- which has absolutely nothing to deal with the federal government, or the US house or Senate, but rather the state governments of states that already have shall issue carry licenses or similar; an opt in program. Not rocket science. Does not require fags in US house or Senate to even be involved, AT ALL.
State POCs exist as provided for in the CFRs which can be changed without congress. Just like ATF is now attempting to change the definition of a frame or receiver.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/25.2
POC (Point of Contact) means a state or local law enforcement agency serving as an intermediary between an FFL and the federal databases checked by the NICS. A POC will receive NICS background check requests from FFLs, check state or local record systems, perform NICS inquiries, determine whether matching records provide information demonstrating that an individual is disqualified from possessing a firearm under Federal or state law, and respond to FFLs with the results of a NICS background check. A POC will be an agency with express or implied authority to perform POC duties pursuant to state statute, regulation, or executive order.
and:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/25.6
(d) Access to the NICS through POCs. In states where a POC is designated to process background checks for the NICS, FFLs will contact the POC to initiate a NICS background check. Both ATF and the POC will notify FFLs in the POC's state of the means by which FFLs can contact the POC. The NICS will provide POCs with electronic access to the system virtually 24 hours each day through the NCIC communication network. Upon receiving a request for a background check from an FFL, a POC will:
(1) Verify the eligibility of the FFL either by verification of the FFL number or an alternative POC-verification system;
(2) Enter a purpose code indicating that the query of the system is for the purpose of performing a NICS background check in connection with the transfer of a firearm; and (3) Transmit the request for a background check via the NCIC interface to the NICS.
and with emphasis:
(e) Upon receiving a request for a NICS background check, POCs may also conduct a search of available files in state and local law enforcement and other relevant record systems, and may provide a unique State-Assigned Transaction Number (STN) to a valid inquiry for a background check.
Meaning a state can do a more extensive check which is exactly what the NH State police were doing and what Rep. Gathright (an anti gun democrat) wrote about in the house calendar when she advocated killing SB 141:
http://gencourt.state.nh.us/house/caljourns/calendars/2021/HC_26.pdf
SB 141-FN, relative to the procedure for conducting firearm background checks. MAJORITY: INEXPEDIENT TO LEGISLATE. MINORITY: OUGHT TO PASS.
Rep. Linda Harriott-Gathright for the Majority of Criminal Justice and Public Safety. This bill seeks to allow the FBI to conduct all National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) searches concerning the purchase, sale, and transfer of firearms through Federal Firearm Licensed Dealers operating in the State of New Hampshire. This bill effectively repeals the state’s partial point of contact system for handguns, called the “gun line” allowing the authority to remain exclusively with the FBI. It also authorizes county sheriffs to conduct NICS background searches for the purpose of approving or denying the return of firearms to individuals who are subject to a protective order for domestic violence or stalking. We heard testimony from gun line users of past delays to access the system, however the calling system has been updated and appears to be working. More importantly we heard testimony from a lawyer, several dealers, and users of the valuable usage of the gun line. The gun line was able to resolve false issues in the NICS system. Specifically, the gun line gave clear directions, in the form of a letter, on how to resolve the issues, however, when issues occur while using NICS, they are non-specific about how to resolve the issues, resulting in additional costs to the buyer and additional delays. The New Hampshire gun line is an additional check beyond the NICS System, and we prefer to continue the extra measure of security check that the gun line provides. Vote 15-6.
Look at the sponsor list of SB 141 as well as the roll call votes and then try to convince us all here that it is anti gun.
You just can't let his go.... you are living in a world of dreams if you think that the state of NH can approve a sale that NICS denies. NICS is the final arbiter. And again, let me repeat, this is a 20 year old system that has never worked efficiently. If it is as good as you say it is how come no one ever pushed to have NH do the checks on rifle and shotgun sales? I'll answer my own question: The system is flawed and had they tried that there would have been a huge outcry of objectors.
The state POC actually runs queries on the 3 databases, and also on local databases, they don't just get a red/green light from NICS without any data around it.
Read the study I linked to above, where the specifically discuss the situations in which a state POC does approve sales which NICS would have denied -- the most obvious instance being in cases where NICS is missing final determinations.
We can't say for sure what the outcomes have been for our POC because there is very little public data for New Hampshire, but other state POCs absolutely do allow sales which a straight-up FFL-initiated query to NICS E-Check would've denied.
wrong, there are 13 full point of contact states and 4 partial point of contact states. there are 3 states whose state permit exempts hand gun buyers from a NICS check and the dealer calls FBI for rifles or shotguns. See this map:
NICS Participation Map | Federal Bureau of Investigation
and they will most certainly be instructed by a democrat governor (we had 2 over 12 years before sununu) to wait for a reply from NICS. Meaning if Biden shuts down, NH is shut down. And to your point, it was the opposite for decades in NH. FBI was lighting fast and NH gun line was slow.
KBCraig
NES Member
I was going to ask you for any statutory basis for the existence of POCs, but @granitestater beat me to it.
See his answer for the details.
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I thought that NH Gunline was supposed to be improved! I just filled out the 4473 at Runnings in Hinsdale for a revolver and was told that they have to FAX the info to Concord and will have an answer in 24 to 36 hrs. What kind of Bullshit is that. Plus ATF now requires ID with middle name spelled out.
Oh they picked up after a good 15+ minutes on hold.
The NHGL has a ridiculous bottleneck and lord know how they are staffed, but from a purchaser's POV it isn't adequate for a normal day of buying pistols.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
![[devil]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/015.gif "Devil [devil]")
If you stay on hold past the message they will pick up. I ran one in about 5 minutes tonight, good, but not instant.
That is one of the biggest reasons I was pushing for the abolition of the GL. Runnings in Claremont, as well as Black Op Arms, and Bass Pro in Hooksett, continue to use fax for their handgun BG checks. That's why it used to to take 2-3 days (and 2-3 hours, when the pressure was on) to get a "Proceed".
With the Feds, it's phone or online.
strangenh
NES Member
Beats the fed line for a rifle xfer - oh, we got instant response... and they called back an hour later.
That was mid-week, no shows, nothing. Folks, anecdote is great.
The state line has issues - real issues they cure when under the spotlight, then let come back when not. No argument. But when the Dems have a federal bill to turn the OTHER option into a defacto 7-day waiting period, and we can never get the state line back once given up, it makes sense to hold action for a while.
That was mid-week, no shows, nothing. Folks, anecdote is great.
The state line has issues - real issues they cure when under the spotlight, then let come back when not. No argument. But when the Dems have a federal bill to turn the OTHER option into a defacto 7-day waiting period, and we can never get the state line back once given up, it makes sense to hold action for a while.
What part do you people not get? If the Feds create a 7 day waiting period, the NH GL will be subject to the exact same delay!
![[banghead]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/045.gif "Bang Head [banghead]")
strangenh
NES Member
That is literally not how it works. What part do you not get? The database does not issue the delay.What part do you people not get? If the Feds create a 7 day waiting period, the NH GL will be subject to the exact same delay!
xtry51
NES Member
What part do you people not get? If the Feds create a 7 day waiting period, the NH GL will be subject to the exact same delay!
If the feds create a waiting period we start shooting feds. What do you not get?
strangenh
NES Member
Yeah... DE FACTO waiting period. The kind where the FED gun line a) has the automatic proceed removed; and b) has an exec order to delay responses. That's out there. Right now. None of that would affect state-agency searches of the database.
Of course the database does not issue the delay. But if the Feds require a waiting period, then having the NH GL will not allow it any sooner, either. It is not is own way around the Federal system.
I'll be sure to send you a postcard after that. If you're lucky, you'll only end up in Berlin, so you are close to home.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Yes, it is. Of federal law mandates a wait between purchasing and taking home of a gun then we New Hampshire delay prone gun line won’t save you.
Listen, I respect you opinion, more than most on NES. But the idea that the Fed pushes through a waiting period for all Fed checks but they leave the POCs that do it faster alone, does not pass the stink test. POCs are created by an administrative action, basically a letter from the ATF (or maybe the FBI), and can be undone just as easily. The GL does not provide any protection and runs the same check the Feds do. Any perceived control it provides is a delusion. Stop wasting time and money on the GL and focus the fight on the Fed.
Isn't the default proceed on a Fed check in the law? That would mean it can't be changed by EO.
strangenh
NES Member
strangenh
NES Member
What
And while you "focus on that bill" (H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021), which passed the House but was stopped in the Senate, while this whole argument was going on, I will continue to assert that having the state line "out" is better than not having it, while that kind crap continues to be out there.
Sure.
And while you "focus on that bill" (H.R.1446 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2021), which passed the House but was stopped in the Senate, while this whole argument was going on, I will continue to assert that having the state line "out" is better than not having it, while that kind crap continues to be out there.
These bills change nothing as far as the GL goes. The GL doesn't have any default proceed now, and it will never have fewer requirements than the Fed. It's a waste of time and money. Do you really think if the Feds get a 10 day wait for an answer the state is going to do a 3 day default proceed? Come on man.
Blackmore
NES Member
Source please? The May 2020 Form 4473 which is the one currently in use has no such requirement in Section C - Question 26.a. of the instructions:
Question 26.a. Identification: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a the person, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the transferee/buyer. The transferee/buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification document to the transferor/seller that contains the transferee’s/ buyer’s name, residence address, and date of birth. A driver’s license or an identification card issued by a State is acceptable. Social Security cards are not acceptable because no address, date of birth, or photograph is shown on the cards. Identification documents such as a driver’s license or identification card issued with binary, non-binary, or no sex designation may be used as an identification document. A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. See instructions for question 26.b. Supplemental Documentation.
If the transferee/buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his/her permanent duty station is located, but he/she has a driver’s license from another State, the transferor/seller must list the transferee’s military identification card in response to question 26.a., in addition to PCS orders as indicated in 26.c
Or is it just more dealer ignorance or making up their own rules to prevent a sale to someone they're nervous about?
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