2021 NH SB141

It's up..

I think the issue you better hope we don't lose the house and senate or we will have our own waiting period because of the gun line.
 
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Does anybody honestly believe that if the Biden Harris Justice department wanted to deny/delay transactions through their control over the three national databases used for background checks, our state gun line would do anything but dance to their tune?
Thats the thing, you dont understand how the NH Gun Line works at state police and your ignorance and that of reps and senators is going to lead to NH citizens having no recourse when the biden delays begin

The NH State Police access the NICS database directly and see a persons record and THE NH SP make a determination based on a persons convictions in the DB

This has been pointed out several times but several of the perpetually ignorant continue to assert that the NH SP are just calling NICS for a proceed/hold
To be fair, it is unpublicized and poorly documented, with little to no public information on how (Partial) Point of Contact states' processes work.

And error rates like this do not help:

 
The fact of the matter is that the NH gun line is running quite well.......there have been issue in past but you can thank one of the people you personally attacked for reaching out to get the gun line fixed.

If we cede control to the feds then folks have ZERO recourse

At least while its in NH a person can make a call within state and get answers

Do more
Complain less
I got my information directly from that department and their staff counsel, you got yours second and third hand, you'll have to excuse me while I give more credit to those actually doing the work and the lawyer that works in that group.

How can you honestly put forward the idea that if a NICS check returns a reason for denial that some flunky at the GL is going to say "let me think about this.... na I'm going to approve them anyway" get real. On the other hand, they admitted to checking beyond what was required, looking for a reason to deny and only stopped that recently. And nothing is stopping them from going back to this.
 
Does anybody honestly believe that if the Biden Harris Justice department wanted to deny/delay transactions through their control over the three national databases used for background checks, our state gun line would do anything but dance to their tune?

To be fair, it is unpublicized and poorly documented, with little to no public information on how (Partial) Point of Contact states' processes work.

And error rates like this do not help:

And on top of those errors the NHGL has it's own category in it's own stats for when they mess up (NICS approved but denied by NHGL anyway), "amended denial" [laugh]
 
You're ignorance of the facts is noteworthy

Issues with the gun line were mitigated many months ago after a certain person you attacked made a huge effort to get shit fixed Under the threat of losing their jobs. When the threat passes it will be back to SOP

Biden just nominated Garland to head up DoJ and Chipman on deck to head up the ATF we've never had people running the apparatus that were more hostile to RKBA Could have done this in the past too, but didn't or couldn't. Fight this on the Fed level, don't make it easier by having another gov group that can ONLY make it worse.

Ceding total control to the federal government where we have zero control and no recource is simply retarded You're delusional. They already have this by controlling NICS and the appeal process, and they control/define what a POC is so they control that as well.

At least at the state level we can reform/correct/improve it AND people that encounter an issue have a local in state resource they can reach out to when there's an issue All the state controls, can improve, is the data entry. Everything else is already federal. So ya, if the people at the NHGL screw up we can tell them to stop screwing up. Or we can eliminate them and thus eliminate the source of the screw up.

The simple fact that we were able to improve/eliminate issues with the gun line in short order earlier this year is a simple demonstration of WHY it should remain in NH and not go to the biden administration It also shows that they KNEW what BS was going on and choose to ignore it until their department was threatened with being eliminated.
 
Cant wait to see/hear the hand wringing/excuses from folks once the biden administration starts delaying people en masse
I have zero doubts that they'll come up with a way to accomplish this, one which also delays buyers in POC/P-POC states. Chipman likely already has a plan to rein in all the "NICS Exempt" LTC states like Alaska.

I got my information directly from that department and their staff counsel, you got yours second and third hand, you'll have to excuse me while I give more credit to those actually doing the work and the lawyer that works in that group.

How can you honestly put forward the idea that if a NICS check returns a reason for denial that some flunky at the GL is going to say "let me think about this.... na I'm going to approve them anyway" get real. On the other hand, they admitted to checking beyond what was required, looking for a reason to deny and only stopped that recently. And nothing is stopping them from going back to this.
As seen in the study I linked upthread, this does happen!

The study used Georgia and Oregon for a deeper dive, and found that Georgia and Oregon proceed 29.4% and 22.5%, respectively, of the transactions that NICS would deny.
 
Here's the problem with the above

You're factually incorrect

The NH State Police directly access the records in the NICS DB and make their own determination in exactly the same manner that other states do who have not delegated this to the NICS hotline
You keep saying that. But I've told you where I got my information, directly for the NHGL, and applied a little common sense, no one at the NHGL is going to approve someone that NICS comes back as denied. And you haven't given any source. Just you saying. And it fails the most basic common sense test so whatever, go a head and keep saying it, it's pure delusion.
 
And I keep telling you you're factually incorrect.....you either misunderstood what you were told OR were fed a line of bullshit

Doesnt matter to me which.....bottom line is that you;re assertions are factually incorrect and not reflective of the actual processed followed at NH SP gun line

Ceding all control to the feds/biden administration is a strategic failure that provides individuals and politicians with ZERO recourse when there are problems
Still refusing to provide a source. "you're wrong because I say so", whatever you say. [rofl]
 
The source is someone that has had direct access and witnessed it but none of that really matters because eliminating the NH gun line and ceding that function to the biden administration is a strategic/tactical/upper brain function failure no matter how you slice it

Its right up there will supporting HR1 which federalizes elections......

Then the gun line should have been more efficient through its over 20 years of life. It is done, SB 141 passed the house today, 197-180.
 
The source is someone that has had direct access and witnessed it but none of that really matters because eliminating the NH gun line and ceding that function to the biden administration is a strategic/tactical/upper brain function failure no matter how you slice it

Its right up there will supporting HR1 which federalizes elections......
still refusing to identify your source

and the Fed already has control, both by controlling the NICS DB and that they determine what and how a POC does what it does. So total BS
 
FWIW the stats on the NH Gun Line for last month were average processing time was under 4 mins so lets not pretend that there was an unsolveable problem......and the ammoland BS someone posted was circa 2016 iirc.
not worth a dam thing since the changes came AFTER they were threatened with closure.
 
Feds dont have control when state performs the checks......let me remind you that the state is the entity that provides records to NICS......and NH could in future refuse to provide records

Again, you're failing to think/act strategically.........its the RKBA equivalent of supporting HR1 and nationalizing elections where we have ZERO recourse/control

Keep biting your nose to spite your face.....
If the Fed shuts down a POC's access to NICS, the POC is shut down. That's control.
If the POC refuses to provide records, the Fed shuts them down and stops NICS checks, and now none gets approved. That's control.
So the Fed has control and unless the Fed laws are changed they will continue to have control. Our POC is nothing to them.

None of this changes with the end of the NHGL.

It's you that has this delusional belief that the NH POC somehow controls the Fed [rofl] and we can force them to our will. Go ahead, take you ball and go home. The Fed doesn't care.

If you want to change Fed law, sure lets do that, but stop pretending that employing a handful of do-nothings will make any difference.

Still waiting for that source............
 
and the Fed already has control, both by controlling the NICS DB and that they determine what and how a POC does what it does. So total BS
Feds dont have control when state performs the checks......let me remind you that the state is the entity that provides records to NICS......and NH could in future refuse to provide records
Again, you're failing to think/act strategically.........its the RKBA equivalent of supporting HR1 and nationalizing elections where we have ZERO recourse/control
Keep biting your nose to spite your face.....
Feds control all three databases which both they and the state POC check; some state POCs also run state-level checks, which sometimes contain more detailed information which can result in the state POC denying (or approving!) a request contrary to what NICS indicates.

It is actually common for a state POC to approve a sale which NICS would deny -- during the time period of the study I linked to several pages ago, Georgia and Oregon gave a green light to 29.4% and 22.5%, respectively, of the transactions which NICS would deny. For example, NICS denies and Oregon proceeds in cases of an arrest for a domestic violence misdemeanor which resulted in a conviction for a lesser offense.


If the Fed shuts down a POC's access to NICS, the POC is shut down. That's control.
If the POC refuses to provide records, the Fed shuts them down and stops NICS checks, and now none gets approved. That's control.
So the Fed has control and unless the Fed laws are changed they will continue to have control. Our POC is nothing to them.
Which is why we need to be wary of the "Charleston Loophole" bill, efforts to repeal the "Default Proceed" facet of the Brady act.
 
The risk people are talking about, again, is not the feds shutting off the line. They won't do that for a ton of reasons. But rather 1) an act of Congress changing or removing (in federal law) the time limit for the review vs. automatic proceed, and (with that or on its own) 2) the federal personnel doing the checks being intentionally understaffed or told to hold review results for a long time. Literally zero local control over that and not criminal for them to do so. This isn't about the feds literally breaking the entire national criminal background check system on purpose.
 
The feds control the info they have.......which doesnt mean that a state cant choose to stop reporting records at some point in the future

The cognitive failure of 42 and similarlly cognitively challenged folks that support HB 141 is that they fail to comprehend that when the STATE performs the check they look at the records themselves and make a determination themselves as you note.

There's quite literally NOTHING good that will come from NH ceding this function to the Biden administration

Its tragic that so few people are capable of strategic planning/action........something the dems are very very good at.......its just another example of the so called RKBA community shooting themselves in the head

I guess the question I have is if the NH gun line is so good how come no one has ever tried to get them to handle checks for rifles and shotguns?
 
Again....because people are not thinking stategically......

Instead y'all run around insulting the one person thats done more to secure and protect your rights than any person who's served in the NH House in decades.

Getting rid of the gun line and ceding that to the feds is right up there with nationalizing electiion law/process/requirements.....its a guaranteed failure.
I guess I’m just one of those many deplorables again
 
Again....because people are not thinking stategically......

Instead y'all run around insulting the one person thats done more to secure and protect your rights than any person who's served in the NH House in decades.

Getting rid of the gun line and ceding that to the feds is right up there with nationalizing electiion law/process/requirements.....its a guaranteed failure.
I have never insulted Rep. John Burt or Rep. Norman Silber. Hoell on the other hand seems more obsessed with Covid closures, churches and abortions etc.
 
I guess the question I have is if the NH gun line is so good how come no one has ever tried to get them to handle checks for rifles and shotguns?
Because the Brady law put a 5-day waiting period on handgun purchases unless the state had its own M.O. of running background checks for it.

This all goes back to that.
 
People have made this stupidly personal and insulting for no good reason. Both here on NES, and at the "NH Gun Orgs" level.

I had a long phone call with @design about SB141. I respect him and consider him among my friends and allies. We're on the same team.

I told him that I supported passage, and I did vote for it. I didn't want us to lose, so I considered voting for tabling, but after talking with John Burt and other pro-gun allies in the House on Thursday and counting our votes, I voted against tabling, and for passage.

We won. By "We", I mean NH gun purchasers and NH gun dealers.

NH doesn't require any background checks, and shouldn't be in the business of conducting them. Nothing NH does would prevent a shutdown if the feds decided to shut off access. The NHGL can't approve anything that isn't approved by NICS. Period. If NICS goes away, so does NHGL.

In my previous career, I had NCIC/NLETS/III access to conduct criminal background checks. It's a nightmare. Records from NY were extremely thorough, but Mass records are a total goat screw. Every MA hit for a name match required contacting the PD of origin, then the court of jurisdiction; even then, most of them didn't have any clue, and resolution could take months.

Some have said the NHGL operators look at the "actual records", but that's not true. They look at a computer screen, just like NICS operators. They might have more access to NH-originated entries in the database, but NH gun buyers haven't usually spent their entire lives in NH. Even if they have, mismatched IDs are the most common reason for delays and/or denials.

"But Biden's anti-gun administration could just shut things down!"

True. So could Dan Feltes' administration. And if you don't understand that the "drastic improvements" at NHGL over the last few months could be reversed as quickly as they happened, you don't understand how agencies respond to pressure.

I'm happy that we passed SB141. I'm still friends with @design. I look forward to more gun freedom, although NH doesn't have much room for improvement.
 
Every time I bring this up someone gets bent but in NH there are definitely instances of people who pass a NH POC check and are denied by the feds.

This seems completely bizarre to me, it's likely a corner case, although I can see a case where dumbo LEEP computer somehow produces a fast, hard DENIAL

A fun question- for those who might know- are the NHGL people allowed to override a NICS decision based on collecting evidence they have to the contrary of the FBI NICS
determination? I know they can do it for identity issues (because that can be fixed, or resolved, or the examiner can figure out the "real person" etc )

The FFL I go to also said some people get Delay via the feds and no issues via NH POC - he had asked how I wanted my "pistol" lower run through as it could go either way.

Lol that's fun, considering that they're supposed to use the GL for a lower. The gun line literally asks you that, its one of the first questions. "Handgun or Other ?" Of course the law
could be vague enough that they could use the feds for "Other" but im not aware of most NH shops using LEEP for that.

The delay thing I buy- if only because of mistaken identity issues. The GL can escalate immediately to that level, whereas the feds the dumbo level 1 examiners seemingly cant or arent
allowed to figure that shit out.

My suspicion is its people with petty crime or annulled convictions from NH where the state POC gets it immediately and the feds can get hung up. NH is a little special in that area, people can get in a whole lot of trouble, serve lots of time, yet eventually be cleared administratively (as it should be).

Maybe.

Part of the problem with these f***ing background check systems is its a goddam black box.

So when we have gun people bringing bills it looks like a f***ing clown show because nobody is able to tell anyone else exactly how it works.

Like for example in this case, NH Reps should have been able to attend a dog and pony show with NHGL personnel to see how the system actually works in contrast to the
federal one. So that, you know, someone could make an informed decision.
 
This seems completely bizarre to me, it's likely a corner case, although I can see a case where dumbo LEEP computer somehow produces a fast, hard DENIAL

A fun question- for those who might know- are the NHGL people allowed to override a NICS decision based on collecting evidence they have to the contrary of the FBI NICS
determination? I know they can do it for identity issues (because that can be fixed, or resolved, or the examiner can figure out the "real person" etc )



Lol that's fun, considering that they're supposed to use the GL for a lower. The gun line literally asks you that, its one of the first questions. "Handgun or Other ?" Of course the law
could be vague enough that they could use the feds for "Other" but im not aware of most NH shops using LEEP for that.

The delay thing I buy- if only because of mistaken identity issues. The GL can escalate immediately to that level, whereas the feds the dumbo level 1 examiners seemingly cant or arent
allowed to figure that shit out.



Maybe.

Part of the problem with these f***ing background check systems is its a goddam black box.

So when we have gun people bringing bills it looks like a f***ing clown show because nobody is able to tell anyone else exactly how it works.

Like for example in this case, NH Reps should have been able to attend a dog and pony show with NHGL personnel to see how the system actually works in contrast to the
federal one. So that, you know, someone could make an informed decision.

I can't break these up easily on a phone but will attempt to respond...

My belief, what I have been told by folks that should know, and I STRONGLY AGREE this would be a great time for NHGL to get some publically available Q&A on exact processes followed: the NHGL does not "use" NICS via a federal agent or automated response to make a determination, rather they use the records and are the actual agents involved.

A gun line check resulting in a proceed that the feds might deny isn't overriding what the feds did rather its a different interpretation of the same information.

My belief is NH employees are going to be particularly good at correctly assessing NH residents with records in there because they understand local laws, hence those (odd, rare, sure) situations where people proceed or get a delay or deny one way and not the other. And lots of people have some records in there - my understanding are annulled records even still show up like a prohibiting item and every time a human must verify each has a corresponding annulment for instance.

As far as the lower, specifically I was told it's a grey area provided the lower isn't one that comes called a "pistol' model, like say an Aero complete lower built with a pistol buffer tube - then they must file the form for multiple pistol purchases if applicable, however nobody cares where the check is done otherwise. I have definitely bought them via both checks at different FFLs but know only one who actually asks where you want it run.
 
This seems completely bizarre to me, it's likely a corner case, although I can see a case where dumbo LEEP computer somehow produces a fast, hard DENIAL

A fun question- for those who might know- are the NHGL people allowed to override a NICS decision based on collecting evidence they have to the contrary of the FBI NICS determination? I know they can do it for identity issues (because that can be fixed, or resolved, or the examiner can figure out the "real person" etc )
Not sure about our gun line specifically, but in the study I linked to, about a quarter of cases where Fed would've denied, the Georgia or Oregon POC gave a proceed -- most common reason were cases of an arrest for a domestic violence misdemeanor which resulted in a conviction for a lesser offense, just because of how the arrest+conviction is coded in NICS versus in the state database.
 
Not sure about our gun line specifically, but in the study I linked to, about a quarter of cases where Fed would've denied, the Georgia or Oregon POC gave a proceed -- most common reason were cases of an arrest for a domestic violence misdemeanor which resulted in a conviction for a lesser offense, just because of how the arrest+conviction is coded in NICS versus in the state database.
A little topic drift.
This sounds like a clerical thing that the states could fix. They send the data to NICS, they just need to code it correctly. The question I would ask is, with such a simple fix why don't the states fix this? Of course fixing this would give one less data point in favor of the POCs. Most gov agencies work to protect their own existence, not to eliminate themselves just because it's better for the people. There is no motivation in gov to improve operations or correct wasteful practices.
 
The entire NICS scheme is wholly unconstitutional but given that its current law, retaining as much of this imperfect process here in NH allows us and people wrongly denied, the most control over it.

Passing 141 was a strategic mistake and is just bad policy

Agree - to me it appears mostly short sighted from folks who got a long wait once via NH and see no possibility coming from the feds other than an instant proceed. "NH bad, feds good"..

I really just don't understand why it would be desirable to trade a straightforward local method with simple failsafes we can influence, for some remote faceless/nameless federal process that we have absolutely no recourse to fix when it breaks. All over occasionally, rarely, having to take a 2nd trip to the FFL during some unusual times, shit which the feds can pull as well and especially when we have such a bad administration up there.
 
This......the passage of 141 was about politics instead of good policy and strategic/tactical planning.

Should be interesting to see what the Governor does

I think it's probably a great opportunity for him to show his centrist side, really it will only win him votes. Even folks foaming at the mouth over the existence of the GL understand its not the existence of a permit or magazine ban we are talking about here, and those folks are few and far between.
 
If he signs it then it eliminates NHSP/DoS jobs....veto would be a wag to supporting NHSP/DoS

After their support for Feltes in the last election, I don’t think he will be too concerned about them.
 
Patch article today with agreeable points from both sides. It is too long to post here, over 10K characters. Easy to see both sides of the argument at the link.

State System For Background Checks Divides NH Gun Advocates

State System For Background Checks Divides NH Gun Advocates​

SB 141 is heading to Gov. Chris Sununu's desk. It will scrap the state's Gun Line check system and replace it with the federal NICS.​

 
They completely/totally missed the salient point that the entire argument revolves around
That the NH SP interact directly with the FBI database and see the records/make a determination.....instead of the FBI giving them a proceed/halt

If NH was going to be strategic about this then it would roll long gun sales into the existing gun line and add/force improvements to the NH process.......that way they retain control when we all see on the horizon the current administration effing with NICS check staffing/responses
Messing with staffing/responsiveness isn't the only way to cause headaches for buyers; Plenty of ways the Harris-Biden administration can FUBAR the mandatory NICS checks (e.g. "No Fly = No Buy") which would also hit POC/PPOC states.

They're malicious but not stupid; why go to the effort of "effing with NICS" and chose an approach which only works in the 36 non-POC states, or even one which only achieves their desired results in the 26 states which don't issue Brady-Exempt purchase and/or carry licenses?
 
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