Win 231/HP 38 being phased out/ discontinued

[leewongfei]

I have read this on multiple forums over the last week and Dillon Precision just confirmed this on Brian Enos' site as well. Today is a sad day indeed .

"Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased.
Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can.

Mike Daly
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder"

 

[knfmn]

Seriously? Crap. That's one of my favorite powders. I use it extensively in .38 and 9mm. That really stinks. I might mosey up north this weekend and see if Shooters has any left in stock.

 

[EddieCoyle]

All I really want is a reliable supply of something.

I'll gladly put in the time/money to make it work if I could be assured of getting it when I need it. It sucks when you work up a load for a set of components and then can't get them.

 

[DW357]

I see an even bigger surge in people buying 231 now lol. Get it while you can!

 

[knfmn]

All I really want is a reliable supply of something.

I'll gladly put in the time/money to make it work if I could be assured of getting it when I need it. It sucks when you work up a load for a set of components and then can't get them.

I'm there with you, Eddie. I've got a couple of 38 and 9mm pet loads with 231 that I shoot more than anything else. Shucks.

 

[eisenhow]

That's too bad. W231/HP38 have been my go to powder for lead/moly/poly bullets as well as revolver loads (titegroup too hot). I guess I'll have to give WST another try or pony up for n320.

 

[DW357]

That's too bad. W231/HP38 have been my go to powder for lead/moly/poly bullets as well as revolver loads (titegroup too hot). I guess I'll have to give WST another try or pony up for n320.

231 is a great powder but I've had great results with other fast burning powders like TG, Bullseye, and more recently - N320. At least N320 can be had very easily as of late. Most of the well known online vendors have N320 in stock.

 

[eisenhow]

231 is a great powder but I've had great results with other fast burning powders like TG, Bullseye, and more recently - N320. At least N320 can be had very easily as of late. Most of the well known online vendors have N320 in stock.

titegroup is my go to powder for plated/jacketed 9mm and 40. Shooting a 32 round stage with titegroup and revo will turn the forcing cone into a branding iron. I experimented with WST a few years ago with less consistent results than HP38. I could never bring myself to pay the steep price for N320 but that may change.

 

[DW357]

titegroup is my go to powder for plated/jacketed 9mm and 40. Shooting a 32 round stage with titegroup and revo will turn the forcing cone into a branding iron. I experimented with WST a few years ago with less consistent results than HP38. I could never bring myself to pay the steep price for N320 but that may change.

Yeah I got 1/2 pound of TG left and I got 8lbs of N320 that I'm starting to use for plinking and IDPA. I wasn't a fan of the burned/stained cases and stained muzzle of my pistols when I used TG. N320 seems to burn much less hot. It's about $10 more per pound than TG but divided over 1,750 rounds (what I get from a pound using ~4 gr) it's only like an extra penny per round more.

 

[drgrant]

Yeah I got 1/2 pound of TG left and I got 8lbs of N320 that I'm starting to use for plinking and IDPA. I wasn't a fan of the burned/stained cases and stained muzzle of my pistols when I used TG. N320 seems to burn much less hot. It's about $10 more per pound than TG but divided over 1,750 rounds (what I get from a pound using ~4 gr) it's only like an extra penny per round more.

The problem with N320 is unless you lay in a shitload of it when its available, when you run out murphys law dictates that the market will be dry of VV.

TG honestly isn't that dirty. It does burn hot though, and actually heats up the gun faster, but this is really only noticeable when you run long strings with it.

-Mike

 

[DW357]

The problem with N320 is unless you lay in a shitload of it when its available, when you run out murphys law dictates that the market will be dry of VV.

TG honestly isn't that dirty. It does burn hot though, and actually heats up the gun faster, but this is really only noticeable when you run long strings with it.

-Mike

Very true. Most VV powders were impossible to find until recently they've stayed in stock for quite awhile online.

Yeah TG isn't filthy by any means, I just get some fouling on my forearms when shooting my TG loads. Not the end of the world as the loads are plenty accurate.

 

[Golddiggie]

What powder has the same characteristics as 231? I love it for .45 ACP loads.

 

[jasons]

The problem with N320 is unless you lay in a shitload of it when its available, when you run out murphys law dictates that the market will be dry of VV.

That's pretty much true with any powder these days though. These days the smart reloader buys cases instead of kegs.

 

[DW357]

That's pretty much true with any powder these days though. These days the smart reloader buys cases instead of kegs.

And to offset the hazmat fee, you have to buy a large amount as you're well aware. Though the limits on my last order were 16lbs which is a s***ton of powder lol. Kept 8 and sold the other 8 to friends that needed it.

 

[drgrant]

That's pretty much true with any powder these days though. These days the smart reloader buys cases instead of kegs.

True, but even during non-sucky market conditions, VV can mysteriously disappear when everything else is in abundance. I generally tell friends getting into it
though... "you wanna lay in an entire year worth of mats if you can afford it, primers, powder, and bullets. That way when things go tits up you dodge the problem mostly."

-Mike

 

[milktree]

I'm surprised that Winchester isn't developing and marketing a modern chemistry powder that has the same or similar behavior to 231. That must be possible, and it would make Win 321 enthusiasts happy. (or at least less annoyed)

Presumably a modern chemistry powder would be a lot cheaper to make, so they could sell it for less than 231, which wouldn't hurt either.

 

[jasons]

True, but even during non-sucky market conditions, VV can mysteriously disappear when everything else is in abundance. I generally tell friends getting into it
though... "you wanna lay in an entire year worth of mats if you can afford it, primers, powder, and bullets. That way when things go tits up you dodge the problem mostly."

-Mike

That's true. It's weird VV is like some sort of bizarre opposite land / other dimension stuff. Seems like when normal powder is plentiful you can't find VV anywhere. Now that "normal" power is a bit harder to find I'm seeing it everywhere.

I do like N320 though. With how little I've been shooting the pistols I probably have a lifetime supply at this point.

 

[DW357]

True, but even during non-sucky market conditions, VV can mysteriously disappear when everything else is in abundance. I generally tell friends getting into it
though... "you wanna lay in an entire year worth of mats if you can afford it, primers, powder, and bullets. That way when things go tits up you dodge the problem mostly."

-Mike

Yeah I learned this real quick. I got into reloading the same week as Sandy Hook - buying a press and components etc. Definitely overpaid on primers but luckily bought powder at my local shop a few weeks prior at fair prices. I've since bought as much powder/primers/bullets I can afford and store in my cabinet to last the next panic buy.

 

[drgrant]

Yeah I learned this real quick. I got into reloading the same week as Sandy Hook - buying a press and components etc. Definitely overpaid on primers but luckily bought powder at my local shop a few weeks prior at fair prices. I've since bought as much powder/primers/bullets I can afford and store in my cabinet to last the next panic buy.

Don't feel too bad I got into it around Obamascare 1, although Sandy Hookmaster was about 10 times worse than that. Even during Obamascare 1 reloading mats were around for awhile even though guns and ammo were getting hit hard.

-Mike

 

[jpm]

Anyone tried CFE Pistol? I think that was supposed to be similar to 231 and definitely a modern chemistry powder.

 

[EddieCoyle]

What powder has the same characteristics as 231? I love it for .45 ACP loads.

Try 700X

 

[leewongfei]

All I really want is a reliable supply of something.

I'll gladly put in the time/money to make it work if I could be assured of getting it when I need it. It sucks when you work up a load for a set of components and then can't get them.

I agree completely. It honestly seems like everything is pointing toward titetgroup as being the only powder i can reliable find whenever i go to the local shops. Maybe i should stock up.

 

[headednorth]

Yeah I learned this real quick. I got into reloading the same week as Sandy Hook - buying a press and components etc. Definitely overpaid on primers but luckily bought powder at my local shop a few weeks prior at fair prices. I've since bought as much powder/primers/bullets I can afford and store in my cabinet to last the next panic buy.

I got into it just after Sandy Hook as well. Ive been trying to add to the stockpile whenever I can while things are fairly quiet and sane. I dont want to be the one scouring the earth for components a week before the wicked witch's coronation.

 

[mac1911]

I'm surprised that Winchester isn't developing and marketing a modern chemistry powder that has the same or similar behavior to 231. That must be possible, and it would make Win 321 enthusiasts happy. (or at least less annoyed)

Presumably a modern chemistry powder would be a lot cheaper to make, so they could sell it for less than 231, which wouldn't hurt either.

Winchester is not making powder, it's a name. Hodgdon is licensed to use the Winchester name. Won't surprise me one bit to see the Winchester name dropped all together for powder.
So little powder is made in the states. So,basically no matter how much people love 231 if the manufactures do not want to produce it then it will be discontinued.

 

[knfmn]

I dont want to be the one scouring the earth for components a week before the wicked witch's coronation.

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I'm not BSing at all when I say that anyone with the funds needs to stock up now. Things are going to get real bad when she gets into office in a hurry.

 

[mac1911]

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I'm not BSing at all when I say that anyone with the funds needs to stock up now. Things are going to get real bad when she gets into office in a hurry.

All kidding aside you should have a good stock pile. I figure you should have enough to last you a min of 2 years. Or if your restricted to storage amounts you should be maxed out the best you can.
I'm still not finding some powders by the 8lb jugs and my favorite vendors still don't have powder in stock and when they do it's limited and the hazmat and shipping makes it more money than local shops

 

[Cabin Fever]

Winchester is not making powder, it's a name. Hodgdon is licensed to use the Winchester name. Won't surprise me one bit to see the Winchester name dropped all together for powder.
So little powder is made in the states. So,basically no matter how much people love 231 if the manufactures do not want to produce it then it will be discontinued.

Where is all the powder made if not the US? Serious question. I know about the VV stuff being imported. But what else?

 

[bigblue]

Are you kidding me? I switched to HP-38 from SR7625 because THAT was being phased out. Now HP-38 is being phased out? FML

What's next?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Where is all the powder made if not the US? Serious question. I know about the VV stuff being imported. But what else?

St Marks Powder if Florida is a big player and makes many of the Hodgdon powders.

 

[Romokid]

Are you kidding me? I switched to HP-38 from SR7625 because THAT was being phased out. Now HP-38 is being phased out? FML

What's next?

Yeah I know what you mean. I think I have about 5lbs left of 231&HP-38. I like how it meters in my setup and I have all my loads worked up. Looks like it will be time to do some more research once I run out, but I should be all set for a while.