Why no long action AR upper assemblies available

NHAtHeart said:
isn't an 07 ffl only if you plan to SELL the firearm? you can buy and 80% receiver, mill it out yourself, use it perfectly legally without any paperwork I thought (in a free state), you would only need to worry about stuff if you wanted to sell it.
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I assumed when I read about milling your own receivers that vellnueve meant from scratch. As in I made this from a block of Al and put my own serial # on it. I am pretty sure that makes you a manufacturer.
 
oneswithfunes said:
I assumed when I read about milling your own receivers that vellnueve meant from scratch. As in I made this from a block of Al and put my own serial # on it. I am pretty sure that makes you a manufacturer.
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If you make them for your personal use, and not to sell, you are not a manufacturer.

If you make a bunch, the ATF might not beleive you when you say they're all for you, though.
 
I don't see the problem here. So what if someone want an AR-10 platform chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum? What if someone likes the ergonomics, action and reliability? Who says that a hunting rifle needs to be the beautifully stocked example of wood and steel posted by Jose? I think we could actually use a bunch of these rifles out in the field and I hope more folks seek out this option for their hunting and sporting purposes...

I tend to operate on a system of "want" rather than "need" at times....
 
MassMark said:
I don't see the problem here. So what if someone want an AR-10 platform chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum? What if someone likes the ergonomics, action and reliability? Who says that a hunting rifle needs to be the beautifully stocked example of wood and steel posted by Jose? I think we could actually use a bunch of these rifles out in the field and I hope more folks seek out this option for their hunting and sporting purposes...

I tend to operate on a system of "want" rather than "need" at times....
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I think the problem is that most everyone thinks that a long-action sized AR-style rifle would be ugly, heavy, and awkward, and that for practical, as well as aesthetic reasons, it is their opinions that more traditionally styled weapons would be the better option.
 
MassMark said:
Yeah, so does Jim Zumbo...[thinking]
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I don't know if I'd go that far. I think it's mostly a case of no one seems to think the AR platform could be made to work with long cartridges (for autoloading, anyway), or it wouldnt be worth the hassle anyway. I don't think anyone is saying that ARs have no place in the hunting world. Hell, I hunt with a tacticooled-out 870.


ETA: If you can effectively design and manufacture a kick-assed EBR in 7,62x65, I'd buy one.
 
atmay said:
I don't know if I'd go that far. I think it's mostly a case of no one seems to think the AR platform could be made to work with long cartridges (for autoloading, anyway), or it wouldnt be worth the hassle anyway. I don't think anyone is saying that ARs have no place in the hunting world. Hell, I hunt with a tacticooled-out 870.


ETA: If you can effectively design and manufacture a kick-assed EBR in 7,62x65, I'd buy one.
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Will be interesting to see if Bushmaster gives Cobb wings to fly again - I think the 400 is sexy as hell:

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2900/2993.htm
 
Jose said:
I'm no Zumbo, and I am here to tell you that a Mauser-pattern bolt action rifle is simply a superior design within a big game rifle's parameters.
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OH YEAH??? And I'm here to tell you Mr. Mauser man, that tht rifle of yours is absolutely stellar! [cheers] Details please?

atmay said:
very interesting indeed.

it is ugly as sin with the larger magazines, though.


16lb AR though.....dayum.
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That's what the gym is for...[smile]
 
MassMark said:
OH YEAH??? And I'm here to tell you Mr. Mauser man, that tht rifle of yours is absolutely stellar! [cheers] Details please?
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pic000.jpg


CZ 550 Full Stock 6.5x55. Warne Maxima QD rings for CZ receiver dovetail. Old school Weaver K4 (El Paso, TX) scope, rebuilt, resealed, and refilled with N2.

How's that for a classic? The only way it could be better is if it was a genuine Mannlicher-Schonauer. [smile]
 
Jose said:
pic000.jpg


CZ 550 Full Stock 6.5x55. Warne Maxima QD rings for CZ receiver dovetail. Old school Weaver K4 (El Paso, TX) scope, rebuilt, resealed, and refilled with N2.

How's that for a classic? The only way it could be better is if it was a genuine Mannlicher-Schonauer. [smile]
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Damn Stan...That is a nice ride. Old school is so cool....
 
David Balkus said:
A AR !8 is a similar platform to the AR 15,But in .308...And i woud imagine ,could be re-chamberd in 30-06
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I thought it was Armalite's answer to the ar15 but with a piston? I am pretty sure it was only chambered in 5.56.

atmay said:
If you make them for your personal use, and not to sell, you are not a manufacturer.

If you make a bunch, the ATF might not beleive you when you say they're all for you, though.
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So I can turn out as many firearms as I want for my personal use? I checked and it seems that you can build for personal use AND transfer as olng as it is marked according to 27 CFR § 478.92. Very cool.
 
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"The AR-18 is a cheap and sleazy rifle."

http://www.weaponryonline.com/Reviews-req-showcontent-id-15.html

The AR-18 is a cheap and sleazy rifle. Intended as a low-cost alternative weapon for countries that could not afford the latest Western rifles, it never achieved commercial success, but it has won a nasty reputation as a terrorist weapon, particularly in the hands of the Provisional IRA. Despite its pressed steel receiver and spot welds, it is a highly effective 5.56-mm rifle. The gun can be broken down for concealment without ruining the zeroing, so it can be pulled out of hiding and used immediately and accurately.
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David Balkus said:
AR-18????See armalite[thinking]
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David Balkus said:
A AR 18 is a similar platform to the AR 15,But in .308...And i woud imagine ,could be re-chamberd in 30-06
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Wrong, it's 5.56. And you fail to see the point that the AR-15 and AR-10 platforms are simply not long enough to accept the cartridges being discussed here.

MassMark said:
I don't see the problem here. So what if someone want an AR-10 platform chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum? What if someone likes the ergonomics, action and reliability? Who says that a hunting rifle needs to be the beautifully stocked example of wood and steel posted by Jose? I think we could actually use a bunch of these rifles out in the field and I hope more folks seek out this option for their hunting and sporting purposes...

I tend to operate on a system of "want" rather than "need" at times....
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This isn't about "need." This is about what the marketplace will support... there's not enough support for a mass-produced long-action AR to justify the costs for a large company to design and mass-produce new receivers and parts specifically for them.
 
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MassMark said:
Will be interesting to see if Bushmaster gives Cobb wings to fly again - I think the 400 is sexy as hell:

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2900/2993.htm
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Any larger pics of those? I can't tell for sure, but it kind of looks like the upper and mag well are one piece of metal on a couple of those.

It might be possible to make beefy uppers with integrated mag wells to sit on a modified lower (hog out the end of the mag well and thread the holes from the front take-down pin for attachment screws) w/o having to do any federal paperwork.

Again, not practical, and nowhere near as sexy as Jose's setup...but possible if you've got the time & tools. (Then again, what's not?)
 
In terms of weight, I usually have 20+ lbs on me anyway with rifle, backpack, food, water, seat, etc. when hunting. My hunting rifle is coming in at about 10 lbs anyway with the big scope it has on it.

From a dimensional standpoint, 7.62x51 (0.308) versus 7.62x63 (30-06), it doesn't seem like its all that different (barely more than 0.5 inches). So, unless the thickness of the lower and/or upper receivers have to be bulked up to withstand differences in pressure, I am not seeing that there is some huge mechanical leap needed to go from .308 to .30-06.

Looking at general SAAMI pressure tables, the 30-06 is loaded to 50,000 cup and the .308 is loaded to 62,000 psi. I will have to tdo the conversion on that one to see how much a pressure difference there is. Edit: Looks like basically a wash and pressures are the same.

The lack of 30-06 AR platform leads me to believe that companies went with the NATO standard (.308) rather than the preferred american cartridge. As NATO sucks, I call foul on the whole thing.
 
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Baystatesuks said:
From a dimensional standpoint, 7.62x51 (0.308) versus 7.62x63 (30-06), it doesn't seem like its all that different (barely more than 0.5 inches). So, unless the thickness of the lower and/or upper receivers have to be bulked up to withstand differences in pressure, I am not seeing that there is some huge mechanical leap needed to go from .308 to .30-06.
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Baystatesuks said:
From a dimensional standpoint, 7.62x51 (0.308) versus 7.62x63 (30-06), it doesn't seem like its all that different (barely more than 0.5 inches). So, unless the thickness of the lower and/or upper receivers have to be bulked up to withstand differences in pressure, I am not seeing that there is some huge mechanical leap needed to go from .308 to .30-06.
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.308 is 2.800" overall length
.30-06 OAL is 3.340"
Almost all of that difference is case length difference, and while the .30-06 runs a little less pressure than the .308, you're also looking at adding larger holes (ejection port, mag well) when you go to a larger case size.

.300 Remington SA Ultra Mag has been done in an AR10 (by Armalite), and is 2.825" overall length. In the magazine, the cartridge BARELY fits.

The problem that's keeping these from appearing in "hunting" calibers is that the R&D has already been done for "non-hunting" calibers. These were developed as standardized military rifles, not hunting rifles - thus NATO spec. We've already been through the fact that it can be done...heck, I'd buy one, and it's already been seen that it's been done by one or more companies...but nothing's currently offered and the R&D costs incurred by a major (or minor) manufacturer to make a new one, and make sure that nothing blows up would likely not be made back on the one or two "hunting" calibers gained.

There are plenty of other guns that do this that are readily available, and there are plenty of other nonstandard chamberings available that don't require major modifications to the upper and lower design. Want big holes? Run .50 Beowulf out of an AR15 or .338 Federal or 450 Marlin out of an AR10.

It's pretty clear to me why there aren't any currently, but that's not stopping you from modifying your own upper and lower and doing your own personal R&D. As I said, I'd buy one...but you, I, and the two dozen others on here that'd buy one wouldn't turn a profit for anyone.
 
MetalgodZ said:
.308 is 2.800" overall length
.30-06 OAL is 3.340"
Almost all of that difference is case length difference, and while the .30-06 runs a little less pressure than the .308, you're also looking at adding larger holes (ejection port, mag well) when you go to a larger case size.

.300 Remington SA Ultra Mag has been done in an AR10 (by Armalite), and is 2.825" overall length. In the magazine, the cartridge BARELY fits.

The problem that's keeping these from appearing in "hunting" calibers is that the R&D has already been done for "non-hunting" calibers. These were developed as standardized military rifles, not hunting rifles - thus NATO spec. We've already been through the fact that it can be done...heck, I'd buy one, and it's already been seen that it's been done by one or more companies...but nothing's currently offered and the R&D costs incurred by a major (or minor) manufacturer to make a new one, and make sure that nothing blows up would likely not be made back on the one or two "hunting" calibers gained.

There are plenty of other guns that do this that are readily available, and there are plenty of other nonstandard chamberings available that don't require major modifications to the upper and lower design. Want big holes? Run .50 Beowulf out of an AR15 or .338 Federal or 450 Marlin out of an AR10.

It's pretty clear to me why there aren't any currently, but that's not stopping you from modifying your own upper and lower and doing your own personal R&D. As I said, I'd buy one...but you, I, and the two dozen others on here that'd buy one wouldn't turn a profit for anyone.
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I agree with everything you say. Alexander Arms is right down the road from me, so a 6.5 Grendel or .50 Beowulf would make a great hunting rifle.

Given then above, I am unsure how much traction the NSSF's push to make AR's a big game hunting platform will really get since there are many who refuse to use things other than the 30-06. I know several with a Remington semi-auto in 30-06 that would prefer something more substantive as those things kick like hell. But they wanted a semi-auto in 30-06 as that was one of the few choices available.
 
I just got an e-mail from Bushmaster saying that the MCR rifles will be available second half of 2010. So, for example, you can buy the 30-06 rifle and then buy a different upper and mags in any one or more of:

8mmx57, 240 Weatherby Magnum, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Remington, 270 Winchester, 7x57mm Mauser, 284 Winchester, 280 Remington, 8mm-06, 35 Whelen, 6.5 x 284, 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser, 6mm x 284, 260 Remington 270 Winchester Short Magnum, 7 x 64 BRENNEKE, 7.65 x 53 Mauser, 9.3 x 62mm Mauser

or go up to the MCR400 for any one or more of

257 Weatherby Magnum , 264 Winchester Magnum , 270 Weatherby Magnum 7mm Remington Magnum , 7mm Weatherby Magnum , 300 H&H Magnum , 300 Winchester Magnum 300 Remington Ultra Magnum , 300 Weatherby Magnum , 308 Norma Magnum , 338 Winchester Magnum 338 LAPUA Magnum , 338 Remington Ultra Magnum , 340 Weatherby Magnum , 350 Remington Magnum 358 Norma Magnum , 375 H&H Magnum , 8mm Remington Magnum , 378 Weatherby Magnum 416 RIGBY , 416 Remington Magnum , 416 Taylor , 458 Winchester Magnum.

Price unknown.
 
Baystatesuks said:
257 Weatherby Magnum , 264 Winchester Magnum , 270 Weatherby Magnum 7mm Remington Magnum , 7mm Weatherby Magnum , 300 H&H Magnum , 300 Winchester Magnum 300 Remington Ultra Magnum , 300 Weatherby Magnum , 308 Norma Magnum , 338 Winchester Magnum 338 LAPUA Magnum , 338 Remington Ultra Magnum , 340 Weatherby Magnum , 350 Remington Magnum 358 Norma Magnum , 375 H&H Magnum , 8mm Remington Magnum , 378 Weatherby Magnum 416 RIGBY , 416 Remington Magnum , 416 Taylor , 458 Winchester Magnum.

Price unknown.
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[laugh2] most of that ammo starts around 2.00 per round, .416 Rigby is close to 10.00 per round. What are you hunting that you need more than 1?
I fail to see the current problem in need of a fix here? 06 does you no good over 308 unless you are pushing the heavy's There are lighter, simpler and much more relabile rifles to hunt with.
 
Baystatesuks said:
I just got an e-mail from Bushmaster saying that the MCR rifles will be available second half of 2010. So, for example, you can buy the 30-06 rifle and then buy a different upper and mags in any one or more of:

8mmx57, 240 Weatherby Magnum, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Remington, 270 Winchester, 7x57mm Mauser, 284 Winchester, 280 Remington, 8mm-06, 35 Whelen, 6.5 x 284, 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser, 6mm x 284, 260 Remington 270 Winchester Short Magnum, 7 x 64 BRENNEKE, 7.65 x 53 Mauser, 9.3 x 62mm Mauser

or go up to the MCR400 for any one or more of

257 Weatherby Magnum , 264 Winchester Magnum , 270 Weatherby Magnum 7mm Remington Magnum , 7mm Weatherby Magnum , 300 H&H Magnum , 300 Winchester Magnum 300 Remington Ultra Magnum , 300 Weatherby Magnum , 308 Norma Magnum , 338 Winchester Magnum 338 LAPUA Magnum , 338 Remington Ultra Magnum , 340 Weatherby Magnum , 350 Remington Magnum 358 Norma Magnum , 375 H&H Magnum , 8mm Remington Magnum , 378 Weatherby Magnum 416 RIGBY , 416 Remington Magnum , 416 Taylor , 458 Winchester Magnum.

Price unknown.
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Very cool

When the price of .308 started going thru the roof - I stocked up on 30.06 from CMP so I would have something in a "large" caliber to shoot and keep the Garands fed. Then I started thinking: too bad there isn't a modern (AR style or other) "assault" rifle that shoots 30.06.

And I did some searching and found the Cobb MCR-300 - and also found out they sold out to Bushmaster - and Bushmaster put the MCR rifles on the back burner.

It's very cool to hear that the MCR rifles will be available next year - time to start saving up, and buying up BAR mags........
 
oneswithfunes said:
[laugh2] most of that ammo starts around 2.00 per round, .416 Rigby is close to 10.00 per round. What are you hunting that you need more than 1?
I fail to see the current problem in need of a fix here? 06 does you no good over 308 unless you are pushing the heavy's There are lighter, simpler and much more relabile rifles to hunt with.
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I think 30-06 is available in more bullet weights than .308. Plus 30-06 is american made - born and bred here and killed more Germans than I think any other caliber has killed in war (courtesy of the M1 Garand).

You can pick up 20 rounds of soft point 30-06 around here for about $8 on sale. So $0.40 per round. That ain't bad.

.308 is a Nato round. Nato sucks.
 

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