why does a civilian need a 30 round mag?

davemata said:
Another good answer.
"Some people need to be killed, and some people need to be killed deader than others."
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It is pretty obvious that anyone asking this question either isn't concerned with anyone else's life or, more likely hasn't ever faced an attacker(s) intent on doing them serious harm.

Most often, this is a rhetorical question in which case, the answer doesn't matter because it won't be heard.

If someone really wants to know the specifics of how more than 10 rounds can save your life, then:
a. They can ask DHS, who thinks not only do you need an AR with a 30rd mag, but it should be select-fire and I agree!:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...fire-pdw-great-personal-defense-who-knew.html

b. Need to check this stat, but didn't the doctor presenting on traumatic medicine report that 5 out of 7 gun shot victims survive? Which means even after being shot, more than once, your attacker could remain a threat to you.

c. As police shooting where dozens of shots are fired and only a few hit the intended target demonstrate, hitting your target under duress is not easy - even more difficult to stop them given "b" above. The human body is a pretty robust machine and can absorb a lot of damage in the short term before becoming "combat ineffective."

d. Consider this quote:
"for both Assault and Robbery, you are more likely to face three or more attackers than just two attackers! Something to be aware of for sure."
What is the most likely attack on the street?
(looking for the source data on that)

e. Consider also home invasion - darkness, complex engagement around obstacles, walls, rooms, unknown number of attackers coming from multiple points of entry, etc...

But again, 99% of the people asking this question aren't waiting for an answer and won't listen, so the first answer is always, "what do you think gives you the right to tell me I can't?" Why did it require a Constitutional amendment to ban alcohol and another to lift that ban, yet you think you can ban boxes of metal with a spring? What part of "Shall not be infringed" are you having trouble reading, because I can help you sound it out?

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EZEKIEL 25:17 said:
My legistlators certainly know how I feel about this. The problem is that they don't give a rats ass how I or folsk like me feel about this as we are the minority.
This of course leaves me with limited options should a confiscatory ruling become the law. (1) move to another state that is further to the correct side of this issue , or (2) attach myself and consideralbe sums of money to a lawsuit to re-assert my rigths once I have standing to do so.

But since I do not have unlimited funds at my disposal to protect those rights, the sad reality is that (1) is likely to be cheaper than (2).
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We have to show up in numbers - find a friend or 500. I know it feels futile, but with a tiny bit of organization we can amplify each one of our voices.
 
Here is a good list

Why semi-automatic rifles are a good choice for home defense | Radio Vice Online

A firearm can be an appropriate part of a complete home-defense plan, but it should not be the only plan. Motion activated exterior lights, locking your doors and windows, an alarm system, and a barking dog (if appropriate) are important. Your plan should include where you will go and where your family members will go if someone breaks in. Call for help and take a defensive approach where you – and your firearm if you have one – are*between the intruder or intruders and your family. This may be difficult in some home designs, but you need to figure it out. I personally do not think you should “clear” your house if you have, or strongly suspect, an intruder. Many law enforcement officers I know will not clear their home by themselves.

Why a semi-automatic rifle a good choice for home defense.

Here is a list of valid reasons, in no particular order.

You can mount a light, red dot sight and/or a laser to the rifle to make it easy to used and aim during the day or night.
They have a reasonable recoil, making the gun*- for many users – easier to shoot as compared to a defense-caliber*shotgun or pistol.
They can be customized to “fit” a variety of body types and shooting styles.*They can be configured and adjusted for different shooting distances (less than 5 yards to more than 200 yards).
The*.223/5.56 self-defense*round is appropriate for use within a home, even in an urban environment. Ballistic experts have found rounds from these calibers “dump energy” quickly and break apart or*begin to tumble after penetrating the first barrier.*Will rifle rounds go through walls?*You bet. Will pistol calibers like 9mm, .40 and .45 go through walls?*You bet. Will shotgun rounds go through walls? You bet. That said, there is significant evidence the .223/5.56 self-defense rounds penetrate no more than, and often less than traditional handgun calibers and many shotgun rounds.
A rifle is*much*more capable of stopping a threat as compared to a pistol.
Semi-automatic rifles are more accurate than a pistol or shotgun.
Ammunition is (normally) readily available and (normally) priced within reason. Present time excluded.
You can buy high-capacity magazines for many semi-automatic rifles. In a self-defense situation, you want to*avoid*manipulating the weapon at all except for pulling the trigger straight back.*Law enforcement and civilians do not favor high-capacity magazines so they can shoot more rounds,*they favor them so they can*manipulate*their weapon less. If reloading is needed, it is possible but*let’s be completely honest, in many self defense situations,*ten rounds may not be enough.
 
cekim, while I agree with everything you wrote... really, I do.
It doesn't matter.

Wassat Dave? IT DOESN'T MATTER, and you know it. They don't care for your response beyond one of two things:
1. To trap you with an "AHA! You ARE an a**h***, and this is why you kill crazy bastard, just don't kill me!"
2. To twist your response around and use it as a way to not only label you as a malcontent, but to use it to assume your stances on other social/political issues.

It's not a question that someone who respects you would ask. If they don't respect you, no matter of rationality or logic will matter.
 
davemata said:
cekim, while I agree with everything you wrote... really, I do.
It doesn't matter.

Wassat Dave? IT DOESN'T MATTER, and you know it. They don't care for your response beyond one of two things:
1. To trap you with an "AHA! You ARE an a**h***, and this is why you kill crazy bastard, just don't kill me!"
2. To twist your response around and use it as a way to not only label you as a malcontent, but to use it to assume your stances on other social/political issues.

It's not a question that someone who respects you would ask. If they don't respect you, no matter of rationality or logic will matter.
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. There is really no point in wasting effort trying to dignify the question with a response.
 
ochmude said:
Yeah, pretty much. There is really no point in wasting effort trying to dignify the question with a response.
Click to expand...
Agree, most of the time, which is exactly what I said in prior posts - "invalid question". The hardest part of "politics" for me is remembering that you run into an awful lot of people who treat it like religion.

However, as many people as you will find that foam at the mouth and spit out dogma, you will even more who, over time will begin to reject the programming and may come around to the earth being round and revolving around the sun rather than flat and the other way around.

I know this to be true, because dogmatic beliefs of society DO change. When do they change? When they do. Why do they change? Because they do. It is "one of those things."

So, while the first and most correct answer is indeed, "your question is invalid, why do you think I need your permission?" or something to that effect, it is good to be prepared when you run into the many "agnostic" amongst the flock.

I have seen more than enough "former liberal-anti-gun" at the range to know this to be true.
 
Actually, most people I talk to that say this aren't anti-gun... they just don't know anything about guns. They don't see why we 'need' 30 round magazines... to them, it's a perfectly legitimate train of thought because they have literally spent the sum total of less than a minute thinking about it their entire lives. They don't know anything about the Constitution or the Second Amendment. To them, the government can make any law they want, for any reason. Most people do not understand, and they think, without thinking, that banning 30rnd magazines will prevent their use in crime.

This question needs an answer for the 'average person', and unfortunately, all of the good and proper answers are TL,DR for the average person. We might as well be talking in Swahili if we start talking about defensive statistics or manufacturing practices and crap in all kinds of 'crazy gun-nut' language, or the Constitution and structure and powers of the Federal Government in 'crazy tea-party' language.

We need to develop a one-sentence answer that is simple enough for public consumption... that is NOT aggressive or bumper-sticker slogany, and does not require any prior knowledge of guns or government, and does not include facts or statistics which must be looked up else easily dismissed.
 
zOmbi, I am afraid the "one sentence answer" will always appear aggressive to anyone who doesn't read the other sentences of the DoI, or the BoR, or the Constitution, or as importantly, the many paragraphs on the history of that event.

If you are starting from "government as a force of good, entitled to a monopoly on violence" and "the British are coming" as your context for the founding of this nation, nothing we say is going to sound like anything other than aggressive.

The truth of what we say is that we are trying desperately to ensure that our Constitutional Republic remains free AND peaceful against the odds for much longer than would be possible or has ever been demonstrated amongst prior pure mob-rule Democracies.

That is not what they hear when we talk about Tyranny.

The only answer is to engage, respectfully, those who will and educate them. I struggle mightily with this task myself, but it is the only answer.
 
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Because:

1) Fewer than 3% of criminal shootings involve the firing of 11 or more shots.
2) Even NYC, commended for have the most extensive officer shooing training program in the country need for fire more than 11 shots 25% of the time to stop an aggressor.
3) An offensive shooter, intent on killing people, will have civilians focused on leaving the scene and will have opportunities to change magazines.
4) A defensive shooter, intent on stopping and immediate threat of serious bodily harm and or death will, most likely, not have the opportunity to change magazines.

Limiting civilian magazine size does nothing to deter a criminal aggressor, even if criminal aggressors are limited in their magazine capacity but is does significantly reduce civilian's self-defense capabilities.
 
I am a pretty good shot...at the range. Never had 3 armed assailants trying to break into my home though. I have NO IDEA if I could hit the mark in the confusion and dark! Throw in a few warning shots from the bedroom hoping they leave the premises, and 30 rounds in a mag no longer sounds like a lot to me! 7 round mag--pretty sure one of those three would be untouched! And with the fewer rounds, there would have to be NO warning shots--meaning whoever comes up those stairs is getting shot at immediately.

In other words, if you are a bleeding heart liberal concerned with such things...having more rounds in my magazine means it is more likely that the bad guys will have a chance to "turn their lives around".

And, substitue in some frightened mom in the attic with her 2 shaking kids. Someone who has been to the range maybe 10 times in her life. She is going to stop all three with her 7 round magazine?
 
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We need to stop playing their games. We can argue reason and logic until we are blue in the face, and they don't care. Tell them they aren't getting our guns. Tell them you don't care what they think about it because the the constitution supports us.
This is why they try to trick you into silly arguments to get you off the main point, which is individual rights granted by God, enumerated in the constitution.
 
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When I think about why a civilian might need a standard cap mag, I think of a cop. Then I take away two things - backup and the choice to engage.
 
suppressive fire, (he,he)
I used that one on a banner yesterday ,he was left scratching his head huh?

i told him if you dont know what it means ,stop making stupid comments on mag capacity.
 
Spanz said:
I am a pretty good shot...at the range. Never had 3 armed assailants trying to break into my home though. I have NO IDEA if I could hit the mark in the confusion and dark! Throw in a few warning shots from the bedroom hoping they leave the premises, and 30 rounds in a mag no longer sounds like a lot to me! 7 round mag--pretty sure one of those three would be untouched! And with the fewer rounds, there would have to be NO warning shots--meaning whoever comes up those stairs is getting shot at immediately.

In other words, if you are a bleeding heart liberal concerned with such things...having more rounds in my magazine means it is more likely that the bad guys will have a chance to "turn their lives around".

And, substitue in some frightened mom in the attic with her 2 shaking kids. Someone who has been to the range maybe 10 times in her life. She is going to stop all three with her 7 round magazine?
Click to expand...


what is this "warning shot" that you speak of?
 
SteelShooter said:
what is this "warning shot" that you speak of?
Click to expand...

Steel:

Warning Shot: The distinctive sound of a pump action being racked, charging handle being released or handgun slide being readied.


It's not my fault if they don't understand english well enough to understand that sounds means GET OUT
 
Lots of pages on this... the best answer is the following:

Jackass: "Why do you need 30 round high capacity clips?" (Intentional usage of improper terminology)
Me : "Because that is what I want to have"
Jackass: "<insert some asinine question regarding dead children being my fault because I own a firearm> ?"
Me : *walking away*

If you have answered the question and they did not listen or make an attempt to understand, then they are not worth the effort. Even my super anti gun friend(No one needs a gun, not civlilians, LEO's, or military) listened to my points and understands that people own guns because bad people have guns and we cannot get all of them and ensure they will not get more. The idea of personal defense instead of hoping someone else will defend you is a basic principle that anyone can usually understand, and if they don't get it, then walk away and save yourself the heartburn and grey hair you will get from bouncing your head off the wall of ignorance. Some of these people... I'd rather argue with a 5 year old over why they need to go to bed at 8 pm with them juiced up on a double espresso.
 
ShadeWPI said:
Steel:

Warning Shot: The distinctive sound of a pump action being racked, charging handle being released or handgun slide being readied.


It's not my fault if they don't understand english well enough to understand that sounds means GET OUT
Click to expand...

See, if I did any of those things I would be ejecting a round, and that is not acceptable. I would have to find it later, bend down and pick it up , reload, all kinds of headaches. And with the price of ammo these days, I don't think I'm going to waste one anywhere, because then I have to hire a carpenter or something to fix the woodwork or the ceiling, all very intensive. I just prefer SSS.
 
z0mbi said:
Actually, most people I talk to that say this aren't anti-gun... they just don't know anything about guns. They don't see why we 'need' 30 round magazines... to them, it's a perfectly legitimate train of thought because they have literally spent the sum total of less than a minute thinking about it their entire lives. They don't know anything about the Constitution or the Second Amendment. To them, the government can make any law they want, for any reason. Most people do not understand, and they think, without thinking, that banning 30rnd magazines will prevent their use in crime.

This question needs an answer for the 'average person', and unfortunately, all of the good and proper answers are TL,DR for the average person. We might as well be talking in Swahili if we start talking about defensive statistics or manufacturing practices and crap in all kinds of 'crazy gun-nut' language, or the Constitution and structure and powers of the Federal Government in 'crazy tea-party' language.

We need to develop a one-sentence answer that is simple enough for public consumption... that is NOT aggressive or bumper-sticker slogany, and does not require any prior knowledge of guns or government, and does not include facts or statistics which must be looked up else easily dismissed.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any one sentence answer that will cover the subject. I also agree that we can't be agressive in our answers. We must not sound like gun nuts or red-necks. Spouting about the 2A is not enough either.

I try to educate and have made some headway with those that I have talked with. I start with the "It's the difference between a criminal/bad guy having time to plan for his attack versus the unwary citizen having to react to the criminal's attack. The bad guy can take the time to plan, and this allows him to fill his pockets or backpack with as many magazines as he wants. If he was limitged to a smaller capacity (10 or so) magazine, it only means he can carry more of them. On the other hand, the good guy doesn't know when (or if) a bad guy will ever attack, so he can't walk around with a backpack full of smaller capacity magazines all the time. So he wants one standard capacity magazine that is full and ready to go when he needs it. Most pistols today hold between 10 and 19 rounds in their magazine as they come from the factory.".

This opens the door to further discussions. Most people understand once we have this conversation.

I even had one admit that he now understood the concept behind wanting a 'larget capacity magazine' and then stated that 'but most people don't really need a semi-automatic gun"! I then had to educate him further as he thought a semi-automatic was a 'machine gun'. Once I explained the differences, and that there is no difference (other than the looks) of what they want to ban, and those that they say are 'ok for hunting' guns, he started to understand. Oh, and believe it or not, this particular guy was from California. I can't say the I converted him to 'our side' of the argument, but he did seem to understand the differences and started to think about it in an open mind.
 
My answer is that 30 rounders are standard issue with the AR platform and decades of experience has shown that they are the overall best and most effective mag for that firearm in most scenarios. No further explanation needed.
 
R1ch said:
I don't know of any one sentence answer that will cover the subject. I also agree that we can't be agressive in our answers. We must not sound like gun nuts or red-necks. Spouting about the 2A is not enough either.

I try to educate and have made some headway with those that I have talked with. I start with the "It's the difference between a criminal/bad guy having time to plan for his attack versus the unwary citizen having to react to the criminal's attack. The bad guy can take the time to plan, and this allows him to fill his pockets or backpack with as many magazines as he wants. If he was limitged to a smaller capacity (10 or so) magazine, it only means he can carry more of them. On the other hand, the good guy doesn't know when (or if) a bad guy will ever attack, so he can't walk around with a backpack full of smaller capacity magazines all the time. So he wants one standard capacity magazine that is full and ready to go when he needs it. Most pistols today hold between 10 and 19 rounds in their magazine as they come from the factory.".
Click to expand...

Good explanation. We win this battle one convert at a time. Convert anti to neutral or neutral to leaning pro. This is where we win, not bitching among ourselves or to those already on our side.
 
ShadeWPI said:
Steel:

Warning Shot: The distinctive sound of a pump action being racked, charging handle being released or handgun slide being readied.


It's not my fault if they don't understand english well enough to understand that sounds means GET OUT
Click to expand...

Warning shot is when I miss. I keep my shit ready to go. Safety off, game on.

Scarecrow said:
Jackass: "Why do you need 30 round high capacity clips?" (Intentional usage of improper terminology)
Me : "Because that is what I want to have"
Jackass: "<insert some asinine question regarding dead children being my fault because I own a firearm> ?"
Me : "Not my kin."
Click to expand...
That's how it should roll. No passivity. You look them straight in the eye and give them that.
 
All the terms such as want, need, desire and need are MOOT!! Rights are just that rights they need not have any justification they just are.
 
Ben Cartwright SASS said:
Piers Morgan in his latest clip when asked about a New Yorker who was attacked by 7 men with tire irons said "well he wasn't killed was he, so why should he be allowed to kill someone else"

what a dick!
Click to expand...

I pray for Piers and every other gun banning douchebag to be attacked by 7 men with tire irons. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.
 
Piers is milking that footage of him firing an AR15 to friggin death. Yes, we get it already, you shat your pants.
 
Why one needs a 30 rd mag? Take a ride through London Soho. Sharia law rule in the making. Maybe some of the sheeple will be glad that there are guys with standard capacity feeding devices, who will make sure that women can still go to school tomorrow, when the Djihadists try their crap here.
 

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