When is a School a School (In MASS) ???

[DavidC77]

In many instances it is not so much the law that is screwed up or confusing, but rather those who are enforcing it are confused or are knowingly misinterpreting the law to their benefit.

It's like a fall back excuse when their is an abuse of power by the licensing officer or the street cop arrests someone for the wrong offense, or the DAs charge them under the wrong statute.

The common theme is "these darn laws are so screwed up!"

This is not rocket science!!! If the law says you cant carry on school grounds what is so difficult to understand that possession in your vehicle not within your control does not fall under the statute? The failure to read the statute before charging someone causes an innocent person to spend thousands of dollars for an attorney, have sleepless nights, puts stress on family and relationships, effects job performance, reputation, etc. It is horrible.

We have serious problems with the way the legislators wrote the law and the way the courts have interpreted it, but great emphasis should be on how law enforcement sometimes abuses the laws that are already stacked against us. It is an overwhelmingly unfair advantage.

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I agree with you here Jesse......

It sounds like the law is "You Can Not CARRY On School Grounds".

Now having your gun unloaded and in a locked safe sounds like you would be on the right side of the law.

It would than come down to a test case, say I was seen putting my gun into the safe before I entered the parking lot. That person calls the police and that LEO sees the law as a locked up gun is still carrying. I would then be in for a long drawn out battle that I can not afford and may still lose in the end.

I still think the law sucks as it is writen and is done that way so MASS can say the law is the way they want it to be when they need it to read a certain way.

As I said I can not be the test subject so I will just not go to that cruise night.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It would than come down to a test case, say I was seen putting my gun into the safe before I entered the parking lot. That person calls the police and that LEO sees the law as a locked up gun is still carrying. I would then be in for a long drawn out battle that I can not afford and may still lose in the end.

One problem with this exact case (which HAS happened), it is it tends to get sorted out at a court level that does not have any useful precedental value, and with no consequences that provide any motivation for the arresting agency to correct its behavior when subsequently encountering the identical situation.

 

[DavidC77]

One problem with this exact case (which HAS happened), it is it tends to get sorted out at a court level that does not have any useful precedental value, and with no consequences that provide any motivation for the arresting agency to correct its behavior when subsequently encountering the identical situation.

I aggree, that's why I don't want to be the "Test Subject".......... I can't afford it, I don't want the police coming in and taking my guns away and many other reasons.

As I said, we need to get the right folks into office that will change these stupid laws and make MASS into a better state.

 

[kilroth]

What about places claming to be schools?

If I may ask, since there doesn't seem to be a real definition of what constitutes a school, how can I know for sure the correct course of action for some entities like:

• Day care and learning facilities
• Small office training centers (like New Horizon's learning centers, or a Phoenix Tech branch office)
• The tutor's office next to mine

 

[Len-2A Training]

If I may ask, since there doesn't seem to be a real definition of what constitutes a school, how can I know for sure the correct course of action for some entities like:

• Day care and learning facilities
• Small office training centers (like New Horizon's learning centers, or a Phoenix Tech branch office)
• The tutor's office next to mine

Start with reading MGL on this!

 

[TheSuit_WC]

I recently applied for my LTC-A in Ipswich, and am waiting for my permit to come back from CHSB. I currently attend a local community college and I have three hour breaks between classes sometimes. I would like to be able to go to the range during lunch, etc.

My question is, as a college student, if I store my firearms unloaded and secured in a locked case in my locked vehicle while I'm in class, am I in violation? There are multiple secluded enough areas between my house and school where I could legally stop and download before entering campus grounds. The way I seem to be reading this is as long as the firearms are secured and unloaded, locked up, out of sight of course, prior to wheels on ground on campus then I'm good to go?

 

[banned]

I recently applied for my LTC-A in Ipswich, and am waiting for my permit to come back from CHSB. I currently attend a local community college and I have three hour breaks between classes sometimes. I would like to be able to go to the range during lunch, etc.

My question is, as a college student, if I store my firearms unloaded and secured in a locked case in my locked vehicle while I'm in class, am I in violation? There are multiple secluded enough areas between my house and school where I could legally stop and download before entering campus grounds. The way I seem to be reading this is as long as the firearms are secured and unloaded, locked up, out of sight of course, prior to wheels on ground on campus then I'm good to go?

As a technical legal matter, you should be all set. However, as posted earlier in this thread, I have had clients charged under this statute who were not in violation. So beware, guns turn into Kryptonite when on school grounds.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

My question is, as a college student, if I store my firearms unloaded and secured in a locked case in my locked vehicle while I'm in class, am I in violation?

1. No, you are not in violation.

2. Campus police will not know this, and if they do know, will be choose to be "willfully ignorant", and will pretend you are in violation of MGL.

3. Expect to be expelled, and removed immediately, prior to any school internal or judicial external process as you will be considered a "danger to the campus community". Do not expect re-admission after proving to the court that you were not in violation, as it will still be considered a serious violation of school policy (in fact, it is considered even more serious that not respecting diversity).

4. All standard comments regarding suitability incorporated herein by reference.

Campus police will try to bend the rules and use the power of the badge to enforce school polices that are not, in fact, law. I've seen campus police officials quoted in the newspaper claiming an that guns in cars on campus a prohibited by law.

Your best bet as a matter of practicality is to determine if there is a safe and legal place to park not on school grounds.

With proper legal funding (that few students have), there are some interesting issues that could be raised regarding the degree to which campus police may use the power of the state (search warrants, etc.) to enforce policies that are institutional rules, but are not prohibited by statute.

 

[M1911]

If I may ask, since there doesn't seem to be a real definition of what constitutes a school, how can I know for sure the correct course of action for some entities like:

• Day care and learning facilities
• Small office training centers (like New Horizon's learning centers, or a Phoenix Tech branch office)
• The tutor's office next to mine

You know, I posted the law in this thread for a reason.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...ol-(In-MASS)?p=2374415&viewfull=1#post2374415

Specifically:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

A day care center is not an "elementary or secondary school, college or university."

A tutor's office is not an "elementary or secondary school, college or university."

"New Horizon's Learning Center" is not an "elementary or secondary school, college or university."

It should be self-evident whether or not University of Phoenix is "elementary or secondary school, college or university."

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A day care center is not an "elementary or secondary school, college or university."

Careful ... some are state certified to teach kindergarten.

 

[M1911]

Careful ... some are state certified to teach kindergarten.

Is kindergarten elementary school?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Is kindergarten elementary school?

I would not want to bet that the state would not argue that it is, and that a court would not agree.

My expectation is that the a MA court would take that position about as seriously as someone arguing "It was a Middle School, not an elementary school, secondary school or university".

Just look at how difficult it is to get the system to accept the clear meaning of "on his person" - and, unlike the "kindergarten" question, does not have any semantic ambiguity.

 

[Coyote33]

Is a church nursery school considered a school?

 

[Racenet]

Is a church nursery school considered a school?

No

 

[That Guy]

Here's a related question.

The MGL says school grounds, correct? So a "school event" like a high school football game that is played on city property but not school grounds is ok?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I don't think so. It is my understanding that when any facility is used for a "school event" it should be treated as if it were a school wrt ccw'g on said property.

This is possibly a gray area and I don't recall exactly when I was told this but think it might have been when I worked for a large college PD back in the 1980s. They frequently held one football game/season "off-site" at a rented location in the Greater Boston area and their college PD thus had jurisdiction for the duration of the game even though it was in a different town.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I agree with Len's interpretation in the first part. However on the second, I highly doubt that the campus PD at one college town would have jurisdiction for an away game someplace else. I defer to Len on this one however. I think he was a cop some years ago?

Thanks Jesse.

A very good friend recently retired as the Detective Lt & Prosecutor for that college PD. He told me that he was certified to fly armed and did so when they went to away games (no idea of legality of police powers outside MA, I'll assume none). So they definitely did cover the games held off-site in MA. They were sworn in as Special Mass State Police Officers, so they did indeed have police powers all over MA when working at/for the college. Yes, this is the same place that I worked part-time for 7 or 8 years. [Note: They went to the full police academy and had better in-house training than my own PD could ever dream of! Firearms training monthly, Simunitions, Range 2000, practice hostage drills in dorms during the Summer, etc. Money was and is no object . . . when I was there (long ago) the college raked in $50Million/year in TV rights for the football games alone.]

 

[KodiakFan24]

I didn't go through all 11 pages here, so forgive if it was asked and answered earlier. What do you think the odds of success would be petitioning the school board/police department/whomever to be allowed to carry so long as school was not in session/no sanctioned after school activities? I assume absolute zero, but the law clearly allows for it. I don't really see a downside - the town already knows I have a class a with no restrictions. Not being able to carry while using the school grounds on the weekends when it's just my family, or going to town little league held on high school property seems inconsistent with the spirit of the law (unless that spirit is to male carrying concealed as difficult as possible). Are there any instances of people actually asking the town they live in for this?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't really see a downside - the town already knows I have a class a with no restrictions

The downside is that the person granting permission knows that (s)he is betting his/her career on the person to whom permission is granted not engaging in an unlawful shoot. This fear alone will prevent anyone from even thinking of granting permission unless you are very powerful.

 

[Hush]

Concealed means never having to say your sorry.

 

[perry1386]

I didn't go through all 11 pages here, so forgive if it was asked and answered earlier. What do you think the odds of success would be petitioning the school board/police department/whomever to be allowed to carry so long as school was not in session/no sanctioned after school activities? I assume absolute zero, but the law clearly allows for it. I don't really see a downside - the town already knows I have a class a with no restrictions. Not being able to carry while using the school grounds on the weekends when it's just my family, or going to town little league held on high school property seems inconsistent with the spirit of the law (unless that spirit is to male carrying concealed as difficult as possible). Are there any instances of people actually asking the town they live in for this?

0% is my bet

 

[Len-2A Training]

The downside is that the person granting permission knows that (s)he is betting his/her career on the person to whom permission is granted not engaging in an unlawful shoot. This fear alone will prevent anyone from even thinking of granting permission unless you are very powerful.

I tried this with NU back in the late-1970s and even though I was very well known (alumni officer) and friendly with the college president and chief of campus police amongst others, I got the "hell no" response. Back then NU still had a range in the gym building and alumni had access to all gym facilities, still no dice.