When is a School a School (In MASS) ???

[Len-2A Training]

With due respect to Len, when there were previous discussions on this issue, he was not able to provide sufficient details to allow a full understanding of exactly what was meany by "successfully prosecuted". There are multiple possible outcomes possible that the campus PD could consider "successful prosecution" - for example, charges making it past a magistrate's hearing but dismissed by the court; charges dismissed with a plea bargain to some much more minor offense or even a CWOF. When the law is ambiguous, the chances of a face saving deal, that also avoids setting a precedent, increase. It is also possible there was an actual "conviction" - just not enough info to know.

Rob is right that I never requested enough detail to find out what occurred to cause the arrest or what the results in court were. My guess is that most were either plead out or CWOF, assuming no assault occurred during the incident leading to the arrest.

People just need to understand that anything on school property in MA is a risky business and don't expect the benefit of the doubt to come to your aid.

 

[DavidC77]

OC was prosecuted as "ammunition" on campus. The college in question here is Boston College.

Jesse Cohen already posted today that he just finished defending someone for having a gun (legally stored) on school property. Do a search and take that into consideration in any decision you make.

Len the only thing I could find was Jesse posted that he defended someone "carrying" on school grounds.

If it is stored and locked it's not carrying.

I'm going to PM Jese and ask him if he can weigh in on this.

 

[mx250man]

I'm sorry, but I don't have any useful advice specific to this instance. I do feel that it is unfortunate that instead of being the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave", we, even when we believe in the rights we seek to exercise, withdraw from our rights out of fear of those who abuse their power. I have seen this appears to be true even in some situations where established legal opinion is in our favor, but because we fear the costs we may incur due to a fraudulent prosecution, we withdraw. The rights we give up because we refuse to exercise them will truly be lost over time. For our rights I think it is "use it or loose it"!

 

[PATRON]

Why is it so important to bring a firearm to a car show. Now do not get me wrong,everyone should have the right to carry a firearm anywhere they want to but not going to the show because you cannot take your firearm . Maybe it is just me, a combo of old age and many years of having to carry a firearm,I do not see the need to carry it all the time and that is coming from someone that was in two shootouts and never fired a shot.

 

[DavidC77]

Why is it so important to bring a firearm to a car show. Now do not get me wrong,everyone should have the right to carry a firearm anywhere they want to but not going to the show because you cannot take your firearm . Maybe it is just me, a combo of old age and many years of having to carry a firearm,I do not see the need to carry it all the time and that is coming from someone that was in two shootouts and never fired a shot.

It's not that I need to carry to a cruise night, it's that I shouldn't need to disarm to go to a cruise night.

As you know the 1st rule to needing a gun when you need one is "you need to have it on you".

I chose to carry so I want to be able to.

I am a former LEO, I only had to draw my gun a few times, luckily I never had to fire it.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how you have been in two shoot outs and never fired a shoot???

 

[PATRON]

It's not that I need to carry to a cruise night, it's that I shouldn't need to disarm to go to a cruise night.

As you know the 1st rule to needing a gun when you need one is "you need to have it on you".

I chose to carry so I want to be able to.

I am a former LEO, I only had to draw my gun a few times, luckily I never had to fire it.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how you have been in two shoot outs and never fired a shoot???

Because,I went with rule no.1 getting the f^%k out of there.You see I was not a cop and I get in the middle of the shootout so first instict is save my ass.I drew my firearm and got the hell out of there.Both times it happened on columbia road Roxbury.

 

[Kevlar]

I'd be money that there is case law concerning the definition of "dangerous weapon." ... I would expect that the court's interpretation would be expansive.

Correct on both counts...

This court concluded that the phrase "dangerous weapon," as it is used in G. L.c. 269, § 10(j) (prohibiting the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon on the grounds of any school, college, or university), must be interpreted as incorporating the common-law definition of that phrase, i.e., those objects that are dangerous per se (designed for the purpose of bodily assault or defense) and those things that become dangerous weapons because they are used in a dangerous fashion.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/459/459mass745.html

 

[HTRN]

Correct on both counts...



http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/459/459mass745.html

Thanks for the info.

And wow, that is all encompassing.

I guess I'm not surprised.

 

[M1911]

I'm sorry, but I don't have any useful advice specific to this instance. I do feel that it is unfortunate that instead of being the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave", we, even when we believe in the rights we seek to exercise, withdraw from our rights out of fear of those who abuse their power. I have seen this appears to be true even in some situations where established legal opinion is in our favor, but because we fear the costs we may incur due to a fraudulent prosecution, we withdraw. The rights we give up because we refuse to exercise them will truly be lost over time. For our rights I think it is "use it or loose it"!

I can't see that an unloaded gun locked in my car would be of much use to me on school grounds. If I can get to my car to get the gun, I can get in and drive away.

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm sorry, but I don't have any useful advice specific to this instance. I do feel that it is unfortunate that instead of being the "land of the free" and the "home of the brave", we, even when we believe in the rights we seek to exercise, withdraw from our rights out of fear of those who abuse their power. I have seen this appears to be true even in some situations where established legal opinion is in our favor, but because we fear the costs we may incur due to a fraudulent prosecution, we withdraw. The rights we give up because we refuse to exercise them will truly be lost over time. For our rights I think it is "use it or loose it"!

You're conflating what should be, with what is.

The OP asked about the likelyhood of getting jammed up for following a specific, hypothetical course of action.

The answer given was ">0, so proceed accordingly", and the answer was based on knowledge of MGLs, and how they've been interpreted in the past.

Very few people are "free and brave" enough to risk their life, liberty and treasure to fight against a law that they see as intrinsically wrong, especially in a climate where the odds are stacked against them.

Change will come about, slowly. GOAL works on the political front; Comm2A on the Legal (litigatory); and we, as shooters, on the Ambassadorail, in that we need to get more people on our side of the issue.

When a majority of people hear the phrase, "It's for the children" and think it's a sincere, as opposed to ironic, statement, we have our work cut out for us.

 

[M1911]

You're conflating what should be, with what is.

The OP asked about the likelyhood of getting jammed up for following a specific, hypothetical course of action.

The answer given was ">0, so proceed accordingly", and the answer was based on knowledge of MGLs, and how they've been interpreted in the past.

+1

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If it is stored and locked it's not carrying.

Under the MA definition of "carry" as used in gun laws, any movement, even disassebled with a trigger lock on the gun in a locked case in a locked trunk is "carrying".

 

[banned]

DavidC77 pm'd me to weigh in on this issue so I'll take these one by one.

 

[banned]

I am familiar with cases in which the "on his person" qualifier has been totally ignored by the police and magistrates, thus forcing the gun owner to go to trial hoping the judge will follow the law, or cop a plea.

Just remember, if you admit you took your gun off and locked it in the trunk after parking on school property, you have admitted to a violation of this section. To maintain a credible defense, it must not be on you person for ANY amount of time while on school property.

+1 Boudrie as usual is on the money.

 

[banned]

.........was not able to provide sufficient details to allow a full understanding of exactly what was meant by "successfully prosecuted". There are multiple possible outcomes possible that the campus PD could consider "successful prosecution" - for example, charges making it past a magistrate's hearing but dismissed by the court; charges dismissed with a plea bargain to some much more minor offense or even a CWOF. When the law is ambiguous, the chances of a face saving deal, that also avoids setting a precedent, increase. It is also possible there was an actual "conviction" - just not enough info to know.

"This is true for the majority of the legal issues discussed on this forum". my note sorry didn't know how to break this up and wanted to be clear )

I am not familiar with any cases where a defendant properly raising the "not on his person and otherwise legal" defense was convicted, however, I am aware of at least one case in which possession, clearly not on the subject's person, was not dismissed at the probable cause magistrate's hearing, even with effective and competent counsel to point out the law.

+1

 

[jasons]

What if a school owns or rents one floor of a multi-story building and my workplace happens to be on another floor? Am I a felon if the elevator door opens up on floor 5 while on my way to the lobby?

 

[M1911]

What if a school owns or rents one floor of a multi-story building and my workplace happens to be on another floor? Am I a felon if the elevator door opens up on floor 5 while on my way to the lobby?

About 10 years ago I paid an attorney to research this for me. If I recall correctly, he told me that he could find no definition of a school in the MGL or in case law. So while his opinion was that it was not, there is no guarantee.

 

[banned]

I hear ya, I may still carry and just "lock up" before getting there, I haven't decided yet.

I hate this Commywealth of MASS.

I wish I could move, but we can't at this time.

I'm still going to ask a lawyer, or maybe one of the lawyers on NES can answer (come on you newly rejoined lawyer ), can you answer with your views.

Thanks again all that have answered............

Nothing I say on NES should be construed as legal advice. That having been said, based on my experience, if you carry or possess a firearm on or even close to school grounds, you should probably have a very accurate GPS with memory, a lawyer and land surveyor on retainer.

 

[drgrant]

What if a school owns or rents one floor of a multi-story building and my workplace happens to be on another floor? Am I a felon if the elevator door opens up on floor 5 while on my way to the lobby?

Just don't step out of the elevator.

This is a good question though.... if a school RENTS property that actually belongs to someone else, is it still a "school? "

-Mike

 

[TZCHRIS]

Boy, now that I think back, I am a criminal X 1000 !

Sunday School or even CCD.........I have been dropping the kids off there for years, couple years ago they opened up a Catholic School on the curch grounds. Same building I have been going to for CCD. Now I am not going to incriminate myself but I do CCW everyday.............

Is this now school grounds? Is the entire church property now a school? Oh well, I don't get too stressed out about the MA laws, my take on it is they are designed to confuse even the best of lawyers on purpose so they can be used in thier favor when they need to. If they want to get you for something they will. My hope is that they are using this to hold the 'bad guys' on whatever they can come up with while they look for the bodies.

But really, is the church now a school?

 

[jasons]

....my take on it is they are designed to confuse even the best of [STRIKE=lawyers]lawyers[/STRIKE] EVERYONE on purpose so they can be used in thier favor when they need to.

Whether intentional or not, that is the end result.

 

[M1911]

Boy, now that I think back, I am a criminal X 1000 !

Sunday School or even CCD.........I have been dropping the kids off there for years, couple years ago they opened up a Catholic School on the curch grounds. Same building I have been going to for CCD.

Is this now school grounds? Is the entire church property now a school?

But really, is the church now a school?

The law was posted on the first page of this thread.

It covers elementary schools, secondary schools, colleges and universities. Sunday school is not an elementary school, secondary school, college or university.

 

[TZCHRIS]

It covers elementary schools, secondary schools, colleges and universities. Sunday school is not an elementary school, secondary school, college or university.

This place is now a Catholic School with a church on the property, or a church with a school on the property. Either way does the law now see this entire property 'school property'?

 

[M1911]

This place is now a Catholic School with a church on the property, or a church with a school on the property. Either way does the law now see this entire property 'school property'?

What do you mean by Catholic School? A place that teaches religious "classes" on Sundays to children? Or an elementary or secondary school that is run by the Catholic Church? My uneducated guess would be no to the former and yes to the latter.

 

[TZCHRIS]

This is now an elementary school run by the church. Its not a 'public' school but anyone who is catholic with lots of $$$$$ can go there. It goes back to my question about the charter school, where does that fall in the eyes of the law?

 

[Kevlar]

This is now an elementary school run by the church. Its not a 'public' school but anyone who is catholic with lots of $$$$$ can go there. It goes back to my question about the charter school, where does that fall in the eyes of the law?

The statute does not differentiate between public and private institutions...

Whoever ... carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished ...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

 

[SilentOverlord]

Ok...so let me throw a wrench into this:

I came across this article regarding Transportation Assumption on the all knowing Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Assumption

It mentions, "This doctrine is generally given as an exception or affirmative defense to state or local laws that otherwise restrict or prohibit possession of a concealed weapon"

My questions:
1) Would it be a good argument that due to this doctorine the Peoples Republic cannot restrict the location of where you may be transporting a weapon so long as it is secured in the trunk or locked container as per state regs? Could you be "constantly transporting"?

2) I know it says, "The traveler assumption forces law enforcement officials to assume a gun found in a vehicle is being transported and therefore lawful, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary", so I'm guessing the definition of "compelling evidence" hasn't beed defined by case law, and is open to the interpitation of the one using the cuffs, and not the one being placed in cuffs?

-No....I will not be your test case.

 

[M1911]

The statute does not differentiate between public and private institutions...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

Yup. An elementary school, whether public or private, is covered by MGL 269 S10J.

Now is the church itself and all the area around also part of the school? The conservative assumption is that it is, but as I said, the statute itself doesn't define the term "school" or the limits of the school grounds.

 

[mx250man]

Very few people are "free and brave" enough to risk their life, liberty and treasure to fight against a law that they see as intrinsically wrong, especially in a climate where the odds are stacked against them.

That often leaves it to the ignorant and/or criminal to put a test to the laws that we feel are being inappropriately enforced. Probably not the best bet for establishing good case law. I guess the gun crowd isn't big on civil disobedience. If one were to do something on the edge of legality with a gun in order to draw attention to the inappropriate legal action taken, one would instead be vilified by ridiculous and inaccurate stories in the media. It is a frustrating situation. Thanks for the reply.

 

[M1911]

I guess the gun crowd isn't big on civil disobedience. If one were to do something on the edge of legality with a gun in order to draw attention to the inappropriate legal action taken, one would instead be vilified by ridiculous and inaccurate stories in the media. It is a frustrating situation.

You first. You're so raring to go, have at it. Oh, and btw, when you get arrested for carrying on school grounds to express your civil disobedience, expect your police chief to decide that you are unsuitable. He will then send an officer to confiscate all of your firearms and ammunition. But it will all be worth it, right?

In contrast, when those hippies who you seem to admire so much practice civil disobedience, they are usually careful to do nothing more than civil trespass or tie up traffic. So their arrests are typically minor misdemeanors with no real consequences.

But, you're right, the two are absolutely comparable.