When is a School a School (In MASS) ???

[DavidC77]

I am wondering

When is a School a School (In MASS) ???

When is a School not a School ???

Or is a School always a School ???

I CCW all the time, even when I'm out with my Hot Rod.

I'm wondering because one of the local Car Clubs uses a high school parking lot as the spot for their Cruise Nights.

Now when the cruise night happens it's from 5 or 6 PM till dark, there are no school events going on and there is no one from the school there.

I think I know the answer, that it is a school and I can't carry, but that would suck as it is only a parking lot and not a school at the time that they are useing it, but this being MASS I expect it to be looked at as a school.

I guess I have a few options:

1. Not to go to that cruise night as it is on school grounds.
2. Park in the street off of school grounds (gun in safe so I can walk the show), but then I wouldn't be "at the cruise night".
3. Lock my gun in my safe before I go onto the school grounds, which I think is still illeagl.
4. Lock my gun in my safe and if I get nabbed just play dumb and say that I thought I could do that (ya that would fly ).
5. Not to carry that night (that is not what I would do though).

I guess that if a school is a school all of the time I just won't go to that cruise night and wright them a letter asking them to find a "more friendly place" to hold the cruise night.

Thanks for the answer(s).

 

[Fixxah]

You still can't convince yourself otherwise. Hmmm.

 

[MisterHappy]

If you can honesttly say, "My house is not a house when nobody is home, " then you should be good to go.

The MGLs say, IIRC, "School Grounds", not "When kids are around". The general advice here is to park off school property and have little Timmy walk out to you, just to be on the safe side.

Take from it what you will - but IMO, it's not a good idea.

 

[M1911]

The high school parking lot is always school grounds.

 

[MAShooter]

MGL 269 s.10 (j)
(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

Now what the nice police officer says the meaning of 'carry' is might cost you a lot in legal expenses to find out.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Now what the nice police officer says the meaning of 'carry' is might cost you a lot in legal expenses to find out.

I am familiar with cases in which the "on his person" qualifier has been totally ignored by the police and magistrates, thus forcing the gun owner to go to trial hoping the judge will follow the law, or cop a plea.

I do not believe this is accidental, but a deliberate policy of mis-training police on this particular issue, explaining the law as the departments wish it was written, not as it is actually written.

Just remember, if you admit you took your gun off and locked it in the trunk after parking on school property, you have admitted to a violation of this section. To maintain a credible defense, it must not be on you person for ANY amount of time while on school property.

 

[DavidC77]

You still can't convince yourself otherwise. Hmmm.

Sorry but I do not understand that answer.......

 

[DavidC77]

Thanks folks, as I said in my OP I figured it would be a school all of the time.

This is one Cruise Night that I will not be going to unless they change where they hold it, which I dought they will.

 

[TZCHRIS]

My 2 cents, I think its BS!

My property boarders 'school grounds' so if I am raking leaves on a sunday afternoon and step too far to the right I could end up in jail...........
And when me and the kids go for a bike ride and cut through the corner lot on the way home...........

I dont understand some of the crazy laws we have. If you are a criminal with a gun you dont obey or care about the laws. I dont know about you, but on the top of my list on where I want law abiding citizens to be able to CCW is places where my children spend most of their time. Wouldn't our kids be safer if the teachers were trained and able to CCW?

Sorry about the rant but sometimes I wonder what people are thinking.

PS. Is a 'charter school' a school? What if you 'home school'?

 

[DavidC77]

Just remember, if you admit you took your gun off and locked it in the trunk after parking on school property, you have admitted to a violation of this section. To maintain a credible defense, it must not be on you person for ANY amount of time while on school property.

Ah I thought I couldn't even have a gun stored in my vehicle on school grounds.

Am I reading your post correctly???

If I stop before entering the school grounds and lock my gun in my safe, can I then drive onto the school grounds for the cruise night??? Then after leaving I would just stop and take my gun out of my safe and put my gun back into my holster.

Now my safes are the style that have the cables on them and I have them set up so I can put my gun in them before I exit the vehicle. So it would be easy for me to stop on the road, put the gun into it and then drive onto the school grounds.

 

[DavidC77]

My 2 cents, I think its BS!

My property boarders 'school grounds' so if I am raking leaves on a sunday afternoon and step too far to the right I could end up in jail...........
And when me and the kids go for a bike ride and cut through the corner lot on the way home...........

I dont understand some of the crazy laws we have. If you are a criminal with a gun you dont obey or care about the laws. I dont know about you, but on the top of my list on where I want law abiding citizens to be able to CCW is places where my children spend most of their time. Wouldn't our kids be safer if the teachers were trained and able to CCW?

Sorry about the rant but sometimes I wonder what people are thinking.

PS. Is a 'charter school' a school? What if you 'home school'?

I totally agree with you, I think it is a stupid law.

 

[M1911]

Ah I thought I couldn't even have a gun stored in my vehicle on school grounds.

Am I reading your post correctly???

If I stop before entering the school grounds and lock my gun in my safe, can I then drive onto the school grounds for the cruise night??? Then after leaving I would just stop and take my gun out of my safe and put my gun back into my holster.

Yes, that would meet the letter of the law as I understand it, as the law is concerned with carrying on your person. That said, as Rob pointed out, if you are discovered you may well get arrested and charged even if you are following the letter of the law.

The law in question is MGL Chapter 269 Section 10j:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

Full text is here: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10

 

[DavidC77]

Yes, that would meet the letter of the law as I understand it, as the law is concerned with carrying on your person. That said, as Rob pointed out, if you are discovered you may well get arrested and charged even if you are following the letter of the law.
l]

Ok, good, as long as I stop before I go onto the school grounds, (which I can at this CN), lock up my gun, I can then go to the CN, then after I leave I can get my gun back out and be OK.

Thanks.........


(see following posts that change this)

 

[M1911]

Ok, good, as long as I stop before I go onto the school grounds, (which I can at this CN), lock up my gun, I can then go to the CN, then after I leave I can get my gun back out and be OK.

And not be seen doing so. Don't underestimate the risk you are taking.

 

[DavidC77]

And not be seen doing so. Don't underestimate the risk you are taking.

Yes I understand.

I can stop way before this school and as I said I can get to my safe with no one seeing me (unless they are in my vehicle or standing right next to it, which they wouldn't be).

 

[DavidC77]

Thanks again everyone.

This sight is still great and still has some great people that are helpful .............

 

[PATRON]

I have one question, if they took your guns away would you stay at home and never go out?You are talking about MA, I would not carry a gun or have one in my car, on school grounds anytime of the day.I would carry my PPK if I was going to a car show in my Aston Martin DB5 and wearing my Tux.

 

[DavidC77]

I have one question, if they took your guns away would you stay at home and never go out?You are talking about MA, I would not carry a gun or have one in my car, on school grounds anytime of the day.I would carry my PPK if I was going to a car show in my Aston Martin DB5 and wearing my Tux.

I agree, if it was illeagal to store a unloaded gun in your vehicle I wouldn't do it either.

By the way the law looks, it looks like it is legal to have a unloaded, stored, locked gun in your vehicle.

Someone here that knows the law, is that correct ???

By the answers I just got from M1911 and Rob Boudrie, it sounds like they know the law and say that it is OK. Yes I also will check with a firearms lawyer when I get a chance........... (see following posts, were it is cleared up)

I carry two safes, one for the gun, one for my magazine. Yes I understand I don't have to do that, but I feel safer doing it that way (in case I get searched for any reason).

Yes I understand this is MASS and anything can happen here, but if I store my gun correctly and before I'm on school grounds I would say I'm legal. No one is going to see my safes, if they do, they are locked and not removeable from the vehicle.

 

[M1911]

By the answers I just got from M1911 and Rob Boudrie, it sounds like they know the law and say that it is OK. Yes I also will check with a firearms lawyer when I get a chance...........

Hold on there, partner. I am not a lawyer, I don't think Rob is either, and we didn't give you legal advice. Nor did we say it was OK. Rob and I said it is accordance with the law as we understand it, HOWEVER Rob knows of instances where someone was in accordance with the law, but was arrested anyways, and the judge ALSO ignore the law.

You would be running a risk of getting legally jammed up really, really badly. Personally, I would not do it. YMMV.

Yes I understand this is MASS and anything can happen here, but if I store my gun correctly and before I'm on school grounds I would say I'm legal. No one is going to see my safes, if they do, they are locked and not removeable from the vehicle.

The guys that Rob knows of who got jammed up were also following the law and had their guns locked up, and I'm sure they also thought that no one was going to see the gun. But someone did (I'd bet while they were off campus and putting the gun in their locked container) and then everything went down the crapper.

 

[HTRN]

To expand on the law as quoted by M1911, is "dangerous weapon" as used in that text, legally defined?

Also, what are the police trained on? That any firearm on school property is a violation? Or are these arrests more of an ignorance thing vs innappropriate training.
Thanks.

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

 

[M1911]

To expand on the law as quoted by M1911, is "dangerous weapon" as used in that text, legally defined?

Not that I'm aware of -- I could not find a definition in that Section, nor could I find a definition Section in that Chapter. That said, I'm not a lawyer, so I may well be missing something. I'd be money that there is case law concerning the definition of "dangerous weapon." If I recall correctly, Len S knows of college students being successfully prosecuted for having OC spray -- the OC spray being considered a "dangerous weapon." So I would expect that the court's interpretation would be expansive.

 

[DavidC77]

Hold on there, partner. I am not a lawyer, I don't think Rob is either, and we didn't give you legal advice. Nor did we say it was OK. Rob and I said it is accordance with the law as we understand it, HOWEVER Rob knows of instances where someone was in accordance with the law, but was arrested anyways, and the judge ALSO ignore the law.

You would be running a risk of getting legally jammed up really, really badly. Personally, I would not do it. YMMV.




The guys that Rob knows of who got jammed up were also following the law and had their guns locked up, and I'm sure they also thought that no one was going to see the gun. But someone did (I'd bet while they were off campus and putting the gun in their locked container) and then everything went down the crapper.

To expand on the law as quoted by M1911, is "dangerous weapon" as used in that text, legally defined?

Also, what are the police trained on? That any firearm on school property is a violation? Or are these arrests more of an ignorance thing vs innappropriate training.
Thanks.

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

AH OK M1911, I misunderstood you.

I guess like I posted before I just won't go to this Cruise Night unless they change their location.

I don't want to be the "Test Subject" for MASS Law either .

 

[HTRN]

Not that I'm aware of -- I could not find a definition in that Section, nor could I find a definition Section in that Chapter. That said, I'm not a lawyer, so I may well be missing something. I'd be money that there is case law concerning the definition of "dangerous weapon." If I recall correctly, Len S knows of college students being successfully prosecuted for having OC spray -- the OC spray being considered a "dangerous weapon." So I would expect that the court's interpretation would be expansive.

Thank you.

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

 

[HTRN]

AH OK M1911, I misunderstood you.

I guess like I posted before I just won't go to this Cruise Night unless they change their location.

I don't want to be the "Test Subject" for MASS Law either .

Personally, I would.

I would lock it up when on school grounds, but then again im having a sucky travel day and feel oppositional. My wife would likely support me if arrested.

You need to do what you feel most comfortable with. But I hate to see folks do things so overly restrictive just because we live in a world where we fear the state.

In a free world, you would not be compromising the rights of others, and there could not possibly be a problem. But we don't live in a free world, do we?

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

 

[DavidC77]

Personally, I would.

I would lock it up when on school grounds, but then again im having a sucky travel day and feel oppositional. My wife would likely support me if arrested.

You need to do what you feel most comfortable with. But I hate to see folks do things so overly restrictive just because we live in a world where we fear the state.

In a free world, you would not be compromising the rights of others, and there could not possibly be a problem. But we don't live in a free world, do we?

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

I hear ya, I may still carry and just "lock up" before getting there, I haven't decided yet.

I hate this Commywealth of MASS.

I wish I could move, but we can't at this time.

I'm still going to ask a lawyer, or maybe one of the lawyers on NES can answer (come on you newly rejoined lawyer ), can you answer with your views.

Thanks again all that have answered............

 

[perry1386]

...or just don't bring it with you at all...

 

[M1911]

AH OK M1911, I misunderstood you.

I guess like I posted before I just won't go to this Cruise Night unless they change their location.

I don't want to be the "Test Subject" for MASS Law either .

If I understand Rob correctly, there have already been test cases where the LTC holder was wrongly arrested, wrongly charged, and wrongly convicted.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OC was prosecuted as "ammunition" on campus. The college in question here is Boston College.

Jesse Cohen already posted today that he just finished defending someone for having a gun (legally stored) on school property. Do a search and take that into consideration in any decision you make.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If I recall correctly, Len S knows of college students being successfully prosecuted for having OC spray -- the OC spray being considered a "dangerous weapon." So I would expect that the court's interpretation would be expansive.

With due respect to Len, when there were previous discussions on this issue, he was not able to provide sufficient details to allow a full understanding of exactly what was meany by "successfully prosecuted". There are multiple possible outcomes possible that the campus PD could consider "successful prosecution" - for example, charges making it past a magistrate's hearing but dismissed by the court; charges dismissed with a plea bargain to some much more minor offense or even a CWOF. When the law is ambiguous, the chances of a face saving deal, that also avoids setting a precedent, increase. It is also possible there was an actual "conviction" - just not enough info to know.

If I understand Rob correctly, there have already been test cases where the LTC holder was wrongly arrested, wrongly charged, and wrongly convicted.

I am not familiar with any cases where a defendant properly raising the "not on his person and otherwise legal" defense was convicted, however, I am aware of at least one case in which possession, clearly not on the subject's person, was not dismissed at the probable cause magistrate's hearing, even with effective and competent counsel to point out the law.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Am I reading your post correctly???

Yes, but

(a) I am not an attorney, and my comments are NOT legal advice in any way, shape or form.

(b) The police will more often than not either deliberately, or "conveniently", lack cognizance as to the import of this particular qualifier in 269-10j

Proceed at your own risk.