the new Sigmas are supposedly a lot better including a crisper trigger. I find it funny they have to pay Glock $10 every one they sell.
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What is up with Smith & Wesson?
- Thread starter johniac7078
- Start date
the new Sigmas are supposedly a lot better including a crisper trigger. I find it funny they have to pay Glock $10 every one they sell.
Do it. You won't be disappointed. And Ruger's CS is top notch.
boilermaker
NES Member
I have no idea how many parts/skus S&W has to look after but it is almost impossible to keep all in stock at all times. You model demand for inventory control and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Big seller overseas I believe. I seem to recall the Iraqi security forces were issued them and maybe the parts of the Afghan police. Not all sales occur just here in the States.
[sad2] but i already have the grips and sights for the 686. they dont make the grips i like for the ruger!
I will say that before the shit hit the fan, I had nothing but great service from S&W. I know the customer service from multiple manufactures has suffered since the last gun boom. With that said, I think it's been long enough where companies should be back on their feet with good ol' CS.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Yeah, M&Ps are awesome firearms (the MA compliant models)
/troll
I'll tell ya what, I am amazed with how many people have praised the M&P. The only one I have is the shield (and I do like it)..... I never thought the full size models were spectacular from the get go.
Giving you a spare screw doesn't give them as much as selling a new gun...
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I bet they have a stash of screws for warranty (or paid factory service) stuff, but they won't sell those to you.... it's all about the..Because they sell like hotcakes. There are a large number of people that want a cheap, mostly reliable gun. There are worse choices you could make, at least the new smegmas will accept Apex kits.
Yes, the gun is still a piece of shit but it looks like a trophy compared to a BG380. I think part of the reason they came out with that new laser-less one is because they know the old one with all the MIM barrel and shit in it is effectively damaging their reputation to a degree they are (finally) not willing to accept. The original BG380 is ****ing atrocious. Then again S&W does not exactly have a hot track record with .380s. From the original pot metal smegma .380, to their often wonky rendition of the PPK... and the BG380.
-Mike
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Yeah, M&Ps are awesome firearms (the MA compliant models)
/troll
Yeah, but the Free state guns are great. I loved mine, and kick myself in the ass every time I think about how I sold it. I acquired an XDM 9mm, and while it's a fine pistol, I am not at good with it as I was with my M&P......guess I'll have to practice more
![[mg]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/036.gif "Machine Gun [mg]")
Yeah, but the Free state guns are great. I loved mine, and kick myself in the ass every time I think about how I sold it. I acquired an XDM 9mm, and while it's a fine pistol, I am not at good with it as I was with my M&P......guess I'll have to practice more
XDm are much better IMHO. Even the free state MP triggers are squishy as hell. I just don't like the operations of the gun. If you really want an almost perfect striker fired 9mm, the FNS is awesome. Although the reset on my SR9c is better. I honestly wish I liked the M&Ps more.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!
We have a winner.
Seriously, not everyone wants a gold-plated 9mm... they're looking for something to keep on their bedside table or something to keep that abusive ex at bay. They're not thinking "Ooo, I need a 2.5 lb trigger and XS sights so I can go throw lead down range at the next IDPA shoot", they're thinking "So & so said he was gonna kill me and I believe him".
Fixed that for you.
johniac7078
NES Member
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BIOT??? Aren't you home yet?
In the springer's defense, most of the shooting I've done with it is while working up some handloads, most of which have not been terribly accurate. The last 2 mags I ran through it was a load that it seems to like, and I'm shooting it a lot better. The M&P just felt great in my hand, and pointed very well. As far as my SR9C, Sinead O'connor said it best.....Nothing compares, love that gun, just think the full size version is ugly and unbalanced.
I've been reading some pretty interesting things with regard to this thread, and I'll exit from from Statist-Jackass exile briefly with a few observations:
1. S&W was very consumer oriented after they made their deal with the devil in the 90's and worked hard to get consumers back.
2. S&W lost most of their institutional sales to Glock and had to focus more on the civilian market until the M&P series came along.
3. S&W is now enjoying a resurgence of institutional sales, so consumers take a second seat despite the new revolver products introduced in 2014. These are niche market items for the most part.
4. Witness the closing of the Shooting Center, no more civilian classes at the S&W Academy and no more factory tours. Oh, sure they have good reasons for not doing these anymore, but the underlying fact is that they do not care if they ruffle your feathers, cuz they got contracts, baby, contracts.
5. The new "just in time" manufacturing theory practice by industry today also knows as "lean manufacturing" means that there fewer parts in the inventory. They don't have big stockpiles of parts like in the past and only keep enough for manufacturing and production on hand with few spares.
6. Everytime in S&W History that they become flush, quality control and customer service take a back seat. I saw it in the 60's and 70's and they were running 24/7 to meet the demands of the Viet Nam War and police contracts world-wide.
7. It was Colt not S&W who had to for wait for patent expirations, because S&W held the patents for cartridge firearms. Colt had to wait and introduced its first center fire cartridge firearm in 1873, the famous SAA. Of course they did make some cartridge conversation revolvers prior to that.
8. S&W was on very shaking financial ground in 1940, the effects of the Depression and the failure of their British Contract Light Rifle Program put them on the edge. They fulfilled the British Contract by supplying M&P Revolvers and the company was saved. Most other companies were not in great shape in 1940 either, as previously stated, the Depression and the availability of cheap firearms from WWI seriously affected all gun companies in the 1930's.
9. S&W has waxed and waned over the years. The bottom line of any company is profit and if tomorrow making widgets were more profitable than guns, they would make widgets. In the past they made razor blades and plumbing fixtures, bicycles and leather goods, as well as a whole bunch of police accessories.
10. The Sigma and the now HD Series are very serviceable guns. In my limited experience the people that hate them most have never fired or owned one. Owners that I have talked to, tend to satisfied with these pistols, and yes there have been reengineering over the years, the first Sigmas were designed so closely around the Glock, that S&W had to pay Glock a royalty on every pistol sold, this brought about a design change.
My two euros...
1. S&W was very consumer oriented after they made their deal with the devil in the 90's and worked hard to get consumers back.
2. S&W lost most of their institutional sales to Glock and had to focus more on the civilian market until the M&P series came along.
3. S&W is now enjoying a resurgence of institutional sales, so consumers take a second seat despite the new revolver products introduced in 2014. These are niche market items for the most part.
4. Witness the closing of the Shooting Center, no more civilian classes at the S&W Academy and no more factory tours. Oh, sure they have good reasons for not doing these anymore, but the underlying fact is that they do not care if they ruffle your feathers, cuz they got contracts, baby, contracts.
5. The new "just in time" manufacturing theory practice by industry today also knows as "lean manufacturing" means that there fewer parts in the inventory. They don't have big stockpiles of parts like in the past and only keep enough for manufacturing and production on hand with few spares.
6. Everytime in S&W History that they become flush, quality control and customer service take a back seat. I saw it in the 60's and 70's and they were running 24/7 to meet the demands of the Viet Nam War and police contracts world-wide.
7. It was Colt not S&W who had to for wait for patent expirations, because S&W held the patents for cartridge firearms. Colt had to wait and introduced its first center fire cartridge firearm in 1873, the famous SAA. Of course they did make some cartridge conversation revolvers prior to that.
8. S&W was on very shaking financial ground in 1940, the effects of the Depression and the failure of their British Contract Light Rifle Program put them on the edge. They fulfilled the British Contract by supplying M&P Revolvers and the company was saved. Most other companies were not in great shape in 1940 either, as previously stated, the Depression and the availability of cheap firearms from WWI seriously affected all gun companies in the 1930's.
9. S&W has waxed and waned over the years. The bottom line of any company is profit and if tomorrow making widgets were more profitable than guns, they would make widgets. In the past they made razor blades and plumbing fixtures, bicycles and leather goods, as well as a whole bunch of police accessories.
10. The Sigma and the now HD Series are very serviceable guns. In my limited experience the people that hate them most have never fired or owned one. Owners that I have talked to, tend to satisfied with these pistols, and yes there have been reengineering over the years, the first Sigmas were designed so closely around the Glock, that S&W had to pay Glock a royalty on every pistol sold, this brought about a design change.
My two euros...
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![[cheers]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/018.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
Stay a while, why don't ya?
This is what happens with nearly every manufactured product; it's the ebb and flow of the free market at work. The workmanship and customer service gets crappy enough to piss off a bunch of customers, they buy other stuff, then the company gets it's shit together, rights the ship, and puts out quality product again. It happens a lot, not just in the world of firearms either.
TY43215
NES Member
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
The patent for the bored through cylinder; S&W bought it from a gunsmith named White, didn't they?
Hmm... yes, they did... and it looks like a nasty business all around. Wow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollin_White
I have not fired one, but I have coon-fingered one when we passed one around in a sales meeting. I dislike them because I think the trigger (at least, the one on the sample, which was NOT a MA gun) was horrible. That said, I know how well they sell, so SOMEONE must like them!
Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson were smart when they bought the Rolin White patent, because the agreement with was that it was the responsibility of White to defend patent infringements in court and he lost out because of the legal fees. Just business...and a contract was a contract...right?
Ross, I think it is generally agreed that the Sigma's have crappy triggers, but then again look at the fact that S&W sells M&Ps by the bucketful here in Mass with M******* triggers, and lots of people buy 'em without ever getting an Apex kit or a trigger job. Personally I have never been that impressed with H&K triggers, but they are considered be a an "uber pistolen" by many. Go figure...
![[devil2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/017.gif "Devil2 [devil2]")
![[pot]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/037.gif "Stir the pot [pot]")
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Hell, look at the fact that Remington is still producing Thunderbolt .22LR and the 597 to shoot it in (for as long as they can keep their extractors in the guns, anyway)... two of the biggest pieces of crap out there.
I have three S&W firearms, two M&Ps and my beloved S&W Model 28 wheel gun. I am positive I will purchase another S&W or three in my life.
Garys
NES Member
No no. Those things are no good. I'll take them off your hands to save you the trouble of wasting ammunition shooting them. I'm medical, you can trust me.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Garys
NES Member
When I was last there in 2012, they were making forgings for H-D and some other company that wasn't named. I'd guess they still do if they have excess production capacity. They might stamp out a years worth of 1911 frames on those mo hunker forges all at one time and then move on to make transmission casings or something for H-D. Then something else.
I think they also sub out a lot of small parts to other companies and if they don't keep a lot of stock on hand, it would explain delays and back orders.
Have you ever worked in manufacturing?
