What if this happened to you?

[LoginName]

So, I'm reading (with great disgust), the manner in which some CLEOs exercise their authority to either deny or make it as difficult as possible for someone to renew their curent LTC or obtain their 1st LTC.

With that in mind, how would one handle the following scenario...

Joe Sixpack has had a Class A LTC for a number of years... never had any legal problems or negative encounters with the PD that resulted in arrest or charges being filed in all that time.

For the sake of the scenario, lets say the cops paid him a visit for minor complaints a couple of times (noise, neighbor dispute, etc).

Joe either moves to a new community with a less than gun friendly CLEO, or since Joe 1st obtained his LTC, a new CLEO has replaced the previous chief in his community.

During that time, Joe has accumulated a number of...

A) Large Capacity rifles and magazines..

B) Large Capacity handguns and magazines.

C) Non-large capacity handguns.

He goes to renew (or reapply), his Class A LTC.

He is told that he will not be issued any LTC, or that he can only get a Class B LTC.

Since he cannot legally posses certain firearms and mags without the proper license, what are his options?

Obviously he'll have to do something with his guns; Sell them... place them in storage with an FFL... move them out of state... sign them over to a friend or relative that is properly licensed... move (and I mean real quick).

What if he's simply downgraded from a Class A to Class B LTC?

Is Joe basically screwed here? Is their any legal avenue of appeal open to him such as the Firearm Licensing Review Board (assuming Joes case is even eligible for review).

FWIW, I notice that by the boards own language, there's no obligation or guarantee that the CLEO must abide by the boards decision.

Hell, if some of them even ignore or play out a judges order, there's no reason to expect them to obey the boards decision.

"Please note that if your petition is successful, and the FLRB determines that you are a suitable candidate for a LTC or FID card relative to the misdemeanor conviction, you must still apply to your local police chief for the LTC or FID card, and the final determination on issuing is made by the licensing authority".

 

[Scrivener]

Not paying any attention

Is Joe basically screwed here? Is their any legal avenue of appeal open to him such as the Firearm Licensing Review Board (assuming Joes case is even eligible for review).

As anyone who's paid ANY attention to the issue of licensing appeals, including stickies and discussions on this forum well knows, DENIALS are appealed to the district court. The FLRB has NOTHING to do with it. A minute's research would have brought this up here or on the GOAL website, had you looked.

That research would have also brought up information on the parameters of the FLRB, which you actually cited:

"Please note that if your petition is successful, and the FLRB determines that you are a suitable candidate for a LTC or FID card relative to the misdemeanor conviction, you must still apply to your local police chief for the LTC or FID card, and the final determination on issuing is made by the licensing authority".

So how is it you could find the FLRB's info, yet IGNORE what YOU quoted about a "misdemeanor conviction" being the basis for review?

In short, you are taking apples and oranges to produce V-8......

 

[LoginName]

As anyone who's paid ANY attention to the issue of licensing appeals, including stickies and discussions on this forum well knows, DENIALS are appealed to the district court. The FLRB has NOTHING to do with it. A minute's research would have brought this up here or on the GOAL website, had you looked.

That research would have also brought up information on the parameters of the FLRB, which you actually cited:



So how is it you could find the FLRB's info, yet IGNORE what YOU quoted about a "misdemeanor conviction" being the basis for review?

In short, you are taking apples and oranges to produce V-8......

Which is why I posted (assuming Joes case is even eligible for review).

I was 99% certain that the applicant had to meet the guidelines as you stated, but given the oftentimes convoluted and complexity of MA gun laws, rules, regulations and case law, I just wanted to be certain there wasn't something I overlooked or missed.

But, back to our regularly scheduled program...

Given the previously posted scenario, is Joe SOL?

I realize he can implement some sort of appeal process but, I assume it's going to be a long drawn-out, time consuming and expensive battle with no guarantee of compliance by the CLEO even if Joe does succeed in winning.

Part two of this drama (with regards to the FLRB)...

If the applicant is appealing to the board regarding his misdemeanor conviction, is that person in the same SOL situation as Joe?

That is... can the CLEO pretty much tell the FLRB to go pound sand?

 

[Scrivener]

Here's a fairly simple breakdown:

LTCs exist at the whim of the chief; FIDs are "shall issue."

IF a chief refuses to issue an FID, the denial must based on a statutory disqualifier. IF so, he's covered and the applicant is toast, unless and until said disqualifier is removed.

If the chief has no such basis, HE'S toast - if the applicant has the bread and balls to appeal.

If the chief refuses to renew/issue an LTC, it will be due to either a statutory disqualifier or the chief declaring the applicant "unsuitable." If the former, see above. If the latter, the applicant will have to convince a district court judge of a negative; i.e., that he is NOT "not suitable."

The FLRB does NOT hear appeals of denials. Period.

The FLRB exists to remove certain statutory disqualifications so that applicants will be LEGALLY eligible to be licensed. Whether the chief issues actually issues the LTC is a different question.

Such a denial would be suitability, not a statutory bar. As such, the denial would be appealable.

As has been covered before...............

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The denial of an LTC-A, particularly when someone already has one with no incidents, is the kind of an appeal any decent lawyer who is committed to the case has a good chance of winning. Even Boston and Brookline have issued a bunch of LTC-A/restricted to people who are not related to royalty or otherwise "special". Far more difficult is the lifetime holder of an LTC-A/ALP being given a restricted license instead of ALP (note: Thanks to GOAL, the licenses are now restricted, rather than bearing a "reason for issuance" nomenclature). The standard of proof for that is pretty high and, if you read the statutes, it would appear that your lawyer must convince the judge that the chief imposed a restriction that he did not deem appropriate at the time of issuance.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I read the OP somewhat differently. The OP painted a few scenarios, I'll pick the one everyone has ignored.

What I read that is pertinent is the following:

- Person has LTC-A, buys all sorts of high-cap handguns over the years,

- On renewal a chief issues ONLY LTC-B to person. Person still possesses high-cap handguns, now illegally.

Recourse:

- Sell/move/dispose of high-cap handguns.

Regarding appeals:

- The Licensing Review Board does NOT hear this sort of case.

- Courts will DISMISS this sort of case. Judge will look and see that A LTC was issued and state that his jurisdiction is to determine if a LTC should be issued, NOT the CLASS of LTC.

End result:

- Person was NOT DENIED, therefore is screwed!

[Other points in scenario were already covered by Scrivener and Rob.]

 

[Rob Boudrie]

- Person was NOT DENIED, therefore is screwed!

This is a perfect example of why having a lawyer can help an appeal case. An attorney will know how to present the case as "appealing a denial", and will properly address the issue that non-issuance of an LTC-A is, in fact, a denial.

It it was clearly a non-denial, I suspect Brookline and Boston would have figured out that trick long ago

A pro-se defendant might find himself muttering "let me explain" after hearing the words "dismissed, next case please".

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've been told by at least one attorney that if they issue an LTC-B and you attempt to appeal, the judge WILL dismiss the case, "since you were issued a LTC".

That is what I'm basing my comments on, not just my personal opinion.

Regardless, it's wiser to spend a few hundred upfront rather than $1K or more trying to appeal a bad decision afterwards!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Len - I hope you are wrong, but I fear you are right.

 

[drgrant]

IMO "joe" should talk to a very good lawyer, and if the lawyer tells him
he's basically screwed.

If I went to the PD (well ahead of expiration) and they told me "We only issue
LTC-B's" Here is what I would do-

-Not fill out any paperwork (yet) until I talk to lawyer(s).

-If the lawyers tell me I'm screwed, I'd either-

-A. relocate in MA to a known A/ALP town. If you went to renew in
crap town far ernough ahead of time, you should still have enough time to
move + renew w/grace period, etc.

-B. do the smart thing and get the hell out of this state.

B is almost always the best option but most of us are ball and chained here
because of a house, commuting distance, family,etc.....

This kind of situation genuinely sucks. Even some of the asshat towns
will at least issue "Restricted A" to people who have high capacity guns
instead of screwing them over totally with the near-worthless LTC-B.

-Mike