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What % actually know?

Broc said:
It is super easy, just sit at 1,300 yards, only worry about minimal 3" vertical adjustment and you are good to go. The BC of 2.2^3 cuts through the wind like nothing.

It is important you are not fat, you are smart, you are a coffee connoisseur and like a good craft beer. Being an engineer, doctor or software developer helps but a man bun or being hot (9.5 minimum) is an acceptable substitution.
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Don't forget a quality beard oil that comes in a stylish metal tin
 
I shoot my handgun every other day. Sometimes I only shoot 5 rounds then walk around and bullshit for a few hours. Sometimes I will bring a .22 rifle with me and goof off all afternoon. Being retired, if I don’t go shooting or hiking I’d sit inside all day and watch Judge Judy. I live very close to the Connecticut river and I do a bit of fishing in the summer.

​

 
Broc said:
It is super easy, just sit at 1,300 yards, only worry about minimal 3" vertical adjustment and you are good to go. The BC of 2.2^3 cuts through the wind like nothing.

It is important you are not fat, you are smart, you are a coffee connoisseur and like a good craft beer. Being an engineer, doctor or software developer helps but a man bun or being hot (9.5 minimum) is an acceptable substitution.
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I'm screwed. Except for the beer. I'm an exceptional consumer of all VT craft beers.
 
My dad has a 10/22 and every decade, when he takes it to shoot it, it takes him about 10 minutes to remember how to make it fire [laugh] I cannot convince him to join the gun club and practice.
 
weekendracer said:
I've always said boot camp is brainwashing 18 year old kids to the point they 'can' kill. And I've read that 5% number from multiple sources.

What I saw in training people is that the first day we shot at 'human' targets, almost everyone pauses when the targets turn. You can see the target, you clearly see a weapon, the sudden knowledge you are shooting even at a simulated human, a lot of people never get a shot off on the first facing. It's just not wired into your system to hurt another human, even if they are the 'bad buy'. Go back to what I said in the 'servin and protectin' thread about enough force soon enough with this in mind. You didn't do what you needed to do in the moment, now you're behind the curve, the 'over doing it' starts to make sense 'sometimes'.

For the record, as a new instructor shooting the course, we weren't told about the human targets and a lot of us Red Shirts had the same reaction. After days of hammering plain targets, it was jarring to see if you weren't ready for it. The cadre hid as much information as they could for us first timers, especially us old timers who hadn't been through the new program.
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Hunting helps. Not perfect but you’ve made the step to taking a living thing. Especially as the prey gets bigger.

I’m not equating hunting with killing humans, just helps with understanding the power of weapons on living things. My first shots on deer were more timid than my shots now.

Still not an operator though. No beard, no tats.
 
Sammy said:
Your ability to "utilize" the gun will be tested when there is a human being in the path of the barrel of the gun you hold. 95% of humans will be incapable of pulling the trigger. It's not in our nature to want to destroy another human being.
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That's quite obivously not true, Humans have been killing each other, some rather "easily", for thousands of years. Maybe not "enjoying" it but without much resistance to it. If that wasnt the case there would be heavy voting against war.

We like to pretend that we are capable of taking another person's life but most of us can't. Hollywood loves to make it look that killing is easy. How many Rambo movies have been released int he past 40 years? 10? Fact is, all historical research shows that less than 5% of all soldiers in combat actually fire their weapons and of only a fraction of that 5% actually aims to kill.
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lol I knew there were Ayoob glue sniffers but Grossman glue sniffers, oh geez... [rofl] Some of the stuff he says makes sense but a lot of it is drama queen bullshit based on
ancient data and biased sample sets of people. You recruit 100,000 soldiers lets say from conscription basically (this is more or less what the draft was, back a long time ago) and you're shocked that 95% of them don't want to shoot anyone? Of course they don't want to f***ing shoot anyone, they don't want to be there to begin with. [rofl] Of coure they're resistant, they've never mentallly entertained the thought of what it would be like to actually have to employ violence.

Also I take a lot of umbrage with his conclusions.... wtf is "aims to kill?" what does that even mean? The main objective is to stop the other guy from killing you.
Human history contradicts grossman's bloviation pretty broadly.... Yeah these people had a lot of trouble with killing other people. [rofl] Hell they didn't even need guns to do it, either.

en.wikipedia.org

Rwandan genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

And yes I get it, you're going to go "dats africa and those people barely know how to make a fire by rubbing two sticks together". Well, in this country not all that long ago there were people in Salem who crushed other people with cement slabs because they thought they were witches. [rofl]

Understimating the level of depravity a given group of humans will default to if they feel threatened by "something" is silly.

Shit, even in some old LE shootings where someone attacked an officer it's not usually because the officer hesitated, its because they didn't get the drop on the bad guy...
 
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My goal with each weapon I acquire is to get proficient in shooting it and performing basic maintenance. Can I shoot acceptable groups at typical ranges? Can I field strip it, clean it, and put it back together? AR platforms are simple as basic training in-grained that and I don't have to think about it, even after being out of the Army 21 years. My Tavor and CZ Scorpion usually require a quick RTFM to make sure I have the disassembly/re-assembly down. SL8/G36 is easy as pie. Glocks are simple, though I still don't like pulling the trigger to disassemble. SIG and HK handguns are also pretty straightforward. Still haven't worked with the TRR8 enough to be comfortable with the take-down, it being my first revolver. Load, unload/clearing, function check post field strip, clearing a malfunction all trained at home with dummy rounds. Still try and clean my guns after every shoot, though I admit that doesn't always happen of late.

The reality is I'll probably hit the range 12-15 times a year, mostly in the Spring/Summer/Fall as I prefer to shoot outdoors, though I will do a handful of indoor range times as well. If it's been a while since I've taken a rifle out, I like to confirm zero on the BUIS and optic/scope. I have all that documented, though I still need to set up my dope on the AR10 (even though it's been years). I am looking forward to doing a class this summer, maybe two if I can find a long distance shooting course in addition to a carbine course. I'll be shooting more going forward as I will have more time on my hands.

I don't hunt, though I've thought about starting, but I would need some instruction around dealing with the carcass of a kill. This would be mostly around hunting for sustenance (harvesting a deer and freezing the meat for instance). I have zero desire for game hunting and trophies... no idea where that puts me in terms of the percentage of gun owners, but I'm guessing pretty far up there.

Not an operator, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once and have copious amounts of Punisher gear (comic fan...).
 
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Relative of mine who bought a .38 snub nose back in the 70s, only shot it once during his gun course (never shot a gun before or after that), and has left it loaded with the same rounds ever since:

"I don't go shooting like you do but I was a very good shot when I did. Even the instructor said wow, that's impressive, you're a natural!"

Proceeds to demonstrate himself holding an imaginary pistol. Right hand on grip, left hand cupping his right hand wrist like a well endowed pornstar holds their hammer during a piss.

Good talk.....solid 38 spl cock handling form.
 
jkelly1229 said:
You need the operator af starter pack scar 20s in 6.5 with irons
Fnx 45 tac with an unzerod rmr in a drop leg
Jorts
Crocs
Plate carrier with front plates only
Camelbak full of ipa
Vape pen with rasperry unicorn dick flavoring
Tacticial cashmere scarf
4 knives that cost 20 dollars total and have dank memes
1 pen light
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We can debate some things on that list but apparently I've graduated to operator from Boogaloo boi.
 
mav said:
Was it the scarf that pushed you over to Operator? Because it was totally the tactical scarf and Ghost balaclava that put me over the top.
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Nope. Good with those. (no homo)
But when my Yeet Cannon blew up I had to sub in a G19X. Night sights no RMR.
 
Mesatchornug said:
Basically only for the shooter. And even then, if there's a squib they'll need to manually reload the gun.
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New York reloads.

I'm thinking of one of John Woo's movies where the protagonist fights off a house full of gangsters by ridiculously duct taping a dozen guns to his suit.
 
steven grammont said:
Was wondering to myself , what % of gun owners have no clue how to utilize their gun/guns?
I definitely will not claim to be any sort of expert on guns , or claim to be a top shot. I will say that I do use my guns , I go out and shoot on most weekends, and put forth an effort to always improve. I can't say that I run any type of drills , I just practice making good shots at varying distances.
With that being said .......... I will wait and see if I can get some of the good NES input to my question asked.
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Any shooting is good shooting but just standing at the line shooting isn't indicative of real life use. Taking courses and at a minimum running your own drills is important, especially multiple targets and shooting on the move.
 
VetteGirlMA said:
I have over the years had to go back to a gun shop when I had problems when trying to take usually handguns apart for cleaning. Once I figure out the secret I'm good. For example my M&P2.0 the internal take down lever in the owners manual says to flip up, but it isn't flip all the way up, it's more like a 45 degree angle. One day I spent an hour scratching my head and figuring it was broken, but a quick trip to the gun shop and poof I was back in the game. So I feel stupid in those moments, but the good thing is there's always someone who knows the truth.
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Have you ever had the pleasure of trying to put back together a Ruger MK I, II, or III? If you haven't done it in a while, it can be a lot of fun!
Supermoto said:
A while back I was at the range, Local SWAT guy is sighting in his patrol rifle. Making a nice shotgun pattern at 25y. Finishes shooting, goes up to his target and say "Good Enough" Packs up and leaves. WTF
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It's good enough because he knows he can spray and pray because he doesn't have to pay for the ammo., the taxpayers do!
 
weekendracer said:
I've always said boot camp is brainwashing 18 year old kids to the point they 'can' kill. And I've read that 5% number from multiple sources.

What I saw in training people is that the first day we shot at 'human' targets, almost everyone pauses when the targets turn. You can see the target, you clearly see a weapon, the sudden knowledge you are shooting even at a simulated human, a lot of people never get a shot off on the first facing. It's just not wired into your system to hurt another human, even if they are the 'bad buy'. Go back to what I said in the 'servin and protectin' thread about enough force soon enough with this in mind. You didn't do what you needed to do in the moment, now you're behind the curve, the 'over doing it' starts to make sense 'sometimes'.

For the record, as a new instructor shooting the course, we weren't told about the human targets and a lot of us Red Shirts had the same reaction. After days of hammering plain targets, it was jarring to see if you weren't ready for it. The cadre hid as much information as they could for us first timers, especially us old timers who hadn't been through the new program.
Click to expand...

Yeah but lets be honest, is this really a reluctance to shoot other humans generically or is it an operational reality? In LE plugging a noncombatant is likely not "smiled upon by the
community" etc, etc, ad nauseam. Targets might turn into threats in the fly etc. also, generically if you throw people a curveball, they tend to hesitate, at pretty much anything… like for example, if I took a traffic light and changed one of the major light bulbs to purple or something it would probably cause a friggin pileup. 🤣


TheGreekFreak said:
Relative of mine who bought a .38 snub nose back in the 70s, only shot it once during his gun course (never shot a gun before or after that), and has left it loaded with the same rounds ever since:

"I don't go shooting like you do but I was a very good shot when I did. Even the instructor said wow, that's impressive, you're a natural!"

Proceeds to demonstrate himself holding an imaginary pistol. Right hand on grip, left hand cupping his right hand wrist like a well endowed pornstar holds their hammer during a piss.

Good talk.....solid 38 spl cock handling form.
Click to expand...


When people bloviate like that I just say “just as long as you know, to some degree, it’s a perishable skill”
 
rogersmithiii said:
Unless one of the rounds is a squib.
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Or the person unknowingly “double taps” by firing the next round before recovering a sight picture from the prior recoil. A lot of people, including notably cops, end up firing bullets way into the air while trying to fire quickly under stress. Moderately dangerous in the woods, much more dangerous in an urban or suburban environment with tall, occupied buildings.
 
drgrant said:
That's quite obivously not true, Humans have been killing each other, some rather "easily", for thousands of years. Maybe not "enjoying" it but without much resistance to it. If that wasnt the case there would be heavy voting against war.



lol I knew there were Ayoob glue sniffers but Grossman glue sniffers, oh geez... [rofl] Some of the stuff he says makes sense but a lot of it is drama queen bullshit based on
ancient data and biased sample sets of people. You recruit 100,000 soldiers lets say from conscription basically (this is more or less what the draft was, back a long time ago) and you're shocked that 95% of them don't want to shoot anyone? Of course they don't want to f***ing shoot anyone, they don't want to be there to begin with. [rofl] Of coure they're resistant, they've never mentallly entertained the thought of what it would be like to actually have to employ violence.

Also I take a lot of umbrage with his conclusions.... wtf is "aims to kill?" what does that even mean? The main objective is to stop the other guy from killing you.
Human history contradicts grossman's bloviation pretty broadly.... Yeah these people had a lot of trouble with killing other people. [rofl] Hell they didn't even need guns to do it, either.

en.wikipedia.org

Rwandan genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

And yes I get it, you're going to go "dats africa and those people barely know how to make a fire by rubbing two sticks together". Well, in this country not all that long ago there were people in Salem who crushed other people with cement slabs because they thought they were witches. [rofl]

Understimating the level of depravity a given group of humans will default to if they feel threatened by "something" is silly.

Shit, even in some old LE shootings where someone attacked an officer it's not usually because the officer hesitated, its because they didn't get the drop on the bad guy...
Click to expand...
Plenty of meagerly trained people managed to do it within around 100 yards during the civil war and I’d bet if there were more WWII vets still around they would give you some different numbers. Extrapolating from things like street scenarios and even something like the Vietnam war wouldn’t be reliable b/c proper target identification is a huge issue (i.e. is that a bad guy? One of my guys? Some dude just relieving himself in bush?). That isn’t hesitating to kill in defense, it’s trying to determine if there’s a threat.
 
Oley said:
Plenty of meagerly trained people managed to do it within around 100 yards during the civil war and I’d bet if there were more WWII vets still around they would give you some different numbers. Extrapolating from things like street scenarios and even something like the Vietnam war wouldn’t be reliable b/c proper target identification is a huge issue (i.e. is that a bad guy? One of my guys? Some dude just relieving himself in bush?). That isn’t hesitating to kill in defense, it’s trying to determine if there’s a threat.
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you are wrong, just like dgant. Both of you refuse to accept actual data and instead, rely on anecdotes and personal perception.

Lt. Col. Grossman is not the only researcher that came up with these facts. Brigadier General Sam Marshall who pioneered the use of After Action Reviews and use of human-like targets for training has also studies exact same thing. Milgram study has also proved human reluctance to injure others.

The list is fairly long so your or dgrants statements are of the "earth is flat" kind.
 
Sammy said:
you are wrong, just like dgant. Both of you refuse to accept actual data and instead, rely on anecdotes and personal perception.

Lt. Col. Grossman is not the only researcher that came up with these facts. Brigadier General Sam Marshall who pioneered the use of After Action Reviews and use of human-like targets for training has also studies exact same thing. Milgram study has also proved human reluctance to injure others.

The list is fairly long so your or dgrants statements are of the "earth is flat" kind.
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Lol not sure if serious if anything Milgram and things like the Stanford prison expirement proved it takes very little motivation for humans to do "bad" things to other people.

But, you do you. Keep huffing the grossman glue fumes.
 
drgrant said:
Yeah but lets be honest, is this really a reluctance to shoot other humans generically or is it an operational reality? In LE plugging a noncombatant is likely not "smiled upon by the
community" etc, etc, ad nauseam. Targets might turn into threats in the fly etc. also, generically if you throw people a curveball, they tend to hesitate, at pretty much anything… like for example, if I took a traffic light and changed one of the major light bulbs to purple or something it would probably cause a friggin pileup. 🤣





When people bloviate like that I just say “just as long as you know, to some degree, it’s a perishable skill”
Click to expand...
I'd tend to agree, but we specifically train that a turning target is a 'threat' up to this point in training. At this point, we introduce shoot/don't shoot drills and get into threat recognition in the classroom.
 

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