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Watch the police remove a Watertown family from their home, and then search it.

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Squall said:
This is what it reminded me of......especially after they caught him.

"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

Such was ominously stated by the fictional character Padmé Amidala (Natalie Portman) in "Star Wars III: The Revenge of the Sith" as she watched Emperor Palpatine tell a cheering Senate that he had taken all power away from them to form a Galactic Empire (h/t NBer bradbenj5952).
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[pics]

so...

 
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Quiet said:
The problem lies here, maybe, is that you're looking at this from a cop's perspective. Maybe not.


My dad drilled into my head this oft-repeated phrase to sum up American jurisprudence:

"Better 1,000 guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongfully convicted."

I guess today that needs to be slightly modified to be:

"Better 1,000,000 innocent people be detained and thousands searched than one suspect remain at large."

Pretty sad, huh?
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Dude, I have no issue with your opinion at all. Quite frankly, I agree with most of the people here far more than my arguments tend to let on, mainly because I'm arguing what the law actually is opposed to what I think it should be and becuase I feel the Constitution doesn't necessarily protect everything that I would like it to.

The discussions on NES regarding Constitutional rights and liberties is some of the most vibrant I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. And I like it because we don't argue traditional right vs. left positions, but we far more often flush out the differences between different degrees of libertarianism and classical liberalism. Testing your arguments in public serves three important purposes: 1) It vets them, puts their weaknesses on display, and shows you what the opposing arguments will be, 2) it lets you become intimately familiar with the nuances of your position, and 3) it might actually convince people, or at least allow them to understand your point of view.

But I think this "out yourself" stuff is nothing more than an attempt to quash opposing arguments and debate so other posters can run rampant with unchallenged ideas. I enjoy the vibrant discussion and frankly find it rather offensive when people try to squash it for the far loftier goal of everyone patting everyone else on the back for being stallwart constitutional defenders, or haters of the police via unchallenged, supposedly legitmate pretexts.
 
new guy said:
I wonder how a similar set of circumstances would have played out in the Houston area, for example. Would the public have been more or less cooperative? Would law enforcement have taken the same approach? Would there have been cheering at the end?
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Well, purely speculation that if this was going on house to house in another inner city section of our fair Commonwealth, there'd be a lot more post-mortem soul searching and policy examination going on.

Or maybe not. Seems like my view on this is in the minority, even here on NES. So I salute you, Governor Patrick, you found a way to make even ardent 2A supporters clamor for warrantless house to house searches.

Snow storms and/or suspects on the run = martial law in the Cradle of Liberty that was Massachusetts.
 
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OfficerObie59 said:
Dude, I have no issue with your opinion at all. Quite frankly, I agree with most of the people here far more than my arguments tend to let on, mainly because I'm arguing what the law actually is opposed to what I think it should be and becuase I feel the Constitution doesn't necessarily protect everything that I would like it to.

The discussions on NES regarding Constitutional rights and liberties is some of the most vibrant I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. And I like it because we don't argue traditional right vs. left positions, but we far more often flush out the differences between different degrees of libertarianism and classical liberalism. Testing your arguments in public serves three important purposes: 1) It vets them, puts their weaknesses on display, and shows you what the opposing arguments will be, 2) it lets you become intimately familiar with the nuances of your position, and 3) it might actually convince people, or at least allow them to understand your point of view.

But I think this "out yourself" stuff is nothing more than an attempt to quash opposing arguments and debate so other posters can run rampant with unchallenged ideas. I enjoy the vibrant discussion and frankly find it rather offensive when people try to squash it for the far loftier goal of everyone patting everyone else on the back for being stallwart constitutional defenders, or haters of the police via unchallenged, supposedly legitmate pretexts.
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I get it, I apologized. Move along. Nothing to see here. :D
 
new guy said:
I wonder how a similar set of circumstances would have played out in the Houston area, for example. Would the public have been more or less cooperative? Would law enforcement have taken the same approach? Would there have been cheering at the end?
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I'm betting that the authorities would be using the same urgency that the MA ones did but for a different reason: The would be trying to protect the suspects from the population rather than the population from the suspects.
 
 
MoAmmoPlease said:
Let the floodgates open!!! This is just more evidence of the erosion of our rights. It will be slow but incessant but erode they will. Personally I would have had no problem letting them is to look for this guy but I don't want to be told I have to.


I'm betting no one refused them access. We just do what we are told......
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Haven't followed this since the day it all ended in the mega thread ;) a little fatigued from hearing it all.

But I said back in that thread that several people I and others I know in watertown DID say NO when asked if they could come in and search. They were asked a few simple questions that seemed like they just wanted to hear you talk for a minute and make sure you don't point upstairs.

Now I don't know if this was inside the 20 block war camp zone or outside, but all of them were close enough to have armed to the teeth (shot 19yr old.... [rolleyes] ) SWAT members knock on the door and an armored vehicle with shooter in the turret parked out front of the door.

Many SHEEP in this area would never think to SAY NO in this case, these people did. That is all I know.
 
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jpk said:
Is that why we USED to be told that the courts are "Blind"?

We have lots of laws that have been passed during a fit of insanity/emotion....look at NY's recent gun ban as an excellent example.

But despite that the enforcement of those laws and application of penalities by the courts are based purely upon facts......not feelings.

Our laws and penalties are written to be quantifiable.......emotions are by their very nature not quantifiable.






Had the reaction been "pragmatic" we wouldn't have seen 5+ thousand LEO's dressed up as .mil.

There was nothing pragmatic about the response at all......it was "shock and awe" rather than an efficient and COST EFFECTIVE application of resources.

We had a bleeding kid on foot.......a couple of dogs trained to track and the kid would have been caught in an hour...enforce a perimeter if you're really concerned the bleeding kid might actually find wheels.

The door to door search was far and above the LEAST pragmatic, least effective and most dangerous (to citizens and officers).



Take any example you want.

Accidents are truly a rare occurrence.

They are nearly always caused by willful acts by drivers/other actors,

We choose to text, drink coffee, take prescription drugs, drink alcohol and a raft of other things that we KNOW will cause accidents............these are willful acts and it matters not that some think they can beat the odds....they willingly choose to do it anyway.

We try to explain these events away as "accidents" but the fact of the matter is that they are willful acts with known consequences.

Do you think anyone is more/less outraged/hurt if their husband/wife/son/daughter is killed by a terrorist versus a mugger or a drunk driver?

Nope......

The point at the end of the day is that most people have swallowed the hook thrown out by politicians and they falsely believe that somehow being killed/hurt by a terrorist is somehow scarier/worse/more of a threat than a drunk driver or common criminal and that our response must also somehow be more severe with little or no consideration of the consequences or the crimes committed.

So many people are so outraged about the 4(?) people killed and 200 injured to varying degrees but where's the outrage over the 210 people who were murdered, the 1745 that were raped or the 21,000 that were assaulted by criminals in 2010 for example

FBI ? Table 5

Based on the stats its pretty clear that there is an immanent threat but we don't see the police playing .mil and going door to door searching for these criminals do we?

Of course not.

Fact of the matter is that so long as politicians react like they did and we allow it the terrorists have won.
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You refuse to grasp the difference. Willful harm is not an accident, Drunk drivers don't plan on killing anyone, texters don't plan on killing anyone, the guy shaving an reading the newspaper while driving doesn't plan on killing anyone, these people are selfish and oblivious to the danger they pose to everyone around them, even drunk drivers, they think they are ok to drive, DAH!!

A botched Abortion is different, the woman decide herself she wanted an Abortion, no one forced her to get an Abortion, and it's her fault she picked a doctor that was a scumbag. The Dr is an idiot too and should be taken care of, but there is no need for a manhunt, he can easily be found and stopped, he's a DR. with a practice, and plenty of paper trails to track.

The people on the finish line at the marathon didn't choose to be blown to bits by 2 individuals who are a threat to National Security. The terrorists WILLFULLY decide to take lives. And the plot thickens everyday with more ties to larger terrorist cells, which then becomes more of a national security issue, which is exactly why a manhunt ensued, to find out who they are, and what else might be planned. Terrorist are capable of alot more serious acts than joe rapist on the corner, or Dr baby killer. this is obvious and elementary, and i'm not saying it should be ignored, but thats why it gets put on the back burner. I'm sorry but its all about National Security, it may seem hypocritical but rapists are the least of their problems, there are thousands of rapists, it would be impossible to manhunt them all.

C'mon dude!!!
 
I was just thinking about the boat fiasco.
Since Tsarnaev was unarmed in the boat if the injury to his throat or another gunshot wound came during that hail of bullets, he very likely will have that as a major -A MAJOR- bargaining chip in the disposal of his case. He will ABSOLUTELY not get the death penalty and he may not even get a life sentence in return for signing away his right to sue the police.

If that's the case, they will start to play up that he was such a nice guy, his brother corrupted him, he is so young, he deserves a second chance, he is sparing the families the grief of a trial, blah blah blah as they offer him a 25 year sentence plea bargain to save face for the police departments involved.

It all depends on when he got shot, so we'll have to wait for a while to find out. Watch for the signs of softening coming from the justice department in the coming months.
 
The police now typically treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent. This is why I have no use for them. If you talk to them or let them in your house you are a moron. If they enter a home without a warrant or true probable cause, they are home invaders and should be treated as such with extreme prejudice. They s**k each other off and tell themselves what heroes they are when they act like thugs. Even the few good cops will do nothing because they risk becoming a pariah and losing their pension.
 
ThePreBanMan said:
This still bothers me... I mean a bunch... Like I think about it every day. How could those citizens just let that happen to them? ....and why on gods good earth would the police see any value in such activity? Frisking people as they are dragged out of their homes? What - do they think the terrorist was hiding in their pockets? Pointing guns at the young end elderly alike as they were dragged into the streets... Searching in people's bureaus, drawers, closets.... What - did they think the terrorist was hiding in someone underwear drawer... That is F*cking bullsh1t!

I don't buy into the "police had to protect themselves" argument. It does not help them protect themselves by dragging innocent civilians at gun point into the streets. It does not help the police protect themselves to go rummaging through the private property of law abiding innocent citizens - even if they are sheeple for letting it happen. And unless someone is being arrested - no cop has no god damned business putting his hands on anyone.

This paramilitary action is probable the most egregious and blatant violation of the 4th amendment in our country's history. Its also a violation of the 8th amendment. If your innocent and being dragged by police from your home and into the streets at gunpoint - you're being punished - and in a cruel and unusual way..
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Looking through personal belongings???? LOL, Sounds like a story being twisted out of a wet towel of shit!!!

LEO haters want this to be true, so they believe it is.

I have Bigfoot on video, wanna see it, it's on Youtube???, but your gonna have to sift through all the other fake ones first.

WTF!!! Really???
 
TLB said:
I actually know of someone who was in a really hot area of Watertown and was carrying in his home. Guys (not sure who they were with) swept his house. They made him tender his handgun (no AR) during the searches but gave it back to him after. He was obviously licensed.

I know another person who was questioned and they told the police their house was clear. They did not try to search his home.
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First person failed for allowing them to enter for no reason. Call it what you want, if you're armed, you're not letting some little 19yo dick into your home.

Second person didn't fail because they knew how to take care of themselves and didn't need some knucklehead, playing Army, into his home.
 
Metalhead said:
The police now typically treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent. This is why I have no use for them. If you talk to them or let them in your house you are a moron. If they enter a home without a warrant or true probable cause, they are home invaders and should be treated as such with extreme prejudice. They s**k each other off and tell themselves what heroes they are when they act like thugs. Even the few good cops will do nothing because they risk becoming a pariah and losing their pension.
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This post has alot of assumptions, and possibly some experience, followed up by bitterness!!
 
rkwjunior said:
This post has alot of assumptions, and possibly some experience, followed up by bitterness!!
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And yours are full of retard and statism.

I am bitter, bitter that I can be treated as a criminal for no reason with no due process. If you aren't bitter about that you are dumber than I thought (and I think you are pretty dumb already).
 
TLB said:
I actually know of someone who was in a really hot area of Watertown and was carrying in his home. Guys (not sure who they were with) swept his house. They made him tender his handgun (no AR) during the searches but gave it back to him after. He was obviously licensed.

I know another person who was questioned and they told the police their house was clear. They did not try to search his home.
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That's not possible, ALL LEO's are bad 4th amendment rapists.

The circle jerkers need a Youtube video for proof, your direct source of information is erroneous information.

Welcome to the thread!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Metalhead said:
And yours are full of retard and statism.

I am bitter, bitter that I can be treated as a criminal for no reason with no due process. If you aren't bitter about that you are dumber than I thought (and I think you are pretty dumb already).
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I'm sure your Mr. Innocent!!!
 
rkwjunior said:
Looking through personal belongings???? LOL, Sounds like a story being twisted out of a wet towel of shit!!!

LEO haters want this to be true, so they believe it is.

I have Bigfoot on video, wanna see it, it's on Youtube???, but your gonna have to sift through all the other fake ones first.

WTF!!! Really???
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I wasn't going to respond because I don't like to engage in conversation with folks who feel it necessary to insert insults into their argument. Typically my experience is that they usually do so to cover the inadequacy of their own argument. But this post was such a perfect example of such that I just had to point it out. But I'm sure you have no problem with calling someone a liar and a hater simply because they have an opinion different than your own.
 
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