Was Told CWF for OUI disqualifies me???

[Shogun1011]

Also, absent case law precedent all you have are assertions from people who claim they know what it means. This would also be the kind of case GOAL should be interested in supporting, since a decision in keeping with what the law says (not something you can always count on in MA) would benefit many people, not just the appellant.

What does GOAL do exactly? I'm very new to all this, as i'm sure you can already tell (lol). How would they support my case? I'm very interested!!

 

[Scrivener]

Just talked with a Lawyer who specializes in this type of thing... he said that a CWOF for OUI is not a disqualifier. He basically said that you have to "carefully" fill out the form and give them sufficient reason to believe that you're a stable person worthy of getting this type of license.

Lol...I asked him how much it would cost to fill this form out correctly to get my license...he simply said $1,500.

To fill out your application correctly!?

That sounds way high - are you sure that's not the retainer to take an appeal?

 

[Shogun1011]

To fill out your application correctly!?

That sounds way high - are you sure that's not the retainer to take an appeal?

I'm not really sure what that fee entails. I think that was the price to get it right the first time around and avoid an appeal??

 

[Raoul Duke]

Yeah, but apparently she's still enforcing them. Since the entire thing is
contingent on the interpretations of the acting AG, she could fix the problems
overnight. IMO this makes her just as culpable as Reilly.

-Mike

Exactly...besides, the Cheshire Cat's hard to pin down and the Striped-ass baboon flings $hit every time some question's his judgment, which qualifies him for political appointment but means he's hazardous to approach.

Therefore, Martha carries the blame because she's the only one with the power to obviate the impediments to our ballistic fulfillment.

 

[jar]

To fill out your application correctly!?

That sounds way high - are you sure that's not the retainer to take an appeal?

It sounds pretty low to start an appeal to me, though you'd know better than I, I suppose. Also, the OP isn't in position to appeal, as he hasn't been denied. He was told not to bother applying as he would be denied if he did.

Also, I think simply filling out a good application isn't sufficient, as he's not fighting a discretionary issue. The issuing authority believes he's statutorily disqualified. As I see it, he has two options, convince the IA that his CWOF isn't a disqualifier, or apply, get rejected and convince the appeals board.

 

[RB101]

I had a similar experience. Had a juvenile CWAF still showing up on my record when I applied for my class A. Got refused my first time through. Local P.D. very apologetic and empathetic stating their hands were tied, I was flagging on the criminal history systems board end of things. Then got a lawyer, got a hearing in front of the Firearms Lisencing Review Board, and got to tell what happened. After, they changed their vote and said in their opinion I had a "non-conviction" whatever that is. They were nice enough to call and send letters to me, my lawyer, my local PD. Got cleared the 2nd time through. Took alot of time and $$, but worthwhile.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You have two hurdles, however, "convincing them you are a good guy" does not appear to be the big one.

You need to convince the CLEO that his, or his advisor's, interpretation of the law is incorrect. This is not something that is easily done, and not a job for an amateur.

There is a chance a decent attorney may be able to engage in dialog with the departmental attorney and straighten this out, or it may require some more formal action - such as appeal to the FLRB (not sure how this works with a non-conviction, but you might get them to issue a formal opinion you do not have a disqualifying record). If that fails, you will need a district court appeal - and will either fact that issue plus "suitability", or face a chief who says "I would issue if he were not disqualified." Once again, you are dealing with the technical interpretation of a statute, so it's not enough to go before the judge and tell him what a good guy you are.

 

[KMaurer]

In a sane state, this is exactly the sort of question that some PD or applicant would have taken to the AG for an opinion years ago. Here, of course, the AG's office is too busy trying to catch out-of-state merchants making perfectly legal sales to Mass residents, then strong-arm them into signing consent decrees prohibiting them from engaging in this sort of legal activity in the future. It takes a lot of careful planning and resources, since none of these cases would ever stand up in a court of law. Instead, they'd simple give the same answer they give to manufacturers and dealers attempting to comply with their "consumer protection" regulations --- read it for yourself.

Ken

 

[gonzoga51]

+1 to what Lugnut said as far as when your OUI occured. I beleive an OUI conviction after 5/1994 is considered an automatic DQ against an LTC app. Convictions prior to this have to be disclosed but I don't think they are an Auto-DQ.

 

[lemonlime571]

Legally there is nothing that says you can't have one(in this situation). It is up to the CLEO in your town to grant it or not. A good friend of mine has a CWOF from an OUI(happened 3 years ago) and he has an unrestricted LTC A. He actually just renewed it with no problems. The LT who issued it to him understood that you have to be convicted of a crime that is punishable by a minimum of two years in prison to be Disqualified. So I call BS to whomever you spoke with. Lawyer up and let em have it.

 

[Shogun1011]

Legally there is nothing that says you can't have one(in this situation). It is up to the CLEO in your town to grant it or not. A good friend of mine has a CWOF from an OUI(happened 3 years ago) and he has an unrestricted LTC A. He actually just renewed it with no problems. The LT who issued it to him understood that you have to be convicted of a crime that is punishable by a minimum of two years in prison to be Disqualified. So I call BS to whomever you spoke with. Lawyer up and let em have it.

Nice! That's promising info. thanks!

 

[Cross-X]

Legally there is nothing that says you can't have one(in this situation). It is up to the CLEO in your town to grant it or not. A good friend of mine has a CWOF from an OUI(happened 3 years ago) and he has an unrestricted LTC A. He actually just renewed it with no problems. The LT who issued it to him understood that you have to be convicted of a crime that is punishable by a minimum of two years in prison to be Disqualified. So I call BS to whomever you spoke with. Lawyer up and let em have it.

I think you meant to say convicted of a crime punishable by more than two years.

 

[lemonlime571]

I was typing quickly, sorry. With more time I would have quoted the MGL properly. Very out of character for me.

 

[VTpro]

search for cwof revealed

The licensing statutes each require convictions, which a CWOF, by its express terms is not. Moreover, not all (most, but not all) CWOFs require an Admission of Sufficient Facts. A chief using a mere CWOF as a statutory basis for denial is susceptible to being overturned. If used as a discretionary disqualifier, he would likely be upheld.......

And let us not forget, that the condition precedent to a CWOF is an admission of facts sufficient to warrant a finding of guilty. This is a guilty plea in all but name. What a CWOF gets a D is an escape from penalty, not from the fact that an offense was committed.

 

[Lugnut]

search for cwof revealed

Hmmm. I'm no attorney but I'm not sure I agree with RKG on this. Sometimes going to trial is not worth it for either the court or the defendant and a CWOF is "best" for both parties- it is NOT necessarily an admission of guilt. They may be some risk however of a guilty finding (in a trial or by judge) which would make a CWOF a viable option for the defendant.


Here is some data directly from this web site: http://www.masslegalhelp.org/cori

"The court allows the defendant to "save" his record and not have guilty finding entered as long as he completes a period of probation without further criminal charges and complies with the terms of the probation. Most often occurs when the defendant has admitted to sufficient facts."

Note it says "Most often" not always.

Here is what ASF means:

"Admit to a Finding: admission by defendant that criminal charges are true or that there is sufficient evidence that a judge or jury could find such facts true. Court may either continue the case without a finding for a period of time (see CWOF) or enter a finding of guilty. Also known as admission to sufficient facts."

Anyone should be able to conclude that a CWOF in NOT a Guilty finding.

 

[Shogun1011]

UPDATE!!!!

hey all!! got some good news at the tail end of the day yesterday. I had been in communication with the chief of my town, as well as the CLEO, and they reviewed my case/file during the day. After review, the CLEO did me a huge favor, and is allowing me to get an FID card for now, and said that after the 5 year waiting period is up (which would be just under 4 years from now) if i don't get in any trouble, he'll give me a Class A license!!

this is huge for me!! prior, I could only get an FID after 5 years, and would never be able to get a Class A. I'm so thankful right now!!

anyway, looks like it's all working itself out. THANK YOU GREENFIELD PD!! YOU GUYS ROCK!

And, i thank everyone on this site for giving me advice/help on this issue. YOU GUYS ROCK TOO!! LOL.

Sincerely,
shamus

 

[depicts]

As some wise man once said....

"What you tolerate, you validate; what you put up with - you DESERVE! "

Why is four years going to make you no longer disqualified?

If you can afford it, you should still take him to court. Let the Chief make the statement that he said he would issue in four years, and see if the judge doesn't think that means there is NO disqualifier.

Been there, done that. Won, and paid the bill!!!

 

[Cross-X]

hey all!! got some good news at the tail end of the day yesterday. I had been in communication with the chief of my town, as well as the CLEO, and they reviewed my case/file during the day. After review, the CLEO did me a huge favor, and is allowing me to get an FID card for now, and said that after the 5 year waiting period is up (which would be just under 4 years from now) if i don't get in any trouble, he'll give me a Class A license!!

this is huge for me!! prior, I could only get an FID after 5 years, and would never be able to get a Class A. I'm so thankful right now!!

anyway, looks like it's all working itself out. THANK YOU GREENFIELD PD!! YOU GUYS ROCK!

And, i thank everyone on this site for giving me advice/help on this issue. YOU GUYS ROCK TOO!! LOL.

Sincerely,
shamus

Sorry to deflate your bubble, but that is the PD's way of saying "screw you!".

There is no way you should be made to wait four years for the chance of obtaining an LTC.

Darius Arbabi

 

[vellnueve]

Well, with a CWOF on his record, suitability would likely be an issue with the LTC-A regardless.

 

[Emoto]

Sorry to deflate your bubble, but that is the PD's way of saying "screw you!".

There is no way you should be made to wait four years for the chance of obtaining an LTC.

Darius Arbabi

This is the correct answer.

Keep going for your LTC.

 

[Xak]

Sorry to deflate your bubble, but that is the PD's way of saying "screw you!".i

Possibly, but if you plan on staying there for more than 4 years it would be wise to not make waves and get your Class A in 4 years. Then you have it, and where ever you move to you show up with it and it is harder for them to not renew it as Class A w/o a reason.

I had a similar situation that called for some probation period from getting a class A LTC. I even saw it in the law somewhere. The chief granted me a Class B, said if I re-applied for Class A in 1 year he would grant it (that's when the 7 year period was up). In one year I got my Class A "For All Lawfull Purposes".

I believe you mentioned expunging the charge? IANAL, but I think in MA you can no longer do that. You can anul NH charges to remove SD, though. Not sure about other states.

It may save you a boat load of money to take his deal. After all, he does have discretionary powers, and it might piss him off if you challenge his knowledge/judgment of what the actual law is. My guess is he is looking at the pre-1998 laws, but like I said, IANAL. This is just my impression after what I went through, and read of it just shy of a decade ago.

 

[drgrant]

I had a similar situation that called for some probation period from getting a class A LTC.

There is no such thing in the case of a CWOF. The PD is either:

-A intentionally taking him for a ride
-B unfamiliar with the law and how it works.

If he hasn't lawyered up, he should, if he can afford it.

-Mike

 

[Cross-X]

Possibly, but if you plan on staying there for more than 4 years it would be wise to not make waves and get your Class A in 4 years.

It may save you a boat load of money to take his deal. After all, he does have discretionary powers, and it might piss him off if you challenge his knowledge/judgment of what the actual law is. My guess is he is looking at the pre-1998 laws, but like I said, IANAL. This is just my impression after what I went through, and read of it just shy of a decade ago.

This is bad, ill conceived advice. Follow it at your peril.

 

[VTpro]

Possibly, but if you plan on staying there for more than 4 years it would be wise to not make waves and get your Class A in 4 years. Then you have it, and where ever you move to you show up with it and it is harder for them to not renew it as Class A w/o a reason.
.....

chiefs don't have to give you a reason for restricting/downgrading (if you are referring to Mass in your post)

 

[sksguns]

+2 !!!

Just talked with a Lawyer who specializes in this type of thing... he said that a CWOF for OUI is not a disqualifier. He basically said that you have to "carefully" fill out the form and give them sufficient reason to believe that you're a stable person worthy of getting this type of license.

Lol...I asked him how much it would cost to fill this form out correctly to get my license...he simply said $1,500.

(So, If I pay a lawyer $1,500...then i must be a good citizen, right? haha...just something I found comical.)

You're only as good as you can afford to be...lmao!!!! This is an extrememly interesting thread. Good Luck!!!! I hope it all works out in your favor.

 

[Half Cocked]

A CWOF is not a conviction. A plea tendered pursuant to C278s18 is not a formal guilty plea and is therefore not a conviction. See Comm V. Jackson 45Mass App Ct 666,670 (1998)

You are ENTITLED to the FID. The only issue is whether the CLEO will use the CWOF for a basis of denial based upon suitablility for a LTC.

 

[Xak]

This is bad, ill conceived advice. Follow it at your peril.

I did put a disclaimer that IANAL, and always suggest getting one as I believe he has. It's just an idea, I certainly wouldn't listen to me over an attorney.

Just stating my experience with a chief asking me to wait before getting my Class A. At the time there was no way I could have afforded an attorney. Perhaps I got lucky and it was a stupid idea to trust the chief and wait a year for mine.

Back to Shogun1011's issue: Maybe the chief is just pulling this waiting period out of his butt because the incident was not so long ago and he wants to make sure he is able to stay out of trouble before he starts carrying handguns around on him.

chiefs don't have to give you a reason for restricting/downgrading (if you are referring to Mass in your post)

That was my impression as well, funny, someone tending a gun shop the otherday said they can't legally downgrade you unless something has changed on your record between renewals. I said that doesn't sound right, he said "trust me, I teach the law twice a week". Right.

In anycase, what I was referring to is if he moved someplace where they don't like to upgrade things he may be stuck with whatever this current chief gives him. So perhaps riding it out and getting his Class A in 4 years if he plans to stay might be an option.

DISCLAIMER: None of this is advise! IANAL. I am just making conversation. (Is that better?)

 

[M1911]

That was my impression as well, funny, someone tending a gun shop the otherday said they can't legally downgrade you unless something has changed on your record between renewals. I said that doesn't sound right, he said "trust me, I teach the law twice a week".

You gotta love what some people come up with.

 

[Scrivener]

That was my impression as well, funny, someone tending a gun shop the otherday said they can't legally downgrade you unless something has changed on your record between renewals. I said that doesn't sound right, he said "trust me, I teach the law twice a week". Right.

Who was this legal luminary?

 

[rogersmithiii]

I was under the impression that if a chief doesn't like the size of your nose, your race, gender, occupation, residence, or any other fact about you, he can deny a LTC.