USPSA Shooter Shot with Her Holstered Gun - And Never Touched It

[92G]

So it is possible if this angle was negative the hammer could fall without the trigger being pulled?

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/how-to-test-for-push-off-when-buying-a-used-s-w.21054/



[FONT=&amp]"Anyways, as it turns out, the one smith that I don't test for happened to have push off. Push off is a condition where when the hammer is locked back (single action), the negative engagement of the hammer and trigger allows the hammer to fall if pressed, gun is dropped, ect. This is an extremely unsafe condition, and if you have a S&W with this problem, do not use it (as in firing live ammo) until it is repaired."[/FONT]

M&P has a pivoting sear design. the striker catches on the sear and applies forward pressure. the sear doesn't really cock the striker like a glock or SD9VE (well the M&P does very little striker cocking, maybe like 5%). regardless, it's simply physics such that the striker pushes forward on the sear. if the sear is rounded or angled forward, then force from the striker could be enough to push the sear down. this is analogous to hammer push off in revolvers - that essentially the SA sear is dicked up. usually because someone decided to "fix" it.

another reason why revolvers now have a transfer bar or hammer block is the same logic behind why semi autos have striker blocks. because in the unlikely event of a sear failure, there's another mechanism that prevents the firing pin from contacting primer. this latter mechanism (i.e. firing pin block, hammer safety, transfer bar) is only activated when the trigger is pulled to the rear.

however, as mentioned above sear failures of this nature usually manifest as full auto fire or the gun "doubling up" because the trigger is pulled to the rear thus the firing pin block is disengaged. so now the only thing keeping the gun from firing is the sear, so it keeps going bang.

(see post below, Xtry51 shows it nicely)

so this woman's claim that the gun just went bang on it's own is like claiming to be hit by 2 different bolts of lighting at the same time. it's bullshit. she should learn to take responsibility for herself.

 

[xtry51]

So I looked at your posted presentation on how to modify the sear. Then I looked at her video. I compared 7:43 in the video to slide 23 of 46 in your posted presentation. I tried to compare the two. I am by no means a gunsmith in any sense of the word. But slide 23 of 46 in your posted presentation states the following:

"Stock sear has hump onstriker engagement areathat cams striker backwhen pulling trigger.• Polishing this area will cutdown weight.• Cutting the hump downwill also improve theweight.• Do not cut to a negativeangle."

Now compare the sear from her gun to the unmodified sear in 7:43 of the video....

Could that area have been cut to a negative angle? And why should it not be cut to a negative angle?

I'm not being a wise a$$...I'm just looking at and comparing what is posted. Again, I have zero gunsmithing skills.

Here's a picture to illustrate:

The sear on the left is "negative angle" The sear on the right is proper. To make a sear negative you must square it off, then go the opposite direction.

You can see clearly in the video pictures the the sear is still positive angle. A negative angle would look like a completely different part. There's basically no difference in the two parts shown in the video.

To further the point, a gun with a negative sear would still not fire without the trigger fully depressed. The trigger must be pulled on an M&P to disable the FP block. A gun with a stock trigger bar and FP Block that had a negative sear *could* go FA when holding the trigger due to what Squib described. But when you released the trigger, the gun would again be incapable of firing.

 

[robjax]

M&P has a pivoting sear design. the striker catches on the sear and applies forward pressure. the sear doesn't really cock the striker like a glock or SD9VE (well the M&P does very little striker cocking, maybe like 5%). regardless, it's simply physics such that the striker pushes forward on the sear. if the sear is rounded or angled forward, then force from the striker could be enough to push the sear down. this is analogous to hammer push off in revolvers - that essentially the SA sear is dicked up. usually because someone decided to "fix" it.

another reason why revolvers now have a transfer bar or hammer block is the same logic behind why semi autos have striker blocks. because in the unlikely event of a sear failure, there's another mechanism that prevents the firing pin from contacting primer. this latter mechanism (i.e. firing pin block, hammer safety, transfer bar) is only activated when the trigger is pulled to the rear.

so this woman's claim that the gun just went bang on it's own is like claiming to be hit by 2 different bolts of lighting at the same time. it's bullshit. she should learn to take responsibility for herself.

Ok...thank you for that explanation. So yes, given these other safeties then her story seems less likely. Another thing that struck me funny in her video is in the beginning, and I'm not going back to get what she said verbatim, but the gist is that every competitive shooter is looking for an edge to shave a second here or there. Well...she is a competitive shooter and we only have her word she wasn't playing gunsmith. Why should I believe she is different when it comes to improving her time? So I have that kind of gnawing at me too. She specifically stated that the other guy was a competitive shooter too. Knowing that he was a shooter and all shooters look to shave time shouldn't she have known that there was a great chance this gun had more than likely been modified? And as such, shouldn't you give that gun a once over before you use it and if you are not skilled enough to know then have someone who is look at it? I knew nothing of this stuff an hour a go and now I feel confident to at least look to see if I ever bought one of these firearms.

 

[robjax]

Here's a picture to illustrate:

The sear on the left is "negative angle" The sear on the right is proper. To make a sear negative you must square it off, then go the opposite direction.

You can see clearly in the video pictures the the sear is still positive angle. A negative angle would look like a completely different part. There's basically no difference in the two parts shown in the video.

To further the point, a gun with a negative sear would still not fire without the trigger fully depressed. The trigger must be pulled on an M&P to disable the FP block. A gun with a stock trigger bar and FP Block that had a negative sear *could* go FA when holding the trigger due to what Squib described. But when you released the trigger, the gun would again be incapable of firing.

Again, unbelievable what I just learned from you guys here in an hour and not even face to face. She's been shooting competitively for 10 years she should of at least had a clue.

Thank you for that illustration and the explanation.

 

[bigblue]

Ok...thank you for that explanation. So yes, given these other safeties then her story seems less likely. Another thing that struck me funny in her video is in the beginning, and I'm not going back to get what she said verbatim, but the gist is that every competitive shooter is looking for an edge to shave a second here or there. Well...she is a competitive shooter and we only have her word she wasn't playing gunsmith. Why should I believe she is different when it comes to improving her time? So I have that kind of gnawing at me too. She specifically stated that the other guy was a competitive shooter too. Knowing that he was a shooter and all shooters look to shave time shouldn't she have known that there was a great chance this gun had more than likely been modified? And as such, shouldn't you give that gun a once over before you use it and if you are not skilled enough to know then have someone who is look at it? I knew nothing of this stuff an hour a go and now I feel confident to at least look to see if I ever bought one of these firearms.

A quick google search would give you an idea of "m&p competition modifications". Trigger mods comprise at least 75% of the results.

Hell, even if I didn't know the guy was a competition shooter, I would break it down. When I buy LEO trade-ins, first thing I do is break it down and replace half the trigger assembly. You need to take responsibility for your actions and your guns.

Irregardless, I have seen nothing in the video or any other post that explains how she got around the firing pin block without pulling the ****ing trigger. She is lying.

 

[oldguy68]

I would have to call BS on this woman's claim just on the fact of how the firing pin block is deactivated by the trigger bar.
Never mind she kept shooting a pistol she states she was having problems with.
She should have stopped for everyone's safety and sent the pistol back to S&W for repair if she was so concerned!

Me, if a firearm is not working properly. I stop shooting it till it is fixed period!
Other people getting hurt are more important than me trying to "fix" it at the range!

She chambered the round that she put through her leg. It's all her own fault!

Next time you purchase a firearm learn how it operates before shooting it.
Use quality ammunition.
Thoroughly clean the firearm and magazines before going to the range.
Read the owners manual and properly lubricate it.
All these will help insure your firearm operates properly.
If it doesn't, immediately stop shooting and have the firearm repaired by a competent gunsmith or send it back to the factory.

So much fail in this video I had to stop after only a few seconds in..

 

[robjax]

A quick google search would give you an idea of "m&p competition modifications". Trigger mods comprise at least 75% of the results.

Hell, even if I didn't know the guy was a competition shooter, I would break it down. When I buy LEO trade-ins, first thing I do is break it down and replace half the trigger assembly. You need to take responsibility for your actions and your guns.

Irregardless, I have seen nothing in the video or any other post that explains how she got around the firing pin block without pulling the ****ing trigger. She is lying.

Yup...seems to be the only way that could have happened. If you look at her holster it's possible the flap was caught in the trigger guard and she didn't know. Or she hooked it holstering and was in some shock after that bullet hit her leg.

 

[92G]

Again, unbelievable what I just learned from you guys here in an hour and not even face to face. She's been shooting competitively for 10 years she should of at least had a clue.

Thank you for that illustration and the explanation.

I didn't really appreciate glocks all that much until I started disassembling every other striker gun. then the genius of glock design became apparent to me. for example, the downward movement of the sear is not accomplished by a pivoting mechanism, sear springs or shapes of the sear....rather the glock uses a simple disconnector to force the sear downward. it's brilliant.

also in a glock the firing pin block holds the extractor in place. for this reason the gun literally cannot operate without the firing pin block in place. on the other hand an M&P firing pin block can be removed and the gun will still run. thus the only way I believe this woman's story is if the firing pin block was removed. but the fellow's powerpoint shows nothing of this sort.

separate brilliant glock design is what happens during case rupture. typically the firing pin block + extractor blow out. look adjacent the striker channel there's a tiny hole that transmits gas from the breech to the striker block channel...that's no accidental design. next the magazine blows out, also intentional. this is one reason I never install steel mag releases. the whole point of plastic is that under enough pressure it will give way, thus allowing safer decompression.

--

getting back on topic, I was taught to be very cautious reshaping any surfaces on MIM'ed parts because they are typically hardened externally, and so removing surfaces will expose the softer metal. at first it may seem fine, but the wear is greatly accelerated and can become unpredictable. if someone wants to reshape their M&P sear, I believe they're much better served just buying an apex or other aftermarket shaped sear rather than remove hardened surfaces with a file or dremel.

when I took the P320 armorer course they said the only guns coming back with weird problems have had their sear surfaces "improved". the MIM'ed parts only have a few thousandths of hardened surface and were never intended to be reshaped. equally depressing is that someone needs a P320 trigger improved to hit their target...the damn trigger is retardedly good out of the box.

 

[xtry51]

You could in practice remove the FP block completely AND mill a negative angle on the sear. This would create a condition where hitting the gun on something *could* make it go off by push off.

I'm pretty sure if that was the case, we'd have heard about the removed FP block and not the slightly modified sear.

 

[robjax]

I didn't really appreciate glocks all that much until I started disassembling every other striker gun. then the genius of glock design became apparent to me. for example, the downward movement of the sear is not accomplished by a pivoting mechanism, sear springs or shapes of the sear....rather the glock uses a simple disconnector to force the sear downward. it's brilliant.

also in a glock the firing pin block holds the extractor in place. for this reason the gun literally cannot operate without the firing pin block in place. on the other hand an M&P firing pin block can be removed and the gun will still run. thus the only way I believe this woman's story is if the firing pin block was removed. but the fellow's powerpoint shows nothing of this sort.

separate brilliant glock design is what happens during case rupture. typically the firing pin block + extractor blow out. look adjacent the striker channel there's a tiny hole that transmits gas from the breech to the striker block channel...that's no accidental design. next the magazine blows out, also intentional. this is one reason I never install steel mag releases. the whole point of plastic is that under enough pressure it will give way, thus allowing safer decompression.

--

getting back on topic, I was taught to be very cautious reshaping any surfaces on MIM'ed parts because they are typically hardened externally, and so removing surfaces will expose the softer metal. at first it may seem fine, but the wear is greatly accelerated and can become unpredictable. if someone wants to reshape their M&P sear, I believe they're much better served just buying an apex or other aftermarket shaped sear rather than remove hardened surfaces with a file or dremel.

when I took the P320 armorer course they said the only guns coming back with weird problems have had their sears worked on by gunsmiths. the MIM'ed parts only have a few thousandths of hardened surface and were never intended to be reshaped. equally depressing is that someone needs a P320 trigger improved to hit their target...the damn trigger is retardedly good out of the box.

well, because of this I wouldn't be surprised if they implement more strict regulations as it pertains to modifications for these competitions. There is always one that ruins it for the rest..

 

[bigblue]

well, because of this I wouldn't be surprised if they implement more strict regulations as it pertains to modifications for these competitions. There is always one that ruins it for the rest..

This is not the first person to shoot themselves with a modified M&P and it won't be the last. Plenty of morons out there modify the safety parts of the gun that don't need to be touched for a good trigger job. For example, I have seen people shave, reshape, and polish the firing pin block on a Glock. Why? How does that improve your trigger pull? Those safeties are in the gun for a damn good reason.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That entire video sounds like it was scripted by her attorney:

- The problem is a trigger job
- Trigger job by amateur
- Did not tell her
- No mention of why firing pin block failed
- "not a nook and crannie cleaning" - to explain why she did not notice the change
- "by no means a firearms expert" - ditto

The only flaw in her carefully laid out summation to the jury was mention of buying the gun used from a USPSA competition shooter, which should have immediately created the assumption of possible trigger work.

One of two things happened: Either something pulled the trigger or the gun discharged without a trigger pull. No way to tell which happened from the probable plaintiff's video.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

I million dollar bet: Her finger was on the trigger.

 

[bigblue]

That entire video sounds like it was scripted by her attorney:

- The problem is a trigger job
- Trigger job by amateur
- Did not tell her
- No mention of why firing pin block failed
- "not a nook and crannie cleaning" - to explain why she did not notice the change
- "by no means a firearms expert" - ditto

The only flaw in her carefully laid out summation to the jury was mention of buying the gun used from a USPSA competition shooter, which should have immediately created the assumption of possible trigger work.

One of two things happened: Either something pulled the trigger or the gun discharged without a trigger pull. No way to tell which happened from the probable plaintiff's video.

Well that and she has been a competition shooter for 10 years. That pretty much blows the whole "I had no idea people did trigger jobs" idea out the window.

 

[robjax]

That entire video sounds like it was scripted by her attorney:

- The problem is a trigger job
- Trigger job by amateur
- Did not tell her
- No mention of why firing pin block failed
- "not a nook and crannie cleaning" - to explain why she did not notice the change
- "by no means a firearms expert" - ditto

The only flaw in her carefully laid out summation to the jury was mention of buying the gun used from a USPSA competition shooter, which should have immediately created the assumption of possible trigger work.

One of two things happened: Either something pulled the trigger or the gun discharged without a trigger pull. No way to tell which happened from the probable plaintiff's video.

because that is what it is. Either they purposely left out any reference to the block on purpose to not reveal to much prior to the law suit or they are going to take their chances that a jury is as ignorant about this subject as I was 2 hours ago. The only difference with me is I like guns so when explained as clear as mud to me it doesn't travel over my head. Don't expect the same understanding from a anti-jury.

They will play on the fact that the modifications should have been disclosed to her rather than her having competed for 10 years and she knows that competitive shooters modify their guns. She knows it because she said it on in the video.

 

[jar]

I'm really confused by the contradiction between 10 year competition shooter trying to get every advantage and a holster with flap on it.

 

[Supermoto]

If I was in Ben's class, I would probably shoot myself too

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The title of this thread is misleading - it should be "... Claimed to have never touched it" rather than ".... never touched it".

We do not have any evidence other than her assertion she did not touch the trigger. Ditto for part of the holster or a foreign object doing so.

I'd give better than even odds she had an attorney help with that video.

 

[Scott7980]

People and modifications is the reason I will not buy used guns

 

[bigblue]

People and modifications is the reason I will not buy used guns

Meh, its just metal and wood/plastic. Do your research and inspect the gun before you shoot it. Irregardless, I have yet to see anything that proves the gun was at fault here. In the absence of that evidence, I will assume the shooter is at fault every time. Guns don't shoot people, people do.

 

[thormx538]

I'm really confused by the contradiction between 10 year competition shooter trying to get every advantage and a holster with flap on it.

What do you have against my new Single Stack setup bro? Tier 0, high speed low drag, opr8r status

 

[glockerblogger]

Pretty much. Something either stuck the gun REALLY HARD, or something snagged the trigger. Partly why I'm risk adverse to leather holsters, kydex doesn't lose it's shape or soften....A while back a guy shot him self in the ass cheek with a floppy leather holster. But that's a personal preference.

My first holster was leather. I switched to kydex and never looked back. I still have an aversion to striker fired, not sure why.

 

[edseas2]

Bill's class was great. There's a tourniquet in the car along with all of the other goodies (Israeli Bandage, Quikclot etc that he recommends) for an emergency trauma kit and a tourniquet in the backpack. I met a SEAL who told me that the best things for a trauma kit were duck tape and a couple of plastic bags but he had a lot of training.

 

[bigblue]

Bill's class was great. There's a tourniquet in the car along with all of the other goodies (Israeli Bandage, Quikclot etc that he recommends) for an emergency trauma kit and a tourniquet in the backpack. I met a SEAL who told me that the best things for a trauma kit were duck tape and a couple of plastic bags but he had a lot of training.

He forget his camera, pen, & paper to write his next book.

 

[xtry51]

Bill's class was great. There's a tourniquet in the car along with all of the other goodies (Israeli Bandage, Quikclot etc that he recommends) for an emergency trauma kit and a tourniquet in the backpack. I met a SEAL who told me that the best things for a trauma kit were duck tape and a couple of plastic bags but he had a lot of training.

And apparently a good deal of experience with sucking chest wounds.

 

[5 DOLLAR FOOT LONG]

This woman is a C/D class shooter who does a lot of shooting at ND clubs.

Evidently.

 

[Spicolii]

Everyones a victim now a days. Whenever you buy a used anything its on you to know what you got. Sometimes you get screwed and have to learn from your mistake. Sometimes you accidentally shoot yourself in the leg because your incompetent. Its life, just the way she goes sometimes. Its her gun its her fault.

 

[edseas2]

Exactly right.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

I didn't read it or any of the comments, but hopefully this is a 2 page discussion about why YOU ALWAYS HAVE A TOURNIQUET and knowledge of its application instead of "glock iz bettur than m&p" or vice versa.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

First aid training is useful as well. You get range style points if an accidental shooting victim is properly packaged for transport with the ambulance arrives. Points are deducted for standing around with a dumb look on your face, or playing field doctor causing an initial reaction of "my god what did you do to him?".

Bonus points are assessed for wearing protective gloves and having a CPR mouthpiece handy (though current training emphasizes chest compression over the breathing).

Tactical training is fun, but first responder training can also save a life. Get some.