Update 3/8/09 - It's SHTF Time On The Mexican Border

[Garys]

Too bad Palin was not elected Vice President. We could have sent her down to the border with her hunting rifles to take care of business! Put some elk heads on a few of them drug cartel members and they'd be dead meat!

Truth is I fully expect this will happen not only in Mexico, but in other countries as well. Economic demise brings out the worst in people, and I suspect we'll see it around the world.

Thanks for sharing.

Rich

This really has nothing to do with economic demise. It has to do with criminal gangs, even if given a fancy name like cartels, rolling over the legal government in a country on our border. The real danger here is that Mexico will become for all intents and purposes a "failed state" as Somalia is.

If the cartels really do have 100,000 armed men ready to fight, it's a major problem for Mexico and can well be a major problem for the US.

I'm not sure what you Palin reference is about, then again, I'm pretty sure I don't much care.

Don't think for a minute that this isn't one of those "tests" that VP Biden referenced in the campaign. All sorts of people and groups are interested in testing a new President with very little experience. Just as the Chinese test Pres. Bush early on in his administration, others are testing Pres. Obama.

 

[9000S]

You are correct sir!!!

Mr Barnett. MM 385 on highway 80 east from Douglas Az.... poor fellow. If I were him I would already be hiding the bodies....

 

[GSG]

Maybe this is the case TomH was referring to... or, maybe not.

OK, that would make sense, I was referring to this one, where a Texas homeowner shot a kid.


http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=44864

 

[mikem317]

The evilness of prohibition is rearing its head. Nothing more.

The sooner the war on drugs ends, the sooner the violence ends.

The United States had the same thing happen when alcohol consumption was outlawed in the early 20th century.

As soon as 18A was abolished, the moonshiners' margins collapsed. When their margins collapsed, there was no incentive to use violence to protect their alcohol producing resources and distribution network. Of course, people were drinking all the while; a situation not too dissimilar with marijuana use today in the United States and Mexico.

 

[squirt]

I don't care if this sounds insensitive, but the gloves NEED TO COME OFF. This has gone on for far too long with ZERO results.

Shoot at anything that crosses the border illegally. Execute any and all traffickers making any attempt to come into the U.S. This is already impacting this country with the influx in mexican gangs and drugs flowing into this country.

This needs to stop now, before we are all fighting them on our streets.

 

[cricco]

To those who believe that legalization is the answer....Let me ask you this....Who is it that will be purchasing these legalized drugs? The answer, Addicts. Now where, you may ask, will these "addicts" get the money to purchase legalized drugs? Well, there are several possibilities.
1) They will work for it (not likely. After all, they are addicts).
2) They will be deemed "addicts" thus "disabled" and our taxpayers will foot the bill. Perfect for those who support Socialized medicine. Just what I want to do, pay for some junkie to stay high for the rest of his life.
3) They will rob, steal, embezzle, threaten,murder, and intimidate to get it. This is the most likely solution. After all, that's what they do now.

 

[cekim]

To those who believe that legalization is the answer....Let me ask you this....Who is it that will be purchasing these legalized drugs? The answer, Addicts. Now where, you may ask, will these "addicts" get the money to purchase legalized drugs? Well, there are several possibilities.
1) They will work for it (not likely. After all, they are addicts).
2) They will be deemed "addicts" thus "disabled" and our taxpayers will foot the bill. Perfect for those who support Socialized medicine. Just what I want to do, pay for some junkie to stay high for the rest of his life.
3) They will rob, steal, embezzle, threaten,murder, and intimidate to get it. This is the most likely solution. After all, that's what they do now.

Again, I am no fan of drugs, users or pushers, but all these same doomsday arguments were made WRT to alcohol... It's not that they were "wrong" in suggesting there will be people who destroy themselves, they were wrong in presuming this would be such a widespread problem that it was worth the cost and loss of freedom of prohibition... There is no perfect world, we need to stop trying to create it and deal with the reality we have...

It would be less of an issue if we were also progressing to a nanny state...

The more we demand the state take care of us and pay for our healthcare, the more it must limit our behavior to cut costs for all the reasons you suggest... Just one more reason we should not be nationalizing healthcare...

 

[Yelena]

To those who believe that legalization is the answer....Let me ask you this....Who is it that will be purchasing these legalized drugs? The answer, Addicts. Now where, you may ask, will these "addicts" get the money to purchase legalized drugs? Well, there are several possibilities.
1) They will work for it (not likely. After all, they are addicts).
2) They will be deemed "addicts" thus "disabled" and our taxpayers will foot the bill. Perfect for those who support Socialized medicine. Just what I want to do, pay for some junkie to stay high for the rest of his life.
3) They will rob, steal, embezzle, threaten,murder, and intimidate to get it. This is the most likely solution. After all, that's what they do now.

Legalization without holdng a drug user fully responsible for all the consequences of his habbit is not an answer. "Fully responsible" meaning zero free services and encouraging good citizens to use lethal force to pretect themselves and their property. Plus, drug addiction must not be counted as "disability" or "mental illness", so junkies who commit crimes must get their full scentences, not "treatment". Seriously... If drugs are legal and addicts are treated as worthless junkies, they will sooner rather than later die out.

 

[Garys]

Legalization without holdng a drug user fully responsible for all the consequences of his habbit is not an answer. "Fully responsible" meaning zero free services and encouraging good citizens to use lethal force to pretect themselves and their property. Plus, drug addiction must not be counted as "disability" or "mental illness", so junkies who commit crimes must get their full scentences, not "treatment". Seriously... If drugs are legal and addicts are treated as worthless junkies, they will sooner rather than later die out.

You know, if I were young, handsome, and single, I'd propose to you. Provided of course that you're a female and your avatar is not a portrait.

Seriously, you have completely covered the conditions under which drugs should be legalized.

 

[dwarven1]

Always keep it low, and dont worry im doing ok!

Good to hear! But why were you surprised we were thinking of you? We remember our own!

Hope you're getting combat pay down there. Sounds like you're earning it.

All we need is a right to protect our lives, our homes, our cars, our children. A right to kill whoever breaks into your home or car, and whoever attempts to harm you or your loved ones.

The problem is that there are too many bleeding heart liberals around trying to be "fair" to the poor, downtrodden, scum. To borrow a phrase from West Side Story: "It ain't just a question of misunderstood; deep down in side them they're no good!"

I don't care if this sounds insensitive, but the gloves NEED TO COME OFF. This has gone on for far too long with ZERO results.

+1

 

[cricco]

Legalization without holdng a drug user fully responsible for all the consequences of his habbit is not an answer. "Fully responsible" meaning zero free services and encouraging good citizens to use lethal force to pretect themselves and their property. Plus, drug addiction must not be counted as "disability" or "mental illness", so junkies who commit crimes must get their full scentences, not "treatment". Seriously... If drugs are legal and addicts are treated as worthless junkies, they will sooner rather than later die out.

Yelena, this post is laughable. I mean, come on. Hold addicts accountable??? Addicts by definition, are NEVER accountable. Zero free services for addicts? Lethal force???!! FULL FREAKIN SENTENCES???!!!! Deny treatment??!!!! Good Lord! Though I must applaude your moral compass, I think we all know that these are ridiculous requests that are light years away in comparisson to the "legalization" issue being on our doorstep.

 

[cekim]

Yelena, this post is laughable. I mean, come on. Hold addicts accountable???

You hold them "accountable" by denying them services... Sentencing to rehab when they commit crimes under the influence (to be served during the sentence for the crime)

Were not talking about having them balance a checkbook here, just to bear the cost of their actions whatever that cost might be...

Not saying I know where to strike the balance here, but this is not laughable, this is reality... We are going to have to do this one way or the other...

 

[Zappa]

Update: The Morgues Are Overflowing

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29583080

==

The casket business is booming.

 

[Jaxon]

Why do they spend so much time in the morgue? ID? Burn'em.

 

[William Wallace]

I made the mistake of mentioning (with the utmost sincerity) "border target practice" at a lunch table one afternoon at work. It was a 10-1 drubbing for the rest of lunch....
"Sorry folks, you invade my country I'm putting the cross hairs right in the middle of your uni-brow."

 

[SemiAutoSam]

I agree 100% with this statement. I wish others did as well.

Below is my favorite line from the news story about Obama being briefed about the situation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29577612/

Both the U.S. and Canada have warned that murders related to drug activity in certain parts of Mexico, particularly along the border with the U.S., raised the level of risk in visiting the country.

I made the mistake of mentioning (with the utmost sincerity) "border target practice" at a lunch table one afternoon at work. It was a 10-1 drubbing for the rest of lunch....
"Sorry folks, you invade my country I'm putting the cross hairs right in the middle of your uni-brow."

 

[center442]

From the link:

The attackers lashed or punctured nearly every part of his body. Then they cut off the dead man's head, wrapped it in a plastic grocery bag and dumped it with his body between two tractor-trailers on a city street.

As with most murders in Ciudad Juarez, police found no witnesses, no weapons. Only the battered corpse on the steel coroner's table carries clues to who he was and how he died.

For this they needed a coroner?

 

[BruceW]

NES group hunting trip, anyone?

its not a group hunt...its the next step up in appleseed training, 200 yard moving targets.

 

[doobie]

Simple fix: End the Drug War. Spend the money on education not a war!

 

[NH40VE]

i have said this for a long time. border patrol should be sniper training. crossings would end quickly after word of that got out.

my thoughts exactly..i've alway thought that they should treat every attempt to cross like a attempted invasion (by the illegal enemy) and the punishment is death..

 

[SemiAutoSam]

When all else fails.

 

[Skeeterhunter71]

When all else fails.

 

[2 Bear Arms]

This is not directed at any one in particular it is just some of my rambling thoughts.

I have occasionally thought that if drugs weren’t illegal then a lot of the problem would go away. But as I though more about it and took everything I could think of into consideration I realized it is much more complicated then that. The problem with the drug users is actually the minor part of the problem. The people (if we can even call them that) that are the drug dealers are not going to suddenly become upstanding citizens if their drug market were to go away. I would guess that most of them want to make a lot of money or they want power or both and they don’t want to work hard for it. So if they can’t make this kind of money selling drugs to people stupid enough to put that garbage into their bodies what do they then do? The violence will just be directed some place else. I don’t even want to think what the implications of that are.

Now the whole alcohol prohibition argument in an attempt to use it as an example is again just looking at the surface.

And there is the other part of the drug trade from places like Afghanistan. I wonder if we could reduce the supply of drugs by subsidizing the growers (like the poppy growers) to grow a food crop. Would it cost less then fighting the drug trade there? Now of course if we reduce the supply and the demand is still there …

You will never change the world with the law; you can only change people from the inside out. But that is another whole discussion.

Now some of these people may deserve to be turned inside out.

 

[cekim]

Now the whole alcohol prohibition argument in an attempt to use it as an example is again just looking at the surface.

No one is arguing that drug dealers and traffickers will suddenly take up tennis and stop their criminal ways...

The reality is that the alcohol parallel is correct, but you have to look far deeper than "bad people will do bad things".

You have to look at the economics that allow them to operate outside of society. The drug traffic creates an alternate job market, currency and "citizenship". In effect a nation operating within a nation.

Even in the world of "bad guys", 99% are sheep 1% are wolves. Take away the economic engine behind the wolf and he can't keep a flock around him.

The transition will be rough, there will likely be an increase in property and violent crime initially, but if the international drug trade is brought to its knees by making things 1/100th or less the price they are now, their ability to impose their "bad guy" will on everyone else will be vastly diminished...

This is a multi-generational problem that we have made far worse by continuing it as long as we have... You aren't going to win the war, you aren't going to stop the black market, so we need to look at the end-game here. Find the "least worst" way to get to a better place. There are no "good" options. Only less bad...

 

[Spanz]

It is not a perfect solution to the problem, but legalizing marijuana would solve a couple issues:
you would redirect vast amounts of law enforcement effort into more serious areas (harder drugs, illegal aliens, anti-terrorism)
you would not tie up the legal system and the jails with trivial crimes
we would save a boat load of money by redirecting wasted resources
we could generate a boat load of money by taxing pot
you would not ruin some teenagers life (become a prohibited person) for a youthful indiscretion
You would have a minor victory in that you are taking away one more instance of the government trying to control our lives

Lets face it, this is very similar to the prohibition on alcohol, except that it was done with much more hypocrisy (refer madness, marijuana tax stamp law, etc). Watch the movie aka tommy chong some day if you do not realize how much of our law enforcement resources are utterly wasted on this!

Take all that pot money away from the bad guys, spend it on guarding the boarder along Mexico, and we will have a huge drop in crime in this country.

And think about things closer to home: why do we need a new 10 year guaranteed prison term for shooting at a MA cop? Gangbangers plying their drug trade right in our back yard! Lets bankrupt their corporation!

We simply do not have the $ to continue this farce/dubious enforcement of marijuana prohibition.

 

[mikem317]

Yes, legalization is the obvious choice.

Overnight, gross margin on drug production would plummet from several thousand percentage points to single-digit margins. This would wipe out any incentive for waring cartels to compete for drug trafficking distribution channels and markets.

This is the only solution.

 

[cekim]

Yes, legalization is the obvious choice.

Overnight, gross margin on drug production would plummet from several thousand percentage points to single-digit margins. This would wipe out any incentive for waring cartels to compete for drug trafficking distribution channels and markets.

This is the only solution.

I think the resistance to this we face now is the same basic ignorance of economics that is leading us to socialism...

People assume that since they are "bad guys" or doing "illegal things" that economics isn't the driving force behind their actions...

Even in a socialist system, profit motive is king - it just takes requires different actions to "maximize one's wealth" in such a system (i.e. political connections, participation in black markets by even otherwise "ethical" people).

Humans adapt beautifully to any regime, "legal" or otherwise and capitalism re-appears. Supply, demand, profit motive are the "least bad" approach - everything else increases cost and violence as a function of imbalances caused by doomed attempts to "predict" valuation and suppress supply and demand...

 

[GSG]

Yes, legalization is the obvious choice.

Overnight, gross margin on drug production would plummet from several thousand percentage points to single-digit margins. This would wipe out any incentive for waring cartels to compete for drug trafficking distribution channels and markets.

This is the only solution.

Like copper prices?

Oil prices?

Tungsten prices in World War Two Europe (and the gang wars it caused)?

Diamond prices in the world today?

All legal substances, all surrounded by crime in their time.

 

[Coyote33]

...Diamond prices in the world today?

All legal substances, all surrounded by crime in their time.

Diamonds are still rare, or at least in controlled distribution. Plants (drugs) are plentiful.

 

[Metalhead]

Even if pot were legalized it would be so heavily taxed that there would be a black market demand. Cigarettes are legal and there is a black market demand for packs without any tax stamp. Booze is legal and yet people still make and sell moonshine.