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Trigger Discipline
- Thread starter kid_fisto
- Start date
You know, they're super careful and disciplined enough to never move that finger!
Look down the line. They are all fingering the trigger....
They are on some kind of vehicle and probably performing an exercise where finger on trigger is the norm. If the vehicle hits a bump in the road etc. I would be concerned about unintended discharges. Then again, they may all have safeties engaged. So much uncertainty with pics like that. Unknown context and circumstances must be considered.
They are on some kind of vehicle and probably performing an exercise where finger on trigger is the norm. If the vehicle hits a bump in the road etc. I would be concerned about unintended discharges. Then again, they may all have safeties engaged. So much uncertainty with pics like that. Unknown context and circumstances must be considered.
I get a kick out of these threads.
Spend some time in the .mil. You'll get 24/7 exposure to dangerous firearms handling. I was flagged every day several times at a minimum by loaded guns. Big deal. Life goes on. Only one person ended up shot by accident.
We used to dry fire at each other in the barracks for sight picture training via orders from the Drill's.![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Spend some time in the .mil. You'll get 24/7 exposure to dangerous firearms handling. I was flagged every day several times at a minimum by loaded guns. Big deal. Life goes on. Only one person ended up shot by accident.
We used to dry fire at each other in the barracks for sight picture training via orders from the Drill's.
close enough for government work.
I get a kick out of these threads.
Spend some time in the .mil. You'll get 24/7 exposure to dangerous firearms handling. I was flagged every day several times at a minimum by loaded guns. Big deal. Life goes on. Only one person ended up shot by accident.
We used to dry fire at each other in the barracks for sight picture training via orders from the Drill's.
Sucks to be that one person
Only an elite few are allowed to have ammo.
Usually only in training, in war or if deemed "politically reliable"
I had a student who, during his time in the Chinese .mil only fired a "handful" of rounds during training.
Then again, I could be wrong. Life is cheap over there, maybe it is in the budget to lose a few due to ND.
Usually only in training, in war or if deemed "politically reliable"
I had a student who, during his time in the Chinese .mil only fired a "handful" of rounds during training.
Then again, I could be wrong. Life is cheap over there, maybe it is in the budget to lose a few due to ND.
I get a kick out of these threads.
Spend some time in the .mil. You'll get 24/7 exposure to dangerous firearms handling. I was flagged every day several times at a minimum by loaded guns. Big deal. Life goes on. Only one person ended up shot by accident.
We used to dry fire at each other in the barracks for sight picture training via orders from the Drill's.
I thank you for your service but disagree with the methods.
I feel that muzzle discipline is a courtesy thing on top of a safety issue.
But, I can't think of a reason to have the finger on the trigger unless you're shooting or about to shoot (rifle shouldered, etc.)
That one guy that got shot was one guy too many.
Just sayin' . . .
I didnt serve for you, no need for the thanks.
stuffs different when your on the other side. very easy to take shots at photos, take things out of context and comment on other armies where we don't know what their parade stances are. no doubt those mags are empty also.
what do you expect when they do this?
probably a dry fire range. no holes in target, buildings in backround, no berm, target is old and raggard, etc.
I had some old .mil photos on my facebook with a bunch of us in the woods at Drum. One of the guys had his finger in the trigger guard in a photo. non mil friend makes comment about finger on the trigger. only a person that wasnt in would do that. it's a douchy move thats foolish to comment on it. clearly not an area with ammo in it.
I dont personally put my fingers on triggers in photos. i also dont do it until im about to fire. But at the same time I have enough control over my hands to be confident that I wouldnt pull the trigger by accident if I had my finger on it, especially in a parade photo. short of running through the woods and tripping, i suspect I wouldnt fire it by accident.
I've seen several NDs in my day, and never once did the person that did it say they pulled it by accident. they thought it was empty and pulled the trigger intentionally for whatever reason. a few down range (I think this clear lets check... bang), a few in a clearing barrel (Is this empty? bang), and another with a person aiming a gun at a person when they thought it was empty when it turned out it wasn't.
So, all those PLA soldiers are in the same exact stance. I suspect that the stance includes the trigger finger on the trigger. horrifying to some, the norm for others. the .mil has a very ammo sterile environment, so it's typically not as horrific risk wise as it looks.
I know the way I was trained they put zero emphasis on trigger on finger / not flagging people. Sure, we avoided it, but it wasn't burned into us until OEF/OIF got really going. From the videos I've seen of a more modern basic (say 2005+), they have been teaching soldiers to clear all the time and not flag each other and trigger finger discipline all as soon as they are handed the rifle.
Go look at some WWII photos - the most badass soldiers this country has ever seen. You'll be mortified by the firearm handling. some of it is laughably bad. But thats just how it was. They knew the risks. Take another badass from the same war, GEN Patton. He sat down range in between target stands WHILE he taught the firing range. He said he wanted to know what it was like to be shot at and wanted to hear how the bullets sounded when they flew past him. Thats how it was. His superior knew about it and no discipline action was taken. Not all shooting is like the NRA hand book. wide spectrum of whats the norm all over the world and has continue to get better as time goes on.
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ToddDubya
NES Member
what do you expect when they do this?
That guy has no eye or ear protection!
Okay, I take it back. Sorry . . .
Some of this seems like an unnecessary risk, but I've never served. I guess that's why my Dad told me not to go into the armed services.
I just make the stuff that soldiers use to get the enemy and keep safe.
what do you expect when they do this?
Wonder how he managed to pull that duty.
Disciple problem child?
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
Everybody's experience in the .mil is different.
With that said, after 7 years in, Nat. Guard and 82d Airborne, artillery, staff, mortar, and light infantry, stateside and combat, in training or out, I never once had a leader (officer or enlisted) that tolerated lax trigger discipline. Never once.
Getting swept is different; it's never bothered me. In fact, it's very difficult for a platoon to go patrolling and NOT have folks getting swept, unless you can guarantee that half your soldiers will be lefties.
But trigger discipline? Always.
With that said, after 7 years in, Nat. Guard and 82d Airborne, artillery, staff, mortar, and light infantry, stateside and combat, in training or out, I never once had a leader (officer or enlisted) that tolerated lax trigger discipline. Never once.
Getting swept is different; it's never bothered me. In fact, it's very difficult for a platoon to go patrolling and NOT have folks getting swept, unless you can guarantee that half your soldiers will be lefties.
But trigger discipline? Always.
It's all about leadership. E2/E3 dench wasn't going to make safety calls on weapons on higher ranking soldiers when there was no ammo involved. E4 dench would. But this is not a lower enlisted area. the 1SG down should be all over people for trigger fingers but it just wasn't the case.
When I look back at my redeployment years in the guard i scratch my head.
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Weapons safety rule #3 in the USMC: "Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire." It was stressed routinely.
I worked the rifle and pistol ranges at MCAS Yuma for over a year. Thousands of Marines went through my ranges. Never had a single ND.
dcmdon
NES Member
I've never been in the military. I have no delusions of grandeur, I'm a husband and a dad who likes to shoot.
So last year, I took a couse at Academi/Blackwater. It was a 2 day carbine course. There were 8 of us in the course. Me, a dentist, an IT guy and 5 Academi guys going over to Afghanistan on a personal security detail assignment,who were there to freshen their skills after a couple of months in teh US. Most of these guys had been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as places like Somalia. One instructor lost both of his legs from the knee down to an IED. There was a lot of experience in that room.
In contrast, all of my practical shooting experience is IDPA/USPSA, which is very safety focused not quite as dangerous.
At one point during a team drill, we were stacked up in a doorway and I accidentally swept the very experienced Academi guy in front of me's legs with my muzzle. He didn't notice, but being a safety freak I approached him afterwards and apologized. He asked me if I had my finger off the trigger, I said yes. He asked me if my safety was on, I said yes.
Then he smiled at me and said "No problem man. Big boy rules here".
i was astonished.
One other thing. The finger off the trigger protocol is barely 25 years old. Look at any picture from WWII or even Vietnam and fingers are almost always on the trigger.
So last year, I took a couse at Academi/Blackwater. It was a 2 day carbine course. There were 8 of us in the course. Me, a dentist, an IT guy and 5 Academi guys going over to Afghanistan on a personal security detail assignment,who were there to freshen their skills after a couple of months in teh US. Most of these guys had been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as places like Somalia. One instructor lost both of his legs from the knee down to an IED. There was a lot of experience in that room.
In contrast, all of my practical shooting experience is IDPA/USPSA, which is very safety focused not quite as dangerous.
At one point during a team drill, we were stacked up in a doorway and I accidentally swept the very experienced Academi guy in front of me's legs with my muzzle. He didn't notice, but being a safety freak I approached him afterwards and apologized. He asked me if I had my finger off the trigger, I said yes. He asked me if my safety was on, I said yes.
Then he smiled at me and said "No problem man. Big boy rules here".
i was astonished.
One other thing. The finger off the trigger protocol is barely 25 years old. Look at any picture from WWII or even Vietnam and fingers are almost always on the trigger.
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When were you in the Marines? I think the following is probably true. I was in the Army in 1967.
dcmdon
NES Member
And I just did the math. 25 years only gets you back to 1988.
Its probably more like 35 years. When I was doing "action shooting" back in the late 80s, the straight finger protocol was definitely in effect.
Its probably more like 35 years. When I was doing "action shooting" back in the late 80s, the straight finger protocol was definitely in effect.
cbrxx
NES Member
Don't matter, I think they are allowed to shoot anyone they want, for any reason over there.
shotgunwilly870
NES Member
I'm not going to out the store that did this but I was in a local shop doing a transfer, a store employee who was handling the transfer picked up the gun (Intratec 22) swept me and the buyer then aimed it at a wall across the store and pulled the trigger! Not once checking the chamber or asking if he may dry fire it, I alerted the store owner and he was not too happy about it, don't trust anyone accidents happen I don't give a shit if its loaded or not we are all taught to treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
You hit the nail on the head. There is no sense in teaching firearms safety if the troops never get any ammo. When they eventually go into battle, they get ammo and just shoot everything in sight, friend and foe. No big deal with their supply of "cannon fodder".
