transfer info needed, in simple terms

[SKS Ray]

A friend of mine, who like myself is a C&R holder, wants to sell me his M1 Carbine. He bought the rifle a while back but the dealer/seller wouldn't accept his C&R license and made him go through the regular background check, fill out a form, etc. Now, since we are both C&R holders, can he just log the rifle out of his book and I log it into mine and we exchange license copies, or does he need to pick up an FA10 form and go through the mailing it in process, etc.?
Note here: were both Mass residents and so is the dealer who he originally got the rifle from.

One more question. I have a Yugo SKS that I bought from Carl at Four Seasons before I got my C&R license. Its logged in my book on a seperate page that I have for C&R eligible firearms that I bought before getting my C&R license. If I sell this rifle in the classifieds section, do I have to sell it to another C&R holder, or sell it through an 01 FFL dealer?

I know this info might have been covered here somewhere before, but reading cut and pasted sections of laws and post after post makes my head spin because the Mass laws are so FUBARed.

 

[JonJ]

You buy it, he logs out of his, you log it into yours, he mails in the FA10. An FA10 must be done.
You can sell any of your firearms to anyone who is legally entitled to posses them. Just because it's logged in your book doesn't mean that you have to sell it to a C&R holder. Of course you have to log it out when you sell it.
When you have a C&R the process for buying and selling is the same as if you didn't have one.

 

[SKS Ray]

You buy it, he logs out of his, you log it into yours, he mails in the FA10. An FA10 must be done.
You can sell any of your firearms to anyone who is legally entitled to posses them. Just because it's logged in your book doesn't mean that you have to sell it to a C&R holder. Of course you have to log it out when you sell it.
When you have a C&R the process for buying and selling is the same as if you didn't have one.

So theres no need to exchange licenses then since its the same as a regular transfer right?

I've had gun shop owners tell me for years when 2 people have C&R licenses, all they need to do is exchange copies and record the transfer in a book, and that there was no FA10 form needed. I was also told that rifles I bought by sending a C&R license to the company (say SOG for example) I was buying them from could only be sold to fellow C&R license holders.
The only rifle i've ever sold to a person was a modern production Saiga and I used an FA10 form, recorded the buyers Class A LTC info and sent it in within the required time. I've never sold any C&R guns to other collectors or regular license holders.

 

[JonJ]

Just take the C&R out of the mix for now, you're in MA
You buy the firearm in a personal sale, an FA10 has to be done.
Now you happen to have a C&R so if the firearm qualifies as a C&R you must log it into your book. If the seller happens to have a C&R he has to log it out.
Just because you purchased from a wholesaler/distributor does not mean you have to sell it to another C&R holder. You can sell it to whoever is lawfully able to buy it. For that person to receive it out of state, he would have to posses a C&R or transfer it via an 01FFL.

You did right when you sold the Saiga and you should follow the same for an in state C&R purchase/sale.

 

[KMaurer]

So theres no need to exchange licenses then since its the same as a regular transfer right?

I've had gun shop owners tell me for years when 2 people have C&R licenses, all they need to do is exchange copies and record the transfer in a book, and that there was no FA10 form needed. I was also told that rifles I bought by sending a C&R license to the company (say SOG for example) I was buying them from could only be sold to fellow C&R license holders.
The only rifle i've ever sold to a person was a modern production Saiga and I used an FA10 form, recorded the buyers Class A LTC info and sent it in within the required time. I've never sold any C&R guns to other collectors or regular license holders.

Advice on gun laws obtained from the average gun dealer is on a par with the advice obtained from the average street cop: following it will force you to jump through a lot of unnecessary hoops and still land you in jail.

Ken

 

[Wildweasel]

Just to make it clear, ANY Gun you buy/own needs to have an FA-10 filled out and submitted. there is no exemption for it being purchased on a C&R.
That is state law as I understand it. fines/jail for not having them registered.

 

[KMaurer]

A couple of qualifications to that to that. First it only applies to guns that are physically in the People's Republic of Massachusetts; any gun that you own and keep out of state doesn't have to have an FA-10 filed. Second, any guns that you bring with you when you move here don't require one either. Beyond that, if you get it here, file an FA-10 unless you buy it from a Massachusetts licensed dealer (who will do the paperwork).

Ken

 

[JonJ]

Advice on gun laws obtained from the average gun dealer is on a par with the advice obtained from the average street cop: following it wil (sic) force you to jumpt (sic) through a lot of unnecessary hoops while and still land you in jail.

Ken

Wow, I consider myself average...Couldn't you have said "below average"?
BTW: I pointed out your spelling mistakes

 

[Lynne]

If he didn't buy it on his C&R, why did he list it in his book? That's only for purchases made with the C&R. You only need to log it in if you use your C&R to buy it. Any gun purchased without the C&R does not need to be in your log book, even if it's a C&R gun.

Edited to add: You can sell your SKS to anyone, C&R holder or not, as long as they have the correct license, unless they live out of state. Then it goes thru an FFL.

 

[JonJ]

If he didn't buy it on his C&R, why did he list it in his book? That's only for purchases made with the C&R. You only need to log it in if you use your C&R to buy it.

He says he has it on a separate page. I'd say just to have some kind of a record of it. Not a bad idea.

 

[Lynne]

He says he has it on a separate page. I'd say just to have some kind of a record of it. Not a bad idea.

That's fine, but it doesn't belong in the same log book. Have a separate one for them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If he didn't buy it on his C&R, why did he list it in his book? That's only for purchases made with the C&R. You only need to log it in if you use your C&R to buy it. Any gun purchased without the C&R does not need to be in your log book, even if it's a C&R gun.

Lynne,

BATFE will take exception to that policy if they ever find out that this is what you are doing.

It is the PERSON who is Licensed as a C&R Holder, not the transaction. Although there are all sorts of people looking for loopholes to exploit, ALL C&R purchases/dispositions are supposed to be logged in the BB.

Also since the BB is supposed to be a chronology by date, BATFE will take a dim view of "separate pages" for some entries and not finding the entire book in proper sequence.

 

[Scrivener]

"Advice on gun laws obtained from the average gun dealer is on a par with the advice obtained from the average street cop: following it will force you to jump through a lot of unnecessary hoops and still land you in jail."

SO TRUE!

I saw three botched firearms license applications today. Two were contaminated by the cops telling the applicant what to put down; the third by a "family friend" who was a "retired court clerk."

The cops - who have NO business completing forms anyway - were too ignorant to realize what the penalties were for the convictions on the CORI printout; the clerk didn't realize that sealed records AREN'T where firearms are concerned.

As it is the applicant's signature on the form and responsibility for ensuring that the contents of are correct, saying "The desk clerk/sergeant/my Uncle Joe's chiropodist's friend told me to" is not an excuse, just evidence of further stupidity.

Still, it could be worse - they could have asked a dispatcher..........

 

[Admin]

"Advice on gun laws obtained from the average gun dealer is on a par with the advice obtained from the average street cop: following it will force you to jump through a lot of unnecessary hoops and still land you in jail."

SO TRUE!

I saw three botched firearms license applications today. Two were contaminated by the cops telling the applicant what to put down; the third by a "family friend" who was a "retired court clerk."

The cops - who have NO business completing forms anyway - were too ignorant to realize what the penalties were for the convictions on the CORI printout; the clerk didn't realize that sealed records AREN'T where firearms are concerned.

As it is the applicant's signature on the form and responsibility for ensuring that the contents of are correct, saying "The desk clerk/sergeant/my Uncle Joe's chiropodist's friend told me to" is not an excuse, just evidence of further stupidity.

Still, it could be worse - they could have asked a dispatcher..........

Scrivener,

I think you just set a record for most people thown under the bus in one post.

1. Gun Dealer
2. Street Cop
3. Retired Court Clerk
4. Desk Clerk
5. Sergeant
6. Uncle Joe's chiropodist

That post was an absolute pleasure to read.

 

[JonJ]

Scrivener,

I think you just set a record for most people thown under the bus in one post.

1. Gun Dealer
2. Street Cop
3. Retired Court Clerk
4. Desk Clerk
5. Sergeant
6. Uncle Joe's chiropodist

That post was an absolute pleasure to read.

Too bad he didn't include some of his incompetent cronies. It would have just about completed his list.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jon,

Don't let your skin wear too thin!

"You ain't no typical street cop" as they say! [And before Scrivener gives us his (sic), I know that it is poor English and double negative . . . it wasn't meant to be taken literally as written.]

You have a lot more knowledge about this than most chiefs and working LEOs that I have met or worked with/for.

So please don't get insulted or feel a need to defend every officer out there when any of us point out that the average officer really doesn't know the gun laws. When folks bitch about it to me, I just tell them two things:

- Ron Glidden's book is well over 300 pages, and that is only MA gun laws,

- The MGLs books when I first became a Special PO (1978) took about 1.5 shelves in the Selectmen's office. Last I looked it was >3 shelves!

Nobody has a right to really expect any street officer to know everything in all those books. Even lawyers have to refer to them to read and understand (hopefully) the various laws and how they apply.

Nobody can say that the legislature hasn't been "prolific" in creating laws over the past 28 years!

 

[JonJ]

Hell Len, my skin is pretty damn thick, no worry. Ignorant people are everywhere and I deal with them on a daily basis.
Scrivener, maybe if you put half the effort of your sickening sarcasm into a free handout or FAQ for gun owners and prospective gun owners everyone including the cops would benefit.

 

[Lynne]

Lynne,

BATFE will take exception to that policy if they ever find out that this is what you are doing.

It is the PERSON who is Licensed as a C&R Holder, not the transaction. Although there are all sorts of people looking for loopholes to exploit, ALL C&R purchases/dispositions are supposed to be logged in the BB.

Also since the BB is supposed to be a chronology by date, BATFE will take a dim view of "separate pages" for some entries and not finding the entire book in proper sequence.

Len, I understand that, but if you buy a rifle or a hand gun that happens to be listed, or considered a C&R, but you DO NOT use your C&R to buy it, do you STILL have to list it in your log? The rifle was purchased without the C&R because the FFL wouldn't take it. Is that still considered a C&R purchase? I don't think so. And, the separate pages should not be in the same log book - that's for C&R's only. If someone wants to keep a record of their firearms, by all means that's a great idea - but not in the same book, as I said in a later post.

 

[SKS Ray]

Also since the BB is supposed to be a chronology by date, BATFE will take a dim view of "separate pages" for some entries and not finding the entire book in proper sequence.

I found out about logging all C&R eligible guns after I started keeping C&R logs. Found it out from you folks here actually. Thats why I have my original page that i've logged every C&R purchase since I got the license, and a seperate page with dates and receipts still in order with listings of C&R eligible guns that I bought using my LTC before I got a C&R and its labeled as so at the top of the page. The guns on that page were all registered by the dealers who I bought them from. After finding out I needed to log all eligible guns, I added a seperate page rather than altering the first. Its done, its there, and its better than what most folks I know who have C&R licenses have.
Can you guys imagine how many license holders leave the auditor sitting there with a pounding headache while they try and explain and justify their collections because they didn't fully understand the laws?!?

 

[MikeD]

Len, I understand that, but if you buy a rifle or a hand gun that happens to be listed, or considered a C&R, but you DO NOT use your C&R to buy it, do you STILL have to list it in your log? The rifle was purchased without the C&R because the FFL wouldn't take it. Is that still considered a C&R purchase? I don't think so. And, the separate pages should not be in the same log book - that's for C&R's only. If someone wants to keep a record of their firearms, by all means that's a great idea - but not in the same book, as I said in a later post.

Lynne,

once you become a licensee, all c&r purchases have to be logged in..whether you used your c&r lic. or Ma. lic. to make the purchase.

 

[JonJ]

Len, I understand that, but if you buy a rifle or a hand gun that happens to be listed, or considered a C&R, but you DO NOT use your C&R to buy it, do you STILL have to list it in your log? The rifle was purchased without the C&R because the FFL wouldn't take it. Is that still considered a C&R purchase? I don't think so. And, the separate pages should not be in the same log book - that's for C&R's only. If someone wants to keep a record of their firearms, by all means that's a great idea - but not in the same book, as I said in a later post.

Even if you do NOT use your C&R license to acquire a C&R eligible firearm it MUST be logged.
Firearms that you acquired prior to becoming licensed do NOT get logged in. You should log it out though if you dispose of it with a notation that it was a prior acquisition.
As far as the "other" page, most people keep a loose leaf book so no harm no foul. It can be yanked out prior to an audit.

Disclaimer: Non-genius lawyer making this post.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Lynne, I'll try again.

- ALL C&Rs purchased/transfered/otherwise obtained while the PERSON is so licensed must be in the bound book.

- Any guns obtained BEFORE getting a C&R FFL do NOT get put in the BB until they get sold/disposed of.

It is the person who obtains the C&R FFL License that matters, you are signing on the dotted line that YOU will abide by the BATFE regs/laws. It's not whether or not you use your license to obtain a gun.

For instance, I have bought a Russian SKS and M1 Carbine (both C&R) from Four Seasons. FA-10s were required, LTC was required, BB entries by both of us was required. This would have been true if I didn't have my C&R FFL with me and bought the same guns from Carl as any normal citizen would have done. That's because I AM a "Licensee" (only as far as the Feds are concerned) and agreed to be bound by certain rules/regs that citizens don't have to follow.

Likewise, when I sell my P22, I have to hand the buyer that pamphlet on handguns . . . why? Because BATFE SAYS SO! It says "all licensees" are required to provide them to every buyer of a handgun. So, even though I am only a C&R FFL and will sell a non-C&R handgun, I must comply with the law/regs.

 

[SKS Ray]

I got one for ya... (i'm using this type of rifle just for example because I saw one on Empire Arms' site that it wasn't C&R eligible untill Jan 2006) Supose you bought a Chinese Mosin Nagant that wasn't C&R eligible the time you bought it, but became so a year or so later while you still owned it. The only time it gets logged in your book is when and if its disposed of?
I heard that all C&R eligible firearms in your possesion at the time of an audit had to be recorded and accounted for. Hence another reason for my second page. If a BATF agent during an audit says "You don't need to list those" i'm ok as they're not on my main page. If he says "Those need to be recorded" i'm still ok because iyts still a page in my book with documentation.
:::sigh::: Gun Laws.... Heres where a headache Smilie would come in handy!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Right, if a gun you own becomes C&R while you own it, you don't "book it" until you dispose of it.

Personally I have a computer spreadsheet with all sorts of info on every gun I own (or owned), what I paid for it, when, from whom, description, S/N, date of mfr, etc. But that is for my own purposes, not for BATFE. However, in the most unlikely event they are back-tracing a gun and I was asked where/when/who, I actually have the info documented.

 

[Scrivener]

"Scrivener, maybe if you put half the effort of your sickening sarcasm into a free handout or FAQ for gun owners and prospective gun owners everyone including the cops would benefit."

As Len has already pointed out - and you well know - Glidden's book runs 300+ pages and is updated on a near-annual basis. Do employ your expertise and tell us how that can be distilled into "a free handout or FAQ" - I'd LOVE to see it.

Then again, a certain minimal effort by "gun owners and prospective gun owners everyone including the cops" would greatly reduce the most common errors. People who don't bother to even complete the application on their own and just appear at the station expecting the police to do it for them deserve what they get. Those who know full well they've been in court but think they can deny it because they weren't PUT in jail, even though the question asks simply if you've ever been to court, are equally undeserving of your sympathy.

Certain cops - like the "licensing officer" who unlawfully seized an AKM from an LTC/B holder claiming "he wasn't licensed" for it - make NO effort to actually verify their assertions. The "licensing officer" in question had NO copy of Glidden's book OR the MGL and got all defensive and sulky when I read him the conditions of an LTC/B. Had he removed his head from his rectum and actually CHECKED the law BEFORE going on a power play, he wouldn't have put himself in an indefensible position.

Want more? How about the "Firearms Officer" who, declaring he "knew all about the new gun law" seized an AKM from an LTC/A holder on the assinine premise that "all assault weapons are now illegal."? Or the licensing officer who falsely tells applicants:

1. You cannot legally hold both an LTC and an FID card; and

2. If denied, you cannot reapply for a period of 1 year?

So, resident defender of LEOs and the common weal, do tell us how - and WHY - these people should be protected from their own inertia?

We await your determination...........

 

[SKS Ray]

I might be stepping out of bounds here and don't wanna ruffle any feathers. I'm sure Len will tell me if i'm out of line but I just wanted to use this to avoid seeing people arguing with each other.

Thats all, my original question was answered a few posts ago.

 

[JonJ]

So, resident defender of LEOs and the common weal, do tell us how - and WHY - these people should be protected from their own inertia?

We await your determination...........

Why? Because it benefits all of us. What sense is it to belittle and berate someone because of their lack of knowledge on a subject? Especially a subject as important as this.
You make valid points in the examples above but if those gun owners had the right information, it may not have happened. The officers were wrong and so were the gun owners for letting it happen.
Our job is to educate not put down. We want more people to join us in our sport, we don't want to alienate. If you're so blind to see that, then so be it.
Try being a useful member of society.

Sorry, Milsurps 4 Me. I'm done on this subject.

 

[SKS Ray]

No need for apologies JonJ, you're a moderator and i'm still a newbie here. I've got lots of reading to do and learning still and this is definitely the place to do it. I hadn't seen that smilie used yet and figured it just kinda fit because we should be arguing with the gun grabbers in Massachusetts rather than with each other.

 

[Lynne]

Okay guys...I should have known to believe you rather than someone I spoke to on the phone from the BATF. I don't remember when it was, maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I called and asked them that very question. The gentleman I spoke with said if the C&R isn't used to purchase the firearm, then it didn't need to be logged in. As it turns out, I didn't buy what prompted the call to the BATF so it's moot for me, but it's still good to know.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have seen and heard many a story of BATFE telling the wrong info. Just like calling IRS hotline for tax info!

BATFE cautions us (in writing in one of their books) that ALL questions should ONLY be sent to the Director, Technical Branch and that ONLY their letters in response can be relied upon as gospel.

I suspect that is why they created the FAQ in the back of one of the BATFE books.