Tranferring AR Lower

BRIGUY

BRIGUY

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Hi , I purchased a stripped AR lower , the dealer said it did not require a FA10 because it was not a firearm , but we did all the other paperwork involved including the federal form. If I were to sell this lower , how do I go about transferring it to somebody else. Thanks
 
Make sure that he's not a prohibited person, then sell it (as long as you or anyone else has never assembled it into a rifle). Federal laws apply, but no state law applies to the transfer.
 
O.K., so now if you buy parts, say a few months down the road and turn it into a Ma compliant (Natch!) rifle, What form do you use, I assume it would be the FA-10, just check off the registering box?

See, this goes back to what I was asking a month ago and I was getting "expert" advice here as to the fact it had to have a barrel and other stuff, now here is a registered DEALER saying what I had thought all along, that it was NOT a FIREARM yet and requires no Ma transfer or anything, yet.
 
vellnueve said:
Make sure that he's not a prohibited person, then sell it (as long as you or anyone else has never assembled it into a rifle). Federal laws apply, but no state law applies to the transfer.
Click to expand...

So there is no form required to tranfer this to someone else. As long as they have the proper licsense .
 
Kicker96FS said:
O.K., so now if you buy parts, say a few months down the road and turn it into a Ma compliant (Natch!) rifle, What form do you use, I assume it would be the FA-10, just check off the registering box?

See, this goes back to what I was asking a month ago and I was getting "expert" advice here as to the fact it had to have a barrel and other stuff, now here is a registered DEALER saying what I had thought all along, that it was NOT a FIREARM yet and requires no Ma transfer or anything, yet.
Click to expand...

What?

A stripped lower does not require an FA-10 because it is not a rifle or firearm under MA law. Once you assemble it to a configuration where it can be readily made to fire, it requires that an FA-10 be filed.

BRIGUY said:
So there is no form required to tranfer this to someone else. As long as they have the proper licsense .
Click to expand...

Correct, and in fact you can make the argument that no license is required (but I would NOT recommend that) Remember that federal laws apply.
 
Clearly you don't have to file an FA10 for just a lower reciever transaction... and, as mentioned above, in Massachusetts, where this is not considered a firearm or rifle, there does not appear to be any requirement that either the seller or buyer have any type of firearm license to conduct the transaction.

The only law which appears to apply is the Federal Law which requires the party not be a "prohibited person". The question is, what do you do to determine whether a party is a "prohibited person" or not? In my opinion, doing and documenting nothing is a serious violation of Federal Law.

By itself, putting wording on the bill of sale that the parties sign that states neither is a "prohibited person" is pretty lame.

If I were either buying or selling a lower reciever in a private sale, I would insist on copies of each parties LTC be exchanged along with the bill of sale. To me this would demonstrate that you have done your due diligence and cover both parties.
 
z0mbi said:
I think he was just explaining that FFLs cannot transfer in handguns. They can certainly transfer in lower receivers.
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Thats not what he said, in fact he said they can not. (be sold without a FFL to FFL transfer)

This is a quote from the above quoted link:
The FFL's assertion that any non-handgun is ok to transfer is hogwash, however. Out of state FFL transfers are ONLY for rifles and shotguns. If the firearm is anything other than a complete rifle or shotgun, an out of state FFL cannot transfer it to you. This point was reciently clarified by ATF.
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My FFL disagreed but I backed off on a decent deal. If it is NOT a handgun OR a rifle, then the state has no say, you can NOT (the state) have it both ways.
 
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vellnueve said:
Make sure that he's not a prohibited person, then sell it (as long as you or anyone else has never assembled it into a rifle). Federal laws apply, but no state law applies to the transfer.
Click to expand...

Not exactly correct.

To sell the naked lower you'd have to do it via an FFL approved transfer.

Private sales of lowers cannot occur via an FA 10, as it isn't yet a firearm.
 
Kicker96FS said:
Thats not what he said, in fact he said they can not. (be sold without a FFL to FFL transfer)
Click to expand...

No, that's not exactly what I was saying in that post. I was pointing out a clarification that ATF had made last fall when the new 4473 forms came out, which was that private sales of stripped lowers between residents of two different states were forbidden by federal law. However, if both parties are residents of the same state, this technicality doesn't apply and private sale is ok (as long as you follow state laws, which is what has been discussed for MA in this thread).

szaino said:
The only law which appears to apply is the Federal Law which requires the party not be a "prohibited person". The question is, what do you do to determine whether a party is a "prohibited person" or not? In my opinion, doing and documenting nothing is a serious violation of Federal Law.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that 18 USC 44 § 922(d) only requires that you do not sell to anyone who you know or have reasonable cause to believe is a prohibited person. In other words, you don't have to do a strip search and family history. As long as no red flags appear, you can complete the transfer. In MA this means that as long as the buyer has a valid LTC/FID and you have no other reason to believe they are prohibited, you are likely more than satisfying federal law.
 
Cross-X said:
To sell the naked lower you'd have to do it via an FFL approved transfer.
Click to expand...

??? Now you've confused me. Are you asserting that one cannot privately transfer stripped lowers between MA residents without transferring through an FFL? I agree an FA-10 transfer is incorrect, but as long as the buyer is not federal prohibited, what's wrong with just handing over the cash and walking away with the lower?
 
OK, now that is cleared up somewhat. now back to the original question. Lets say I buy a stripped lower from an out of state FFL DEALER. It is NOT a firearm yet, right? SO he does the mandated Fed. paperwork, I should owe the state nothing until I or someone else (in this ma**h*** state) turn in into a firearm, right?

It should be no different than buying the WHOLE RIFLE from him, this FFL dealer, KTP, Cabela's, etc. NO FFL transfer, just a FA-10 when I get back (because that would be a compleat rifle) Right? [horse]
 
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Kicker96FS said:
OK, now that is cleared up somewhat. now back to the original question. Lets say I buy a stripped lower from an out of state FFL DEALER. It is NOT a firearm yet, right? SO he does the mandated Fed. paperwork, I should owe the state nothing until I or someone else (in this ma**h*** state) turn in into a firearm, right?
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As far as the state is concerned. However, the clarification from ATF I was discussing in the other thread said that you cannot buy a stripped lower from an out-of-state FFL per federal law, not state law. You can only buy rifles and shotguns from out of state FFLs, and a stripped lower is neither of those two things.

So, the end result is that you can only buy a stripped lower from a resident or FFL of your own state.
 
jdubois said:
As far as the state is concerned. However, the clarification from ATF I was discussing in the other thread said that you cannot buy a stripped lower from an out-of-state FFL per federal law, not state law. You can only buy rifles and shotguns from out of state FFLs, and a stripped lower is neither of those two things.

So, the end result is that you can only buy a stripped lower from a resident or FFL of your own state.
Click to expand...



OK, Thats where the attached buffer tube comes in, the Fed's OK that for out of state, but it STILL is not a firearm so there is no state requirments. See? The FFL dealers find their own way around the Fed rules or maybe I should say, "A way to keep everyone happy".
 
jdubois said:
??? Now you've confused me. Are you asserting that one cannot privately transfer stripped lowers between MA residents without transferring through an FFL? I agree an FA-10 transfer is incorrect, but as long as the buyer is not federal prohibited, what's wrong with just handing over the cash and walking away with the lower?
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The feds consider it to be a firearm.
 
Kicker96FS said:
OK, Thats where the attached buffer tube comes in, the Fed's OK that for out of state, but it STILL is not a firearm so there is no state requirments. See? The FFL dealers find their own way around the Fed rules or maybe I should say, "A way to keep everyone happy".
Click to expand...

There are three criteria to determine if it is a rifle for the purposes of 18 USC 44. 1) It needs to be designed to be fired from the shoulder, 2) It needs to be able to use an explosive to fire a bullet (and only one bullet) for each pull of the trigger, and 3) it needs to have a rifled bore.

Attaching a buffer tube sort of lamely attempts to satisfy the first criteria, but does nothing to satisfy the other two. Therefor I think ATF would look pretty negatively at that practice.
 
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No, attaching the buffer tube means it is not a HAND gun. Thus makeing it ok to sell to out of state buyers. Lame? maybe, but it is being done and accepted.
 
Kicker96FS said:
No, attaching the buffer tube means it is not a HAND gun. Thus makeing it ok to sell to out of state buyers. Lame? maybe, but it is being done and accepted.
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No. This is exactly what ATF clarified and put an end to last fall. The law (18 USC 44 § 922(b)(3)) states that out of state purchases are ok only for "the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun". Note very closely that it does not say "anything other than a handgun".

If the FFL you were talking to is stating it any other way, they have not been reading their ATF notices and are going to land themselves in deep water.
 
jdubois said:
As far as the state is concerned. However, the clarification from ATF I was discussing in the other thread said that you cannot buy a stripped lower from an out-of-state FFL per federal law, not state law. You can only buy rifles and shotguns from out of state FFLs, and a stripped lower is neither of those two things.

So, the end result is that you can only buy a stripped lower from a resident or FFL of your own state.
Click to expand...

As far as Mass is concerned, I agree 100% with this statement.
 

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