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Another one in the making
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/2...sues-for-alleged-harassment-after-firing.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/2...sues-for-alleged-harassment-after-firing.html
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Terror Attack in London
- Thread starter rwl1955
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pastera
NES Member
The pope has little sway over majority of Christianity so your assertion isn't exactly valid.
The real issue is the basic tenants of the faith - the New Testament can be boiled down to Love Thy Neighbor. Nowhere is a Christian allowed to tax, enslave or kill because a person will not convert.
Islam is based on submission to Muhammad's Quran which allows for and encourages Muslims to tax, enslave and kill the kafir.
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Debating theology on NES will get us nowhere. My point is that most denominations of most religions have some sort of central authority that establishes doctrine; Islam doesn't.
Put it this way. Say you've got two demagogues preaching a destructive ideology that's out of their religion's mainstream. One is a Catholic priest, the other a Muslim imam. Catholicism has a mechanism by which the priest can get smacked down, Islam doesn't. So weirdo imams can flourish in Islam in a way that they can't in other religions.
That's my take, anyway.
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When Muslims go to mosque they prostrate themselves in submission to God aka Allah. The whole religion is based on conquest. Love thy infidel neighbor is not really a tenant of Islam. Read Islamic conquest of India. it makes Hitler look like an amateur.
Id be curious to hear a little supposition based on historical theory in regards to these moderate muslims we all have in our lives. Personally I dont feel they are waiting for the right moment to rise up and strike us down as perhaps some would have you believe. But who actually thinks they are going to defend the non believers and fend off the radical elements of said religion if and when the time comes?
Hell forget history. Lets look at right now. How well do moderate muslims fare in most countries of origin? Can someone show me how well strength of conviction for peaceful islam fares over there? Without making anyone too ill on this fine sunday morning? Now thats a challenge...
Hell forget history. Lets look at right now. How well do moderate muslims fare in most countries of origin? Can someone show me how well strength of conviction for peaceful islam fares over there? Without making anyone too ill on this fine sunday morning? Now thats a challenge...
My guess? The vast majority of Muslims are just like the vast majority of everyone else: their religion is a relatively minor part of their life, something incidental that they're born into and identify with, but which isnt very important to them day to day. There's a reason Christian church attendance surges at Easter and Christmas; mosques in most of the world (outside the Middle East, I'm thinking) are likely similar.
Even in the Middle East, my guess is that mosque attendance is likely driven more by habit and peer pressure than sheer religious devotion.
Guys with such a casual religious attitude certainly WILL NOT fend off the radicals within their own religion. Which, in my view, simply makes them human.
Naturally, my guesses fly in the face of the NES worldview, in which every single Muslim is a mindlessly devout ravager bent on global domination. So YMMV.
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No religion in the Middle East is the most important thing in their lives. The mosque is where you go to settle disputes, learn to read and it is the center of their culture. It's an Islamic culture not a Arabic, Persian, or so on. This is why there are so many people named Mohammad and most flags have green in them-Islamic colors. It's ingrained at the lowest levels. Why do you think relatively new groups like ISIS and al queda attract 10's of thousands of recruits?
Go to a Muslim majority country and try and open a church. Question the Koran. See what happens. This is an over 1000 year culture that keeps growing and expanding. Pakistan is a good example of this. So is Egypt. And these are supposed to be some of the most moderate Islamic countries. Do you think these people are going to give up all this history once they set foot in the western world?
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We can agree to disagree.
But ask yourself: a "cafeteria Muslim" in Dearborn or Jakarta or Delhi follows the same faith as one from KSA, yet mosque attendance is much lower. If Muslims have other ways to settle disputes and learn to read, they'll use those just like everyone else. So, to me, that presents a good argument that culture trumps religion.
mibro
NES Member
This is normalcy bias. Whether they are completely observant or not, the Quran tells Muslims how to live every moment of every day, right down to how to brush their teeth and bang their wife. [The Talmud is somewhat similar by the way as Islam and Judaism have some interesting overlaps. Christians are infidels to both Muslims and Orthodox Jews but they do not necessarily consider each other so.]
The message from other countries could not be clearer. Muslims are sweet little choirboys when they are a small minority but as their numbers grow so do their demands.
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Ha! You don't understand Islam.
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Tsarnaev brothers are a perfect case. They weren't born into crazy like some Palestinians. The older dude wanted to pursue boxing dreams, the younger was doing pretty well in college. When the older brother became disappointment with broken dreams of becoming a pro here ... boom, he falls back onto goat-****er blame and used it to justify to pour out his bitterness and resentment. I don't think that it was all political, he was disappointed and his culture offers some great way out.
Islam is not religion of peace. Cultural or devoted, it's a ticking time bomb. Islam + desperate head = snakbar, plain and simple.
I'm not out to convince anyone. Post 306 asked about suppositions, and I gave mine. And since neither of us is a Muslim living in KSA, that means your guess is as good as mine.
You're more than welcome to disagree. But I know of nothing about Islam that would make it any more monolithic than Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Nazism, or anything else: there will always be a small, rabid minority and a vast majority that's just going along to get by, fit in, and avoid notice. People are people, no matter where they come from, and I think it's safer to assume they'll behave like people rather than automatons.
You're more than welcome to disagree. But I know of nothing about Islam that would make it any more monolithic than Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Nazism, or anything else: there will always be a small, rabid minority and a vast majority that's just going along to get by, fit in, and avoid notice. People are people, no matter where they come from, and I think it's safer to assume they'll behave like people rather than automatons.
mibro
NES Member
With that kind of radical egalitarianism you could be a teacher in the public school system. You'd fit right in.
That was the answer I was looking for. And because we are dealing with fellow humans you choose to take the same liberal path and refuse to actually look closer to what we are dealing with here. Id assume you feel our human pedophiles, rapists, and murderers should be dealt with in a similar compassionate manner?
Its tough have cake and eat it too. Unless of course your a hypocrite...
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![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Where did that come from? People generally avoid condemning each other; that's hardly groundbreaking science, and pointing it out doesn't make me a hypocrite. But we're discussing religious beliefs here, not criminal behaviors; a rapist deserves punishment no matter what religion he subscribes to. I'm not sure why you're linking them, though I'm sure somebody will try to make a comment about how all Muslims are rapists. Feel free...
It's an imperfect world, but its human nature. Unlike some of you, I don't expect humans to be anything but human. Perhaps it's your expectations that get so many of you so frustrated.
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BINGO!
Jason Flare
NES Member
Picton, what you seem to be missing is that the Koran calls for Jihad, or said another way, it calls for the most recent attack in London, Orlando nightclub, San Bernardino, Fort Hood, 911 and hundreds of other attacks.
Most Imams of the past interpreted the Koran for their followers and tweaked the message to something less violent than the printed word.
Today the Koran's message is available to everyone on the Internet. We're in an age of information and the information available demands Jihad.
The Koran is not the teachings of Jesus and being brought up a Christian I found it hard to grasp that a religion could exist that promoted the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Most Imams of the past interpreted the Koran for their followers and tweaked the message to something less violent than the printed word.
Today the Koran's message is available to everyone on the Internet. We're in an age of information and the information available demands Jihad.
The Koran is not the teachings of Jesus and being brought up a Christian I found it hard to grasp that a religion could exist that promoted the opposite of what Jesus taught.
If you think of yourself as a Christian, you'll get mad when I bring up the tired old comment on how the Old Testament says you're supposed to annihilate people too. So I'll say it right away: I'M NOT TRYING TO DRAW SOME KIND OF MORAL EQUIVALENCY HERE. I'm not saying the Bible and the Koran are the same.
So with that out of the way, here's the thing: remember, I think every religion has its moderates and its fundamentalists. I think there are always a lot more moderates. And I'd imagine many, many Muslims pay lip service to those jihad verses. Or they just ignore them, the same way so many Christians refuse to turn the other cheek.
Take another look at the Pew list I posted. The Koran prescribes mosque attendance, but even in responding countries in the Middle East, 65% is the highest level of adherence to that commandment. The HIGHEST. And that was in the Midfle East; almost everywhere else outside sub-Saharan Africa was lower, especially in Europe. Again, the culture trumps the religion. If you skim through the rest of the study, you'll see similar data.
Data. Not opinions.
The stubborn NES insistence that all Muslims are identically motivated and believe identical things is just like any other generalization: overly simple. The truth, unfortunately, is more complex.
Now that I check again, the data I posted is even more forceful: of the 65% of Jordanians that go to mosque at all, only a little over a quarter do so more than once a week. And the Koran says a good Muslim has to go daily, no?
If all Muslims were violent, and if mosque attendance predicted terrorism, we'd be seeing more terrorists from Ghana, Guinea-Bissau, and Djibouti. And we're not.
If all Muslims were violent, and if mosque attendance predicted terrorism, we'd be seeing more terrorists from Ghana, Guinea-Bissau, and Djibouti. And we're not.
Please take note of the strawman. Never did I say or even imply that both criminals and muslims were anything more than human too and yet links as subtle they may be were instantly drawn. This is why you cannot educate or even have rational discussion when simple facts continue to be twisted...
Jason Flare
NES Member
All Muslims aren't violent, only those following the Koran.
You're proving my point. All the rest are what I called "cafeteria Muslims," and probably have no clearer an understanding of the Koran than the average Christian has of the Bible.
An anecdote: my students overwhelmingly identify themselves as catholic. But the vast majority doesn't even knowsomething as basic as the difference between Catholics and protestants, and they generally have no clue what a "sacrament" is. And they've all been through CCD.
Guaranteed those kids would still call themselves Catholic, and who am I to say they're not?
plenty of self-identifying Muslims probably couldn't quote more than six or seven verses from the Koran, but then I'm not the one making silly statements about how "religion is everything to a Muslim" or "the whole religion is based on conquest."
And Im honestly not trying to attack you. Just pointing out how biased and flawed your subject view is. If you reread what I wrote and remove yourself from what I said. Use current and past history for more than justifiying your stated position I feel then you should understand what I said. Its quite clear and direct using the correct and exact words to convey my messege. I dont think others are struggling with understanding. agree or not. Perhaps this alone says something?
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