Terror Attack in London

[Picton]

I agree it can probably not be stopped but ....To me it gets to the if it quacks like a duck...Who cares if its 49% vs 51% of the population. just a little easier to keep track of the f n wack jobs. Not an easy fix.

No real diff between 49 and 51 percent, sure. But the actual difference is between 4.8 and 51. That decimal point matters.

Fewer than five out of every hundred, vs 51 out of every hundred: that's a significant difference, surely.

plus, even if something quacks like a duck, the Constitution still says the quacker gets due process. For that matter, so does the duck.

 

[whalerman69]

No real diff between 49 and 51 percent, sure. But the actual difference is between 4.8 and 51. That decimal point matters.

Fewer than five out of every hundred, vs 51 out of every hundred: that's a significant difference, surely.

plus, even if something quacks like a duck, the Constitution still says the quacker gets due process.

It just takes the one...

 

[Picton]

It just takes the one...

"It's for the children..."

"If it just saves one life..."

Cliches are fun. But if you want to move someplace where the Bill of Rights doesn't exist, knock yourself out.

 

[10thSFFD]

Same source says England and Wales are 4.8% Muslim. What are we talking about here?

Last census was conducted in 2011:

 

[Picton]

Exactly.

 

[whalerman69]

"It's for the children..."

"If it just saves one life..."

Cliches are fun. But if you want to move someplace where the Bill of Rights doesn't exist, knock yourself out.

So the thread started about this one particular terrorist attack that after the fact this guy had a "history" that had they followed up on may have been adverted. Now you change it into a bill of rights, cliches fun stuff...Knock your self out on your brilliance...

 

[not new guy]

It doesn't take a majority to bring the system down. They already have 1.8% on the 3%ers.

 

[Picton]

So the thread started about this one particular terrorist attack that after the fact this guy had a "history" that had they followed up on may have been adverted. Now you change it into a bill of rights, cliches fun stuff...Knock your self out on your brilliance...

I'm not brilliant. But I'm also not the one who claimed it was possible, or even desirable, to live under the kind of government that would be able to stop every single truck attack, such as the London one.

Think about it. Some posters in this and countless similar threads are claiming it's possible for a government with "the balls to do what needs to be done" to conduct surveillance of terror cells, provide ironclad oversight of that surveillance, do 24/7 overwatch on all 50,000 guys out there with "history," and then somehow head off these crimes. And that it's worthwhile to empower the government to do these things, because "it just takes the one..."

All while maintaining personal liberties, like the ones we enjoy under the BoR, in an environment where said government can be trusted not to abuse these capabilities.

Well, I think that notion is a big f-ing laugh.

The very last thing I want is a government that says it can guarantee my safety from terrorists, "lone wolf" or otherwise. I don't buy it, in the first place; I don't think it can be done, and I think folks who say that it can are either liars, demagogues, or ignorant. I also reject the idea that borders, especially in a country as large as ours, can ever be "sealed;" trying to do that, I think, is a waste of time and money.

Plus, I know a lot of people from backgrounds different than mine. I like them, value their opinions, and enjoy their food. So I think diversity is beneficial, but then again I didn't grow up in New England; YMMV. In any case, it's not 1956 and we're not on "Leave it to Beaver," and we never will be again.

So going forward, what do we do about truck terror attacks? Beats me. Maintain situational awareness, carry a gun, and get some training; all good ideas. But not foolproof. At the end of the day, you might just have to jump off a bridge to save yourself from a terrorist. Or, hell, your number might come up and you might not make it.

But living in a fearful environment with an "abundance of caution" because "it just takes one," and accepting a more intrusive government on the flimsy excuse that I'll somehow be "safer" is not what I want out of life. I'd rather remain as free as possible and run some risks on my own, thanks.

 

[10thSFFD]

So going forward, what do we do about truck terror attacks? Beats me.

What bothers me is the complete disconnect between general public and irresponsible leadership pretending to have answers and solutions. Truck attacks are nothing new. Trucks were used as weapons in terrorist attacks since 1973 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Hepnarová). That is 44 years of basically doing nothing about it. At this point it may be tempting to just accept it as you are just about to do, but we are humans and not drones yet and we have plenty of intelligent and smart people who would solve this problem. Maybe not immediately, but SOMEBODY WILL AT LEAST START WORKING ON IT. It is about priorities. If our priority is to give all money to those who do not like us and who are coming to kill us we deserve what is coming to us. I am very sorry to say it, but that is the nature. Nature does not reward weak and stupid. Politicians are stupid people with ambitions and talent for BS. You keep voting for them, you will get the usual BS. That is the fact.

You have mentioned that you like diversity. Liberals like to remind us that immigration created America. Immigration was always about taking risk and working hard. UK and us no longer subscribe to such immigration. People from all over the world come to join programs. They are not coming to work hard. These programs are very generous and allow for plenty of free time. Look at this animal from Birmingham. Would you be able to take 4 years vacation in Saudi Arabia? Would you be able to live on a salary of a par time teacher in very expensive UK? Follow the money! Diversity is nice if it is not misused. Once it becomes an invasion for political purposes fun stops.

You have to ask yourself: What is my priority? Do I want to spend my own money on my own family or do I want to support globalization and import of those who are coming here to take my money and convert me into their culture?

I am sure you know the answer already. You also know, that if every country will stop giving money to economic immigrants we will have a better world. Fight and vote for that. That alone will reduce and eventually eliminate terrorism.

 

[babygorilla]

I think everyone forgets that the ENTIRE UK fits into some of our STATES. It is a small island which makes it far easier to control, and a lot less "wilderness" areas. Also, the US started itself off as a "melting pot" whereas the UK for thousands of years expelled those who were "not like us". This also creates social strife. Additionally, the US excels at fighting and creating weapons of war. Not that it is a good thing, but it's like our chief export.....The two are apples and oranges.

 

[10thSFFD]

I think everyone forgets that the ENTIRE UK fits into some of our STATES. It is a small island which makes it far easier to control, and a lot less "wilderness" areas. Also, the US started itself off as a "melting pot" whereas the UK for thousands of years expelled those who were "not like us". This also creates social strife. Additionally, the US excels at fighting and creating weapons of war. Not that it is a good thing, but it's like our chief export.....The two are apples and oranges.
View attachment 194189

Are you sure you did not skip over The British Empire? They were "melting" us and almost everybody else.

 

[10thSFFD]

Additionally, the US excels at fighting and creating weapons of war. Not that it is a good thing, but it's like our chief export.....The two are apples and oranges.

Show me on the map where this fighting produced any good results for us after 1945. We are very good at creating overblown budgets. I am sure our Army certified toilet seats are the most luxuries in the world. They better deliver for that price!

Weapons of war? How do they relate to terrorism? Think about it for a minute. Our idiotic politicians armed tribes with Stinger missiles so they can down Soviet helicopters. Politicians thought this was a Blockbuster move and when tribes finally achieve a victory they will politely return the gear back, get discount points, and rent another "weapon of war". Then, we decided that what nomads love to do is to build democracy just like we have it here. We trained them and supplied them with our "export". Then, idiots in Europe said that there is nothing better in the world than to live in Europe at European taxpayer's expenses and invited these " young democracy builders" to skip few centuries of natural development and achieve INSTANT DEMOCRACY. Are we having nirvana yet?

I am very sorry to brake a bad news to you, but we have achieved absolutely nothing and we are now marinated in our own juices with UK and the rest of Europe. We need to cut down on superpower drugs, land the plane and start working really hard since we have lost few decades already.

 

[babygorilla]

Show me on the map where this fighting produced any good results for us after 1945. We are very good at creating overblown budgets. I am sure our Army certified toilet seats are the most luxuries in the world. They better deliver for that price!

Weapons of war? How do they relate to terrorism? Think about it for a minute. Our idiotic politicians armed tribes with Stinger missiles so they can down Soviet helicopters. Politicians thought this was a Blockbuster move and when tribes finally achieve a victory they will politely return the gear back, get discount points, and rent another "weapon of war". Then, we decided that what nomads love to do is to build democracy just like we have it here. We trained them and supplied them with our "export". Then, idiots in Europe said that there is nothing better in the world than to live in Europe at European taxpayer's expenses and invited these " young democracy builders" to skip few centuries of natural development and achieve INSTANT DEMOCRACY. Are we having nirvana yet?

I am very sorry to brake a bad news to you, but we have achieved absolutely nothing and we are now marinated in our own juices with UK and the rest of Europe. We need to cut down on superpower drugs, land the plane and start working really hard since we have lost few decades already.

I never said this was a GOOD thing. In fact, that is partly why we are in s-storm we are in. Because everyone always wants to take on the biggest loudmouthed guy in the room.....

 

[ldi]

I never said this was a GOOD thing. In fact, that is partly why we are in s-storm we are in. Because everyone always wants to take on the biggest loudmouthed guy in the room.....

It doesn't have much to do with the loudmouth, but with making the buck by all means

 

[babygorilla]

Are you sure you did not skip over The British Empire? They were "melting" us and almost everybody else.

Major difference is they subjugated / ruled over THERE, they never historically took in everyone unless they were "subjects".

We try to export democracy elsewhere and try to play nicey nice, they did not. We then leave. We never should "go" to begin with.

But I was talking about "historical" immigration, which makes us completely different from UK.

 

[goodlife30]

Again, I'm not sure what figures you're looking at, but the UK's Muslim population doesn't even exceed 5%. Granted, it's only like 1% here, and Islam is growing muy rapidly everywhere, but 95% ( at least) of Britain is non-Muslim.

It's common practice for Muslims to breed out the infidels. This is why birth control is banned in most Muslim countries and pologomy is enshrined in the religion. Keep the numbers up for soldiers and overwhelm the populace through shear numbers, religious taxes, and forced conversions. Their most powerful weapon is the womb. 5 percent today 10 percent in 20 years 30 percent in 50 and so on.

 

[Jason Flare]

It's common practice for Muslims to breed out the infidels. This is why birth control is banned in most Muslim countries and pologomy is enshrined in the religion. Keep the numbers up for soldiers and overwhelm the populace through shear numbers, religious taxes, and forced conversions. Their most powerful weapon is the womb. 5 percent today 10 percent in 20 years 30 percent in 50 and so on.

I thought what Picton was saying was that they have a readily identifiable problem with only 5% Muslims versus the alleged 50- ish % Muslims.

 

[goodlife30]

I thought what Picton was saying was that they have readily identifiable problem with only 5% Muslims versus the alleged 50- ish % Muslims.

Think there are issues when they are 5%. Wait till it's 20 percent. Ask Thailand and Trinidad how that's working out.

 

[Picton]

It's common practice for Muslims to breed out the infidels. This is why birth control is banned in most Muslim countries and pologomy is enshrined in the religion. Keep the numbers up for soldiers and overwhelm the populace through shear numbers, religious taxes, and forced conversions. Their most powerful weapon is the womb. 5 percent today 10 percent in 20 years 30 percent in 50 and so on.

Right. Hence, my "may rapidly" comment; the Muslims are obviously much better breeders than anyone else in Europe at the moment.

But im not sure the rest of your historical model applies to the U.K. I don't see large-scale forced conversions or outside invasion by an organized Muslim-majority army being possible in the U.K. I do see growth, but not as exponentially as you seem to; I also see religious control of a few Parliamentary constituencies, but never very many. And eventually most of those will be safely gerrymandered anyway.

Britain's a pretty tolerant place. I'm not sure where babygorilla learned his history, but the U.K. has actually had about the same success integrating foreigners as we've had in the US: it takes time, and there's friction, but most integrate. The few who don't are, yes, at risk of becoming radicalized.

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I thought what Picton was saying was that they have a readily identifiable problem with only 5% Muslims versus the alleged 50- ish % Muslims.

Im saying there's no such thing as 50ish % Muslims in the U.K., not by a long way.

 

[Jason Flare]

I'm not sure where babygorilla learned his history, but the U.K. has actually had about the same success integrating foreigners as we've had in the US: it takes time, and there's friction, but most integrate. The few who don't are, yes, at risk of becoming radicalized.

Recent history:

This London guy was born in Kent, England.

The Orlando shooter was born in the US.

The husband of the San Bernardino couple was born in the US.

The Fort Hood shooter was born in the US.


This has has little to do with "integration" and to think it does, IMHO misses the point completely of what the spread of Islam is about.

 

[Picton]

Recent history:

This London guy was born in Kent, England.

The Orlando shooter was born in the US.

The husband of the San Bernardino couple was born in the US.

The Fort Hood shooter was born in the US.


This has has little to do with "integration" and to think it does, IMHO misses the point completely of what the spread of Islam is about.

All true. I'd call it the "spread of fundamentalist Islam," but then I know a bunch of moderate Muslims. I know that distinction is a non-starter on NES, but I've seen it anyway.

Other than that, you're very right.

 

[10thSFFD]

Major difference is they subjugated / ruled over THERE, they never historically took in everyone unless they were "subjects".

We try to export democracy elsewhere and try to play nicey nice, they did not. We then leave. We never should "go" to begin with.

But I was talking about "historical" immigration, which makes us completely different from UK.

I agree, we should never go.

I am not sure what historical immigration means, though. UK is like us. Except that The British Empire was much larger than us (it included portions of us also) and that historic experience is something to desire.

By the way, we also did not take "everyone". There were quotas all the time + during interviews of refugees at our embassies all around the world we tried to cherry pick what we thought we will need.

Maybe it would help to shine a light on us trying to play nice. When we arrived in Afghanistan we basically bribed anybody who showed up with enough men armed with Kalashnikovs. Was it nice?
Local population did not think so. Taliban suddenly became popular.

We need to recognize that the reality outside of our borders is against us right now. That would be a good start. Then, we need to acknowledge that we are exceptionally weak and idiotic. We need to end immigration for freebies. You want to come, show that you can integrate into the society in 5 years. If you do not have a full time job and you are still sponsored, be gone. You come here to teach us about jihad, better afterlife, go back! This has nothing to do with some of us liking shishkebab. You can have diversity without terrorism.

 

[10thSFFD]

Recent history:

This London guy was born in Kent, England.

The Orlando shooter was born in the US.

The husband of the San Bernardino couple was born in the US.

The Fort Hood shooter was born in the US.


This has has little to do with "integration" and to think it does, IMHO misses the point completely of what the spread of Islam is about.

We created a perfect environment! Immigration for programs. Our minimum is maximum in many countries around the world. That allows for no changes in a lifestyle. America became one large shopping mall with discount coupons on every corner.

 

[10thSFFD]

Recent history:

This London guy was born in Kent, England.

Committed crimes, lived in Saudi Arabia for 4 years. Not on the watch list! Lone wolf.

The Orlando shooter was born in the US.

Not on the watch list! Lone wolf.



The husband of the San Bernardino couple was born in the US.

Traveled to get training + brought trained wife with him. Not on the watch list! Lone wolfs.

The Fort Hood shooter was born in the US.
You get the idea by now.


We do not understand what is happening in our own country because we refuse to adjust our stupid conviction that we must be always correct because we are Americans. Well, we have no clue what we are watching and what we are seeing. Thus, we are watching nothing and everything is "lone wolf" to us. We are facing a powerful enemy which energizes evil. We need to completely switch our thinking to a different level. Ideology which glorifies those ready to die is the cheapest and the most effective weapon of the mass destruction. I do not think we got that message yet.

 

[10thSFFD]

All true. I'd call it the "spread of fundamentalist Islam," but then I know a bunch of moderate Muslims. I know that distinction is a non-starter on NES, but I've seen it anyway.

Did you ever wonder why there is no need for a term "moderate" Catholic?

 

[Jason Flare]

All true. I'd call it the "spread of fundamentalist Islam," but then I know a bunch of moderate Muslims. I know that distinction is a non-starter on NES, but I've seen it anyway.

Other than that, you're very right.

"The common denominator of all radicalized Muslims is their ultimate choice to adhere more strictly and more literally to the foundations of Islam."

Answering Jihad. Nabeel Qureshi

 

[10thSFFD]

"The common denominator of all radicalized Muslims is their ultimate choice to adhere more strictly and more literally to the foundations of Islam."

Answering Jihad. Nabeel Qureshi

Maybe we need to stop this "radicalized Muslims" BS now. Let's look closely on these attackers. Do they look to to you like devoted followers of any religion?

They are thugs. Just like Nazis were. They are criminal elements.

After Second World War there were groups of "radicalized Nazis" called "werewolves". They were killing and raping in the name of Nazism. Instead of bombing Germany again and punishing everybody for deeds of few, we have decided to work with locals and got every one of these werewolves in about 3 years.

 

[Jason Flare]

Maybe we need to stop this "radicalized Muslims" BS now. Let's look closely on these attackers. Do they look to to you like devoted followers of any religion?

They are thugs. Just like Nazis were. They are criminal elements.

After Second World War there were groups of "radicalized Nazis" called "werewolves". They were killing and raping in the name of Nazism. Instead of bombing Germany again and punishing everybody for deeds of few, we have decided to work with locals and got every one of these werewolves in about 3 years.

Isn't the whole point of a successful attack to telegraph virtually zero information of its impending occurance beforehand? Who doesn't know how to do that?

 

[goodlife30]

Recent history:

This London guy was born in Kent, England.

Committed crimes, lived in Saudi Arabia for 4 years. Not on the watch list! Lone wolf.

The Orlando shooter was born in the US.

Not on the watch list! Lone wolf.



The husband of the San Bernardino couple was born in the US.

Traveled to get training + brought trained wife with him. Not on the watch list! Lone wolfs.

The Fort Hood shooter was born in the US.
You get the idea by now.


We do not understand what is happening in our own country because we refuse to adjust our stupid conviction that we must be always correct because we are Americans. Well, we have no clue what we are watching and what we are seeing. Thus, we are watching nothing and everything is "lone wolf" to us. We are facing a powerful enemy which energizes evil. We need to completely switch our thinking to a different level. Ideology which glorifies those ready to die is the cheapest and the most effective weapon of the mass destruction. I do not think we got that message yet.

Common thread is islam.

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Did you ever wonder why there is no need for a term "moderate" Catholic?

Or Bhuddist, Protestant, Hindu, Wiccan

 

[Picton]

Did you ever wonder why there is no need for a term "moderate" Catholic?

Of course there is. Every denomination in the world has a left wing, a right wing, and moderates.

Ask the Pope. He'd laugh in your face if you told him all Catholics believed the same thing; he knows better.

The big problem with Islam? No pope. Nobody to arbitrate. So all the Sunnis get to be right.