Tavor: who has one or opinion

[PappyM3]

There are muzzle breaks that redirect the concussion forward. It feels less loud and has absolutely no side gas ejection. Kaw Valley Precision makes really good ones. I've used one and it works like a regular break but no concussion and also feels quieter.

Linear comps do not work like a regular brake. They actually add to add to felt recoil rather than subtract from it.

However. They are a good option if your gun doesn’t have much recoil to begin with, but you want to minimize felt concussion at the shooter and to the sides.

One option is the Black River Tactical Covert Comp. It’s not quite as effective as a linear comp, but is much smaller and lighter than the Kaw Valley. Black River Tactical Store - Shop BRT

Another light option is the V Seven Helios. But it’s bigger than the BRT covert comp. MUZZLE DEVICES

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Linear comps do not work like a regular brake. They actually add to add to felt recoil rather than subtract from it.

I think you've never had a good linear comp. The reduction is VERY noticeable with Kaw Valley comps

 

[PappyM3]

I think you've never had a good linear comp. The reduction is VERY noticeable with Kaw Valley comps

Recoil reduction from a linear comp?

Physics disagrees with you. They direct the gasses all forward. The equal and opposite reaction is going to go straight back into your shoulder. A normal brake reduces recoil by directing some of the gasses rearward and to the side. Thus reducing the amount of equal and opposite recoil going to the rear.

 

[paul73]

Recoil reduction from a linear comp? Physics disagrees with you.

not recoil - the talk was about reducing gases from the brake on a 308 short barrel.
dunno, i use a regular ported brake on a tavor and never felt any gases from the muzzle. but i may not have paid any attention to it.

 

[PappyM3]

not recoil - the talk was about reducing gases from the brake on a 308 short barrel.
dunno, i use a regular ported brake on a tavor and never felt any gases from the muzzle. but i may not have paid any attention to it.

He said “I've used one and it works like a regular break but no concussion and also feels quieter.”

“Working like a regular brake” means recoil reduction. Which is not something a linear comp does. I’m just trying to prevent people from buying a linear comp thinking they’ll get both reduced concussion and reduced recoil. It’s a trade space, not a have a cake and eat it too space.

 

[paul73]

to prevent people from buying a linear comp thinking they’ll get both reduced concussion and reduced recoil

yep, it for sure does not do that.
and, frankly, i have not got an impression that is sounded any quieter with a linear comp. but i did not try it with earmuffs off.
i did it once by mistake with a 6 dasher - that thing has a true nasty hi freq pitch to it. i can take 308 or 7.62 AK with no ear protection fine, or 12 ga shotgun, 6 dasher was not ears friendly.

 

[PappyM3]

yep, it for sure does not do that.
and, frankly, i have not got an impression that is sounded any quieter with a linear comp. but i did not try it with earmuffs off.
i did it once by mistake with a 6 dasher - that thing has a true nasty hi freq pitch to it. i can take 308 or 7.62 AK with no ear protection fine, or 12 ga shotgun, 6 dasher was not ears friendly.

The linear comps I’ve been around are more pleasant for people next to you, compared to a brake or regular comp. And I’ve found as the shooter, they’re more pleasant for you if you’re next to a wall. It’s all concussion/pressure mitigation that I’ve noticed. Not really any sound reduction at the shooter.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

He said “I've used one and it works like a regular break but no concussion and also feels quieter.”

“Working like a regular brake” means recoil reduction. Which is not something a linear comp does. I’m just trying to prevent people from buying a linear comp thinking they’ll get both reduced concussion and reduced recoil. It’s a trade space, not a have a cake and eat it too space.

Sheesh. just 'cause it didn't work with the breaks you use, it doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. It WORKS for me. So I suppose I should put a disclaimer like yours:

"I’m just trying to prevent people from buying a linear comp thinking they can't get both reduced concussion and reduced recoil. It’s a trade space, and you get some benefits on both concussion AND recoil."

 

[PappyM3]

Sheesh. just 'cause it didn't work with the breaks you use, it doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. It WORKS for me. So I suppose I should put a disclaimer like yours:

"I’m just trying to prevent people from buying a linear comp thinking they can't get both reduced concussion and reduced recoil. It’s a trade space, and you get some benefits on both concussion AND recoil."

Please explain how a linear comp, like the Kaw valley, provides any recoil reduction whatsoever. How does directing all gasses forward reduce recoil?

Kaw Valley don’t even make that claim on their website. Linear comps have a purpose. It is not recoil reduction. In the trade space of user-felt concussion reduction and recoil reduction, linear comps are in the concussion reduction far end of the chart. They trade all recoil reduction for concussion reduction.

 

[rcwhat]

Please explain how a linear comp, like the Kaw valley, provides any recoil reduction whatsoever. How does directing all gasses forward reduce recoil?

Kaw Valley don’t even make that claim on their website.

It’s placebo effect. You can’t overcome physics

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Please explain how a linear comp, like the Kaw valley, provides any recoil reduction whatsoever. How does directing all gasses forward reduce recoil?

Kaw Valley don’t even make that claim on their website. Linear comps have a purpose. It is not recoil reduction. In the trade space of user-felt concussion reduction and recoil reduction, linear comps are in the concussion reduction far end of the chart. They trade all recoil reduction for concussion reduction.

You could try it and find out. Or you could just keep doing things the way you have done before and go shoot your 111-year-old relic...

While you're waxing poetic about some theory of yours, I HAVE actually tested a linear compensator on a couple of very light carbines(Sub2K's) so I draw on experience.

 

[PappyM3]

You could try it and find out. Or you could just keep doing things the way you have done before and go shoot your 111-year-old relic...

While you're waxing poetic about some theory of yours, I HAVE actually tested a linear compensator on a couple of very light carbines(Sub2K's) so I draw on experience.

Your testing, did it include the use of accelerometers attached to the guns resting on something for repeatable results? Maybe the testing used pressure sensors? Or was it the ol’ Mk 1 shoulder sensor?

“Some theory” of mine is basic physics and the very principles that are used when designing muzzle devices.

 

[paul73]

“Some theory” of mine is basic physics

no use proving laws of physics to the e=mc2 deniers.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Your testing, did it include the use of accelerometers attached to the guns resting on something for repeatable results? Maybe the testing used pressure sensors? Or was it the ol’ Mk 1 shoulder sensor?

“Some theory” of mine is basic physics and the very principles that are used when designing muzzle devices.

What's your testing methodology? Until you present your results and methodology, your theory, no matter how much the word "physics" is mentioned, is just that: a theory.

On the other hand, I've backed the theory with testing and did confirm that linear comps do work. Gases changing direction multiple times do slow down and lower the amount and timing of recoil. Multiple openings in in the row on the inside of the compensator causing gasses to intermingle at different speeds and angles slow the gasses even further. Hey, it's just a theory supported by actual testing so what good is it, right?

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

no use proving laws of physics to the e=mc2 deniers.

Says the flat-earther...

 

[92G]

The linear comp decreases blast for the shooter at expense of slightly increased recoil. Newton‘s 3rd law. Ive used them on bullpup (before I could have suppressor) and they help make it less abnoxious to shoot. It will still destroy one’s hearing after a mag.

one of the best options for a bull pup other than a can would be the Witt machine sound mitigation comp. ive never used it but it checks every box without being class 3. A guy in my 2 gun squad ran it last week. Nifty.

Shop - Witt Machine

www.wittmachine.net

 

[PappyM3]

What's your testing methodology? Until you present your results and methodology, your theory, no matter how much the word "physics" is mentioned, is just that: a theory.

On the other hand, I've backed the theory with testing and did confirm that linear comps do work. Gases changing direction multiple times do slow down and lower the amount and timing of recoil. Multiple openings in in the row on the inside of the compensator causing gasses to intermingle at different speeds and angles slow the gasses even further. Hey, it's just a theory supported by actual testing so what good is it, right?

Yes, Newton’s third law has never been tested.

Your linear comp sounds pretty amazing though. You should pitch the new found capability to Kaw Valley so they can add it to their website.

 

[cathouse01]

The main purpose of compensators is to reduce muzzle movement. The main purpose of a break is to reduce recoil. Different varieties of these two devices may have some overlap (i.e. some compensators may have a mitigating effect on recoil and some breaks may reduce muzzle movement). But a pure compensator, like the Kaw Valley linear Comp, really just reduces muzzle movement (at the expense of a slight increase in recoil). Now the reduced muzzle movement (plus projecting more of the blast energy down range) may result in a reduction in the shooter’s perceived recoil. But projecting more of the gases directly forward (without significantly slowing them down the way a silencer does) can only result in increased recoil. You’ll note that Kaw Valley makes no claims about reduced recoil for their linear comps.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Yes, Newton’s third law has never been tested.

Your linear comp sounds pretty amazing though. You should pitch the new found capability to Kaw Valley so they can add it to their website.

This is how linear comps work but you wouldn't know that...

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

The main purpose of compensators is to reduce muzzle movement. The main purpose of a break is to reduce recoil. Different varieties of these two devices may have some overlap (i.e. some compensators may have a mitigating effect on recoil and some breaks may reduce muzzle movement). But a pure compensator, like the Kaw Valley linear Comp, really just reduces muzzle movement (at the expense of a slight increase in recoil). Now the reduced muzzle movement (plus projecting more of the blast energy down range) may result in a reduction in the shooter’s perceived recoil. But projecting more of the gases directly forward (without significantly slowing them down the way a silencer does) can only result in increased recoil. You’ll note that Kaw Valley makes no claims about reduced recoil for their linear comps.

Man, I wish others would offer a response as thoughtful as yours.

You are correct: Kaw Valley does not claim a reduction but neither does any other break manufacturer.

Regarding work of a linear compensator: if one where to peel away the outer edge, the inner core is in essence a mini break. It has firs, second, third chambers,etc., Just like a break. of course, if the gass did not slow down and maintained it's energy, the outer shell would cancel the muzzle break effect of the inner shell. Alas, the gas dissipates rather quickly and the backwash of the gasses exiting the second chamber contribute to dissipation. As a result, a linear break provides some recoil compensation. Of course, the effect is not as significant as that of serious muzzle break like the amazing Ultradyne Apollo 5 chamber break but it's still there and is useful.

Granted, the entire discussion on the usefulness of a muzzle break and the recoil of 223 cartridge out of a 7lb rifle is silly, don't you agree?

 

[Compooky]

Man, I wish others would offer a response as thoughtful as yours.

You are correct: Kaw Valley does not claim a reduction but neither does any other break manufacturer.

Regarding work of a linear compensator: if one where to peel away the outer edge, the inner core is in essence a mini break. It has firs, second, third chambers,etc., Just like a break. of course, if the gass did not slow down and maintained it's energy, the outer shell would cancel the muzzle break effect of the inner shell. Alas, the gas dissipates rather quickly and the backwash of the gasses exiting the second chamber contribute to dissipation. As a result, a linear break provides some recoil compensation. Of course, the effect is not as significant as that of serious muzzle break like the amazing Ultradyne Apollo 5 chamber break but it's still there and is useful.

Granted, the entire discussion on the usefulness of a muzzle break and the recoil of 223 cartridge out of a 7lb rifle is silly, don't you agree?

But the KVP linear comp only has one chamber and that does pretty much nothing for recoil… SLR would be a better example of a mini brake as the inner core and that’s still not going to lower recoil.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

The linear comp decreases blast for the shooter at expense of slightly increased recoil. Newton‘s 3rd law. Ive used them on bullpup (before I could have suppressor) and they help make it less abnoxious to shoot. It will still destroy one’s hearing after a mag.

one of the best options for a bull pup other than a can would be the Witt machine sound mitigation comp. ive never used it but it checks every box without being class 3. A guy in my 2 gun squad ran it last week. Nifty.

Shop - Witt Machine

www.wittmachine.net

Doh. No 308 option

 

[cathouse01]

Doh. No 308 option

View attachment 628842

Many muzzle devices use .30 for the broad range of .30 calibers from .30-30, .30-06, .308, 7.62x51 and even the 7.62x39 (even though it’s actual bullet diameter is .312 vs the others’s .308). Just like cleaning rods, I would expect that the .30 option will work for all “.30 caliber” rifles, which almost all use .308 or even slightly bigger bullets. In fact, I can’t think of a cartridge that actually uses a bullet that is exactly .30 inch in diameter.

ETA So I did find one that used a .300 bullet, the .300 Rook, and obsolete rimfire cartridge

 

[PappyM3]

…
Kaw Valley does not claim a reduction but neither does any other break brake manufacturer.

No muzzle brake manufacturer claims their brakes reduce recoil? Pretty much all manufacturers of muzzle brakes advertise that their muzzle brakes reduce recoil. It’s what they’re designed to do.

Regarding work of a linear compensator: if one where to peel away the outer edge, the inner core is in essence a mini break brake. It has firs, second, third chambers,etc., Just like a break brake. of course, if the gass did not slow down and maintained it's energy, the outer shell would cancel the muzzle break brake effect of the inner shell. Alas, the gas dissipates rather quickly and the backwash of the gasses exiting the second chamber contribute to dissipation. As a result, a linear break brake provides some recoil compensation. Of course, the effect is not as significant as that of serious muzzle break brake like the amazing Ultradyne Apollo 5 chamber break brake but it's still there and is useful.

A linear comp that redirects gasses internally will not have the effect of a brake that redirects them out of and away from the system of the gun. Those gasses in the comp’s expansion chamber help with back pressure and can effectively increase the barrel length from a gas system standpoint. But that’s it. They don’t reduce recoil (even if they go backwards) because those gasses then hit the linear comp wall which negates the forces they just imparted on the internal brake portion.

Granted, the entire discussion on the usefulness of a muzzle break brake and the recoil of 223 cartridge out of a 7lb rifle is silly, don't you agree?

An actual muzzle brake can still be useful on a 5.56 gun, for uses such as competition. But yes, 5.56 is low recoiling, which is why I said linear comps are a good option, especially if your gun does not recoil much to begin with.

 

[92G]

Doh. No 308 option

its .30 caliber bro. And it’s a bad idea on a 308 win as the recoil from linear comp will be significant.

 

[beaker]

I have a linear comp on my MSAR Aug clone and it was a night and day difference for sound and blowback for the operator of a bullpup. It redirects sound and the blast forward making shooting it much more fun for the shooter and those around them. My experience shows no increase in felt recoil of a linear comp vs a brake, and no muzzle rise with the linear comp. At least with 5.56 which is what the MSAR is chambered in. I am a fan of them in general, all from using them.

 

[DieselSmoke88]

Muzzle brake on the tavor makes it pretty loud up front. When I shoot this thing up in NH I cringe about the racket the neighbors are experiencing.
Maybe someday Ill get a suppressor for it.

 

[AJK129]

Muzzle brake on the tavor makes it pretty loud up front. When I shoot this thing up in NH I cringe about the racket the neighbors are experiencing.
Maybe someday Ill get a suppressor for it.

A guy had one at Ridgeline with a brake. That thing was LOUD shooting in a shipping container

 

[cathouse01]

Just don’t try and use a Spike’s Tactical ST DYNACOMP “SHORTY” EXTREME. It is the polar opposite of “flash hider”.

 

[MaybeMe]

Ever felt like wasting a pile of ammo with the SAR or X95 in binary fire, but couldnt find a binary trigger pack?
Try a small piece of thin steel with a dab of loctite on the back of the sear arm.
The way the bolt works is the safety factor in case there was worry about trigger over-run and having a round go off before the bolt was closed.. the pin doesnt come close enough to strike primer until the bolt rotates and locks into place.
So far binary fire is ATF legal, but Im no lawyer. Use your own discretion as always.

Hope you all had a happy 4th of July.. I know I did!