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Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

Here is a link to a friend of the court brief submitted from Columbia University in the Antonyuk case. Which presently is in front of the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit regarding the disclosure of Social Media Accounts.

Amici Brief - Columbia University

They are representing - the Asian Pacific American Gun Owners Association, the DC Project Foundation, the Liberal Gun Club, the National African American Gun Association, Operation Blazing Sword–Pink Pistols, and the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University
 
I saw quotes on Twitter, and the judges were putting the government in very awkward positions. ;)

I read the FPC and @2aupdates tweets, it definitely seemed that way. I want to listen to it myself but no one has the audio up yet and the 3rd circuit still has it private. The 3rd has heard a few lifetime bans for non violent felons cases 8n the past few year but they were all pre bruen.

I saw one FPC tweet mentioning one of the judges ask the govt if jaywalking was made a felony, would those convicted every be allowed to possess guns, answer no. If someone was convicted at 20 of a non violent felony and they’re now 80 and have been a law abiding since the one conviction, can they possess guns. Answer no. Could the govt take away someone’s 1st amendment rights for life. Answer that would be a more difficult thing to do.

If the ban were 10 years or there was a process to recover your 2A rights post conviction, the govt may have a stronger position. The lifetime ban for a non violent crime is an absurd restriction and I doubt many in the public would support it.
 
The lifetime ban for a non violent crime is an absurd restriction and I doubt many in the public would support it.

I take it you've never talked with anyone in Cambridge, Somerville, Newton, etc.

"What?? Republicans want felons to have guns now??" Fair or not, the less guns is better crowd doesn't care how we get there, just that the ends justify the means.
 
I take it you've never talked with anyone in Cambridge, Somerville, Newton, etc.

"What?? Republicans want felons to have guns now??" Fair or not, the less guns is better crowd doesn't care how we get there, just that the ends justify the means.
They’re a small minority
 
No, no they are not. At least not in MA.

I’m talking nation. And yes the percentage of people who want people to lose 2A rights forever over non violent convictions is extremely small. 90% of the population have no clue about the vast majority of gun laws and most would be shocked to know a minor conviction could end someone’s 2A rights forever
 

Domestic-Abuse Gun Ban in Peril After Recent Supreme Court Ruling​

Some judges reject firearm ban for alleged abusers subject to protective orders​

From Today's WSJ.

"Federal law for nearly 30 years has barred gun possession for alleged domestic abusers, but the ban is coming under pressure from judges who say it is at odds with the Supreme Court’s recent expansion of Second Amendment rights.

Decisions from a federal appeals court and several trial judges have concluded the ban, included in the 1994 crime bill enacted by Congress, clashes with U.S. traditions of gun regulation, the new legal standard the Supreme Court announced in June.

Most notably, the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Feb. 2 tossed out the conviction of a man charged with illegally possessing several firearms. After police identified him as a suspect in multiple shootings, they obtained a warrant to search his home and found a stash of weapons along with a copy of a civil restraining order against him, obtained by an ex-girlfriend whom he allegedly assaulted and threatened to shoot.
The defendant, “while hardly a model citizen, is nonetheless part of the political community entitled to the Second Amendment’s guarantees,” Judge Cory T. Wilson wrote in the Fifth Circuit’s ruling.
Under federal law, convicted felons are banned from owning firearms, as are those convicted of misdemeanor domestic-violence charges. The ban on gun ownership in the protective-order cases is different, applying to individuals who are subject to civil court orders that bar them from threatening or harassing an intimate partner. Spouses who fear for their safety can obtain such orders even if there are no corresponding criminal proceedings. The ban is among myriad gun regulations left vulnerable to challenges after the Supreme Court’s 6-3 ruling last year striking down New York’s handgun-permitting regime.

The decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Inc. v. Bruen, written by Justice Clarence Thomas, split the court along ideological lines and fundamentally changed how courts are expected to judge the constitutionality of gun laws, subjecting restrictions to a far more demanding standard. Courts should give less weight to government concerns about gun violence and public safety, Justice Thomas wrote, and instead look to historical records to determine whether a gun restriction is “consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.”

Defenders of the domestic-violence gun ban have struggled to find evidence of states in the 1700s and 1800s seizing guns from the homes of violent spouses.

On the day the Fifth Circuit ruled, a U.S. district judge in Kentucky issued a similar opinion, finding no “comparable historical analogue” to the 1994 ban. And in a Texas ruling from November, another federal judge said, “The company Amazon is older than the federal laws prohibiting someone subject to a court order from possessing a firearm.”

The decisions were all from judges appointed by Republican presidents.

Since Bruen, courts have ruled against a range of other gun laws, including a federal gun ban on marijuana users as well as restrictions on young adults and carrying weapons in certain locations, such as libraries, museums and bars.

“Before Bruen, pretty much all gun regulations were being upheld,” said George Mason University criminal-law professor Robert Leider, who favors a robust view of Second Amendment rights. “There’s been a reckoning because the historical test that Bruen announces collides with the fact that many of these laws have no historical pedigree.”

Pepperdine University law professor Jacob D. Charles, who has written critically of the Bruen decision, said the protective-order cases have exposed troubling aspects to the ruling, which “allows courts to strike down a modern law protecting victims of domestic violence because the founders did not treat domestic abusers similarly.”

The Fifth Circuit itself said the new Supreme Court standard changed the outcome for the Texas defendant, Zackey Rahimi.

In February 2020, Mr. Rahimi’s then-girlfriend obtained a two-year protective order restraining him from threatening, stalking or harassing her or their toddler son. According to police and court records, he had assaulted her in a parked car and fired a shot in the air. A lawyer for Mr. Rahimi, who remains in custody facing multiple state criminal charges, declined to comment.

Before the Bruen decision, the appeals court had affirmed Mr. Rahimi’s federal conviction and 73-month prison sentence, citing earlier precedent that concluded the societal benefits of the domestic-violence protections outweighed any burden on the right to bear arms. But a new three-judge panel reconsidered the case in light of the new precedent and found that the ban was “an outlier that our ancestors would never have accepted.”


Attorney General Merrick Garland said the Justice Department would seek further review of the case. The department also has appealed the trial-court rulings it recently lost.

The government likened the domestic-abuser statute to historical laws that kept guns away from suspected British loyalists and entire classes of residents deemed to be a threat, reaching as far back as English Militia Act of 1662, which allowed officers to seize arms from people judged “dangerous to the Peace of the Kingdom.” The government also pointed to mid-19th-century statutes requiring individuals likely to disturb the peace to post bonds before carrying weapons in public.

The appeals court found none of those laws “relevantly similar” to the protection-order statute, or as burdensome on gun ownership.

Most states have their own laws that make it a crime to possess firearms while under a domestic-violence restraining order, many of which require individuals placed under orders to relinquish their firearms. Those state measures, like the federal ban, face uncertainty in light of the recent rulings.

Advocates for domestic-violence survivors and tougher firearm regulation say the domestic-violence gun ban saves lives, citing studies linking gun laws against abusers to reductions in spousal and dating homicides.

Justice Stephen Breyer, dissenting in the Bruen case, cited research showing that abusive relationships are much more likely to turn deadly when violent partners have access to weapons.

More than 100,000 gun sales were rejected from 1999 to 2020 because a criminal-background check showed the applicant subject to a disqualifying protection order, according to Everytown for Gun Safety, a gun-control advocacy group.

More cases on the issue remain in the courts, with the potential to widen a split among judges.

U.S. District Judge Timothy DeGiusti in Oklahoma, a President George W. Bush appointee, upheld the statute in a late-summer ruling. While there was a “paucity of evidence” that American traditions addressed guns and domestic relationships, the judge said, the 1994 ban is “consistent with the longstanding and historical prohibition on the possession of firearms by felons.”

Write to Jacob Gershman at [email protected]
 
There is a lot of tap dancing around it , but these judges are well aware that the vast majority of RSOs are total fabricated crap spurred on by divorce lawyers or butt hurt ex's .
You are correct, SOP in Ma. in divorce proceedings is wife's lawyer urges her to get RSO against hubby even thou no threat nor proof of domestic violence.
Bye, bye guns, security clearance, and possibly job and Judges don't care.
 
There is a lot of tap dancing around it , but these judges are well aware that the vast majority of RSOs are total fabricated crap spurred on by divorce lawyers or butt hurt ex's .

A suburban Boston female cop told me 90% of all restraining orders they deliver are BS and a complete waste of their time. She said they are weapons used in divorces or other disputes
 
This surprises me zero.

It’s so easy to use the system as a weapon. Think about this, a woman wants a divorce because she’s not in love any longer or he cheated, whatever. If she has an evil or anger in her. She tears her shirt, hits her self in the face enough to leave redness, makes some marks on her arms, makes some scratches, knocks a few thins over, breaks a lamp…., then runs out of the house screaming, go3s to the neighbors to call 911. Cops show up, woman says my husband attacked me…. guy says I didn’t touch her, I was watching tv in the basement. Cops automatically arrest husband and he’s getting prosecuted for that. Then wife files for TRO with the arrest, police report etc as evidence.

Wife gets a burner phone, texts her own phone says “you had me arrested, I’m going to kill you”. Husband is arrested for violating TRO before the hearing on extending the TRO. TRO will definitely be extended, a judge is always going to go that way. Husband is going to get killed in the divorce, have a TRO, the RO and the risk wife could claims he threatened her again etc and get arrested again for violating it, spend a ton of money on lawyers, probably lose friends over this because some will want to be away from the controversy and possibly lose his job.

If it were an ex gf she could arrange a meeting at her house or his and much of the same. Obviously a guy could attempt the same but because men and generally larger than woman and police and courts are MUCH less likely to view men as sympathetically as women in these situations, it is less likely to work. A co worker, neighbor etc could do much of this and destroy a person.

With a few hours to plan and enact the scheme, an evil person with an understanding of how the system works, can toss someone into the gears of the system to endure months or years of hell and after the first few days or weeks, the evil person really won’t need to do anything else, the system will be on autopilot and destroy the persons life.
 
It’s so easy to use the system as a weapon. Think about this, a woman wants a divorce because she’s not in love any longer or he cheated, whatever. If she has an evil or anger in her. She tears her shirt, hits her self in the face enough to leave redness, makes some marks on her arms, makes some scratches, knocks a few thins over, breaks a lamp…., then runs out of the house screaming, go3s to the neighbors to call 911.

None of that is even necessary. I know a guy who lost his LTC because she claimed ... "something" There was *no* proof, not even fabricated "evidence" of any danger at all.

I know another guy who lost his LTC because she claimed, "I don't feel safe", when the reality is that *she* was the one who was the most violent, even to the point of having been arrested for hitting him.

On the one hand: domestic violence is a really strongly correlated with murder. On the other hand, "restraining order" is absolutely not the same as "domestic violence". I'm totally OK with people convicted of domestic violence losing their gun rights. But (and this is really important) it must be a conviction, in a court, where there's actual evidence that can be refuted, and where false statements are a crime.
 
None of that is even necessary. I know a guy who lost his LTC because she claimed ... "something" There was *no* proof, not even fabricated "evidence" of any danger at all.

I know another guy who lost his LTC because she claimed, "I don't feel safe", when the reality is that *she* was the one who was the most violent, even to the point of having been arrested for hitting him.

On the one hand: domestic violence is a really strongly correlated with murder. On the other hand, "restraining order" is absolutely not the same as "domestic violence". I'm totally OK with people convicted of domestic violence losing their gun rights. But (and this is really important) it must be a conviction, in a court, where there's actual evidence that can be refuted, and where false statements are a crime.

With the revocation of an LTC, pre bruen the chief had total power so a mere fabricated claim by a wife, ex gf, neighbor, co worker, relative, etc could get a chief to pull that. Post bruen they don’t have absolutely power any longer with is a huge improvement.

Regarding losing gun rights, I’m not in favor of anyone permanently losing 2A rights for life. I agree there is often a correlation of domestic violence escalating to rape, murder…. But at times alcohol is a factor, the relationship could be mutually violent or a person could be young and immature on how to deal with relationship issues and they are a completely different person 20: years later. If a person is still a danger years later there’s an argument for restricting 2a but a permanent ban if the danger isn’t evident, I don’t agree with that. (Footnote, there are many levels of DV from a slap, pushing to severe violent assaults with long lasting or permanent injuring. Obviously all DV is wrong but a DV conviction for a slap is a lesser level offense than breaking bones, choking, etc)

If you listened to the range vs garland en banc I posted, I think the govt made a VERY poor argument in defending the 922 permanent gun possession restrictions. I believe it was a dem appointed judge who asked if a guy was convicted of a felony at 20 then lived a perfect life for 60:years and was no danger, at 80 should that person still be banned from owning guns and the govt lawyer said yes.

Even the liberals on that court seem unlikely to support a permanent life ban of 2A rights with no way of getting them back short of a pardon when the person isn’t a danger. The government lawyer insisting a loss of 2A for writing bad checks or welfare fraud etc is A OK too because that’s what the legislature says seemed to go over like a lead balloon too. One judge asked what if the legislature made jaywalking a misdemeanor punishable by a few years in jail, should the person lose 2A rights.

The lawyer should have read the room and offered a fall back position if the original position wasn’t ok to the court. Instead the lawyer was insistent and thins is probably going to lose badly
 
With the revocation of an LTC, pre bruen the chief had total power so a mere fabricated claim by a wife, ex gf, neighbor, co worker, relative, etc could get a chief to pull that. Post bruen they don’t have absolutely power any longer with is a huge improvement.

Why do you believe this? A restraining order is a restraining order. Bruen didn't change this.

The 5th circuit's recent decision doesn't apply here, or anywhere else outside the 5th circuit.


Regarding losing gun rights, I’m not in favor of anyone permanently losing 2A rights for life.

Anyone? Do you mean that literally, or figuratively?
 
Why do you believe this? A restraining order is a restraining order. Bruen didn't change this.

The 5th circuit's recent decision doesn't apply here, or anywhere else outside the 5th circuit.




Anyone? Do you mean that literally, or figuratively?

I thought you meant someone made allegations to the chief and they revocaked or suspended their LTCs, I didn’t take that it was through a TRO.

Hopefully other courts deal with the TRO issue like the 5th en banc. A WV federal court ruled in similar way as the 5th I believe.

TROs are the worst too because the person getting the TRO has no clue anything is going on until they’re served. The seizing and bonded warehouse situation in MA making it even worse in MA.
 
I worked with a guy in the 90's, lifetime Concord, Ma, resident who dumped his wife and filed for divorce. He was a member of Concord R&G club and big skeet shooter. She asked him to babysit kid, left for "shopping" and called cops saying he was depressed and suicidal. Vinnie knew the COP and all the cops and told me he was sitting in HIS house watching TV with kid and next thing he hears is Cops on bullhorn telling him to come out of the house with his hands up. He goes to door, recognizes Cops and waves and asks WTF is going on? He walks outside, Cops cuff and stuff him and it's over. Wife got TRO, his guns went bye bye and he was still fighting RO 10 yrs later. She kept refilling RO even thou never any proof of violence or threats. She moved to Maine and Ma. judge kept approving RO when existing one expired. The system is rigged against Men, woman must be believed without any proof because Men are bad.
 
I take it you've never talked with anyone in Cambridge, Somerville, Newton, etc.
I appreciat that you said in instead of from. Most of the people I know who I would truely say were from Somerville are pretty pro 2A. Most of them have also moved out of Somerville.

Now, all the people who moved to Somerville after rent control was removed and those people could no longer afford Cambridge? Whole different story.
 
I appreciat that you said in instead of from. Most of the people I know who I would truely say were from Somerville are pretty pro 2A. Most of them have also moved out of Somerville.

Now, all the people who moved to Somerville after rent control was removed and those people could no longer afford Cambridge? Whole different story.
Somerville and Cambridge are totally woke, except for a few longtime residents who are dying off.
 
Somerville and Cambridge are totally woke, except for a few longtime residents who are dying off.
One of the Resistat meetings a few years ago I remember them throwing out that 40% of the city had lived in Somerville less than 2 years. People actually born and raised there gets lower every year. I know about 6 people I went to elementary school with who still live here.
 
I thought you meant someone made allegations to the chief and they revocaked or suspended their LTCs, I didn’t take that it was through a TRO.

Hopefully other courts deal with the TRO issue like the 5th en banc. A WV federal court ruled in similar way as the 5th I believe.

TROs are the worst too because the person getting the TRO has no clue anything is going on until they’re served. The seizing and bonded warehouse situation in MA making it even worse in MA.
I wonder what it cost to get a TRO issue in front of the a circuit en banc? I thinking its beyond what most would do. What's that, after two court losses, I think. Probably in to it for at least $50K maybe closer to $100K
 
At first, I thought this was all cases citing Bruen in their ruling. That would also be an interesting list to see.

Bruen just happened 7 months ago so the decisions citing bruen is small but will grow substantially. Every 2A case now is based on bruen so it’s going to be cited non stop until SCOTUS decides another 2A case
 
I worked with a guy in the 90's, lifetime Concord, Ma, resident who dumped his wife and filed for divorce. He was a member of Concord R&G club and big skeet shooter. She asked him to babysit kid, left for "shopping" and called cops saying he was depressed and suicidal. Vinnie knew the COP and all the cops and told me he was sitting in HIS house watching TV with kid and next thing he hears is Cops on bullhorn telling him to come out of the house with his hands up. He goes to door, recognizes Cops and waves and asks WTF is going on? He walks outside, Cops cuff and stuff him and it's over. Wife got TRO, his guns went bye bye and he was still fighting RO 10 yrs later. She kept refilling RO even thou never any proof of violence or threats. She moved to Maine and Ma. judge kept approving RO when existing one expired. The system is rigged against Men, woman must be believed without any proof because Men are bad.

That sounds similar to both of my friends' stories. In both cases there was zero proof of threat, in both cases they renewed over and over without evidence of need, and (perhaps unlike your guy) they both insisted that the guy come and fix the water heater/babysit/whatever and would sit next to them at school functions etc. Such an obvious abuse of the system.
 
A suburban Boston female cop told me 90% of all restraining orders they deliver are BS and a complete waste of their time. She said they are weapons used in divorces or other disputes
My sister had a lawyer during her divorce that was pushing it to the point where she fired her.
My sister said no and she was harping on it to the point of obsession .
They just wanted to do it in a civil manner and put it behind them and the bitch lawyer was foaming at the mouth wanting to wreck his life.
 
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