Squib at the range today

[whacko]

But if it went pop (i.e., "low level bang"),
what could be hanging fire?

If the squib cycled the action,
aren't the odds astronomical against a squib being followed immediately by
the next round being a hang fire?

If the squib didn't cycle the action,
there may well be an inert bullet wedged down the barrel,
but isn't there nothing but brass and soot left in the chamber?

If it went pop or poof that was the primer going off and didn't ignite the powder.....but there may still be a spark or heat in the cartridge that could ignite the powder after a few seconds. That's the definition of a hangfire. If the gun goes click.....hold it downrange for a few seconds before racking.

 

[eisenhow]

And according to your scenario of your first squib.....if the projo had gone up the barrel a little more your gun would have gone into battery........ and......click kaboom! Sweet!

Again.....as an ro I've had three shooters with squibs this summer.....it's more common that many think. I'll err on the side of caution.

I'll take my alibi in timed or rapid fire for a FTF in NRA bullseye. However, as a shooter or RO in USPSA, Steel Challenge, WoS, or god forbid IDPA, I'll continue to tap & rack, or allow the shooter to as an RO, if I don't feel/hear a bang.

 

[AHM]

If it went pop or poof that was the primer going off and didn't ignite the powder.....but there may still be a spark or heat in the cartridge that could ignite the powder after a few seconds. That's the definition of a hangfire. If the gun goes click.....hold it downrange for a few seconds before racking.

OK, thanks. My problem is that I just couldn't imagine a hangfire where you can hear the primer go off, followed by the uncertain delay. If that's a possibility, then yes I want to use hangfire protocol if I hear a funky pop. I'd be freaked at encountering a squib anyhow, but before this discussion I figured that I'd be mainly concerned with being very sure to cease fire.


On hangfires (which are as rare as hen's teeth, right?):

I can imagine hangfires coming from dud primers, topped with powder that coincidentally cooks off after a few seconds in a really, really hot chamber.

I can imagine hangfires that come from a wedged firing pin that breaks through the asphalt in a filthy action, and strikes the primer with enough force to fire it. (Maybe unlikely in inertial systems, but never say that circumstances can't invent the perfect filth that allows it).

But has anyone ever in recorded history managed to re-create primer hot-spot hangfires in lab conditions?
I'd love it for someone to be able to create hangfires on demand, and get high-speed radiographs like the Manhattan Project movies of an implosion.

 

[whacko]

OK, thanks. My problem is that I just couldn't imagine a hangfire where you can hear the primer go off, followed by the uncertain delay. If that's a possibility, then yes I want to use hangfire protocol if I hear a funky pop. I'd be freaked at encountering a squib anyhow, but before this discussion I figured that I'd be mainly concerned with being very sure to cease fire.


On hangfires (which are as rare as hen's teeth, right?):

I can imagine hangfires coming from dud primers, topped with powder that coincidentally cooks off after a few seconds in a really, really hot chamber.

I can imagine hangfires that come from a wedged firing pin that breaks through the asphalt in a filthy action, and strikes the primer with enough force to fire it. (Maybe unlikely in inertial systems, but never say that circumstances can't invent the perfect filth that allows it).

But has anyone ever in recorded history managed to re-create primer hot-spot hangfires in lab conditions?
I'd love it for someone to be able to create hangfires on demand, and get high-speed radiographs like the Manhattan Project movies of an implosion.

Hangfires are rare as hens teeth you are right. I look at it this way.....in risk management two variables are considered

1. Probability of of an event
2. Severity of outcome

The severity of the outcome for a hangfire can be catastrophic (missing fingers, loss of an eye etc....). Even if the probability is extremely rare.......it's a high risk due to the severity of the outcome.... so protocols are taken with any low level bang or no bang.....but that's my way of looking at the risk management with regard to hang fire. Some folks hear a click and they just eject.....not me and not when I'm the ro of plate shoot sessions.

As far as a primer detonating and the powder having a delayed ignition......I've seen it happen one time many years ago. It was on the trap range. Clay is called.....poof...a tiny puff of smoke from the breech then about 2 seconds later the boom. The trap shooter did the right thing and kept the shotgun shouldered. It was an over under gun.,....had he immediately lowered the gun and opened the breech it could have resulted in an out of battery situation and injury.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Read your statement again in bold out load to yourself......if you don't understand what's wrong.....you....and your buddy....should stop using fire arms until you do.

I'll give you a hint....aw hell.....ill just let you know where your off......

lack of bang....or a bang that is not as loud as it should be......has nothing to do with exctraction.......a semi auto handgun is completely capable of extracting feeding and chambering the next round with a sqib in the bore. Usually there is a failure to extract or eject.....but the gun is capable of extracting feeding and chambering the next round.

Another question I have for you....your op said failure to eject and your second post (above) says failure to extract. Those are two different malfunctions. If the spent case is still in the chamber that's fail to extract...if the spent case is in the receiver area it's a fail to eject.


Semi autos have these functions and failure explainations in parentheses.

Feeding (new round never comes out of the magazine)

Chambering (new round doesn't go all the way into the chamber)

Locking (gun doesn't go fully into battery)

Firing (click....self explainatory)

Extracting (spent case still in chamber)

Ejecting (spent case stuck in receiver area)


Lack or low level "bang" equals stop.......clear the gun......check the bore for a squib.....every f***ing time. If that squib had been a c*** hair more into the bore your buddy would be at the ER right now.....and minus one functioning handgun.


In all seriousness.....you need to understand what happened today and follow this advice......lack of bang or lighter sounding bang......don't even attemp to fire the gun even if it cycles properly......check the damn bore first.

Listen to this

 

[Toast]

Read your statement again in bold out load to yourself......if you don't understand what's wrong.....you....and your buddy....should stop using fire arms until you do.
<SNIP>
In all seriousness.....you need to understand what happened today and follow this advice......lack of bang or lighter sounding bang......don't even attemp to fire the gun even if it cycles properly......check the damn bore first.

Dude, take a breath and dial down the assumptions. And perhaps dial down the snide at the same time, because I honestly blew over a lot of the stuff in the snip based on the lead and first few items.

Yes, I do understand, have had a non-fire (last one was a light primer hit with a dirty range gun), and have responded appropriately. Not everyone does. But the way you present your points may not be achieving the goal you're working towards.

 

[greencobra]

I RO practice plates at my club......if I hear a click its pause with muzzle downrange for a few seconds......rack and check the case.....you'll know from the spent case what the next step is like I said above. I've had 3 shooters with squibs so far this summer alone. It does happen often .

I got to commend anyone who volunteers as a ro, sometimes not a fun job, like calling balls and strikes, but very necessary. I have an experience when I was a pup shooting ipsc at pellham. I got a failure to fire in the middle of a stage, jacked the slide and saw the round come out, fully intact, bullet still in the case, and let it load another round and was going to continue my run. the ro pretty much tackled me yelling "stop." we checked for a squib but the barrel was clear. as a young shit who thought I knew everything, to say the least I was pissed. well a lot a water has gone under that bridge and I've seen some screwy stuff while shooting. I fully understand now why I was stopped and appreciate it now, but I had to grow older and wiser to understand it.

 

[whacko]

Dude, take a breath and dial down the assumptions. And perhaps dial down the snide at the same time, because I honestly blew over a lot of the stuff in the snip based on the lead and first few items.

Yes, I do understand, have had a non-fire (last one was a light primer hit with a dirty range gun), and have responded appropriately. Not everyone does. But the way you present your points may not be achieving the goal you're working towards.

Is what it is.

Sorry if your upset about how I present myself with respect to squibs. I've seen way too many shooters in my day that have no idea of the severity of the impact of a squib for one.....and add to that having no real concept of how fire arms operate.....means injury.

I can be an a**h*** sometimes.....I'll admit it......but I do think all my points are valid.

 

[whacko]

I got to commend anyone who volunteers as a ro, sometimes not a fun job, like calling balls and strikes, but very necessary. I have an experience when I was a pup shooting ipsc at pellham. I got a failure to fire in the middle of a stage, jacked the slide and saw the round come out, fully intact, bullet still in the case, and let it load another round and was going to continue my run. the ro pretty much tackled me yelling "stop." we checked for a squib but the barrel was clear. as a young shit who thought I knew everything, to say the least I was pissed. well a lot a water has gone under that bridge and I've seen some screwy stuff while shooting. I fully understand now why I was stopped and appreciate it now, but I had to grow older and wiser to understand it.

Squibs are no joke.....and I have never had a shooter get upset at me yet about how I handle a click. Well.....to my face anyway.....maybe getting cursed at behind my back but whatever.

Sent a guy home once last summer. Had a light bang and fail to extract.....I called cease fire. I thought I had seen a round impact the berm but wasn't sure......had the shooter clear the gun and check the bore. It was clear. He finished that round. Next time he came up.....puff and fail to extract again.....had him clear the gun and check the bore....squib. I asked if he was using reloads and he said yes.....I asked if he had any factory ammo or another batch to use.....he was honest and said he had only that one batch of reloads. I told him sorry but your done for the night. He didn't appear too upset but like is said......he may have cursed me out on his ride home but that's life. If you don't want to get sent home build better ammo.

 

[greencobra]

If you don't want to get sent home build better ammo.

oh, for sure. it beats a possible trip to emergency or worse, injuring someone else. good stuff and needs hammering home once in a while.

 

[Uzi2]

Good to see this topic being discussed. There are far too many shooters on ranges everywhere who don't even know what the word squib is/means much less how to recognize one and proper action to be taken.

Many a fine gun has been fubared for lack of knowledge and attention by shooters.

 

[allen-1]

Good to see this topic being discussed. There are far too many shooters on ranges everywhere who don't even know what the word squib is/means much less how to recognize one and proper action to be taken.

Many a fine gun has been fubared for lack of knowledge and attention by shooters.

I've seen a couple, one last week. That was easy to diagnose, the next round up wouldn't chamber fully because the bullet was just barely out of the chamber. So the slide wouldn't go into battery. I was watching the shooter, saw his first shot, then the second which was the squib, saw him rack the slide then stop. He came off the line with his slide locked back and went to the safe table calling for a squib rod.

Another one I was RO'ing, and again the slide wouldn't go into battery. What I didn't see after we cleared the barrel and re-assembled was that the extractor had been shattered. The shooter went to run again and his first shot went off and failed to extract. He stopped, dropped the mag and we looked at the fired casing in the chamber - that's when we realized that the extractor was gone... I offered to lend him my spare pistol, but he had his own. I felt kind of stupid for not seeing that the extractor had been broken and bringing him back to the line. I should have sent him to an empty pit to test the firearm. Lesson learned.

 

[AHM]

Good to see this topic being discussed. There are far too many shooters on ranges everywhere who don't even know what the word squib is/means much less how to recognize one and proper action to be taken.

Many a fine gun has been fubared for lack of knowledge and attention by shooters.

Only squib I've knowingly been in the presence of was at our club's short (100', usually pistol) range earlier this summer. A couple (regulars) were methodically working with the first batch of .410 (slugs) they had ever reloaded. Chrono set up (which I don't see often).

She may have been shooting one of their random handguns while he was working the shotgun.

I was all the way at the other side of the range.
After a while the noise stopped and they started muttering over the shotgun.

And then he drove off.
When we eventually went cold range, she told me what had happened.

Squib, slug still in the barrel, and they had left their cleaning rod back at the house.

When he got back they cleared the shotgun.
I don't recall if they stopped using the reloads for the session.

I'm only just now wondering if you can double-charge a .410 slug.

 

[Dennis in MA]

One day a billion years ago, my buddy and I were taking our handloads (made separately by each of us) in 45LC to test out in our Ruger Vaqueros.

Second shot, squib. No powder load on my buddy. Bullet is far enough into the forcing cone to lock things up. Can't get the cylinder out. REALLY don't wanna go hammering on a cleaning rod to re-seat a bullet in a chamber at the range. . . . or anywhere.

So while waiting for him to figure it out, I load up 5 in mine. First shot - MF'ING NO POWDER SQUIB!!!!!!

Unusual to have 2 squibs on the same day, same gun platform, DIFFERENT loaders. Have never had a handload squib again. (Had a range-ammo squib at Sig School about a half-billion years ago.)

 

[Uzi2]

Only squib I've knowingly been in the presence of was at our club's short (100', usually pistol) range earlier this summer. A couple (regulars) were methodically working with the first batch of .410 (slugs) they had ever reloaded. Chrono set up (which I don't see often).

She may have been shooting one of their random handguns while he was working the shotgun.

I was all the way at the other side of the range.
After a while the noise stopped and they started muttering over the shotgun.

And then he drove off.
When we eventually went cold range, she told me what had happened.

Squib, slug still in the barrel, and they had left their cleaning rod back at the house.

When he got back they cleared the shotgun.
I don't recall if they stopped using the reloads for the session.

I'm only just now wondering if you can double-charge a .410 slug.

A double charge would not result in a squib, so your reference to it is mute.

I've cease fired and knocked out more than 6 lodged bullets from pistol barrels on Barnstable range alone over a few years. The shooters had absolutely no clue that a bullet was lodged in their barrel. They were standing there fvcking around with their pistol trying to recharge it, completely ignoring the fact that the previous round had not fired correctly.

 

[Uzi2]

One day a billion years ago, my buddy and I were taking our handloads (made separately by each of us) in 45LC to test out in our Ruger Vaqueros.

Second shot, squib. No powder load on my buddy. Bullet is far enough into the forcing cone to lock things up. Can't get the cylinder out. REALLY don't wanna go hammering on a cleaning rod to re-seat a bullet in a chamber at the range. . . . or anywhere.

So while waiting for him to figure it out, I load up 5 in mine. First shot - MF'ING NO POWDER SQUIB!!!!!!

Unusual to have 2 squibs on the same day, same gun platform, DIFFERENT loaders. Have never had a handload squib again. (Had a range-ammo squib at Sig School about a half-billion years ago.)

Both of you need to review and revamp your reloading proceedures.

 

[AHM]

... first batch of .410 (slugs) they had ever reloaded. ... Squib, slug still in the barrel ...
...
I'm only just now wondering if you can double-charge a .410 slug.

A double charge would not result in a squib, so your reference to it is mute.

But it's not moot:

Is a no-powder/primer-only squib ever nature's way of telling you that
one of the other rounds in that batch got two powder charges?

 

[Toast]

I can be an a**h*** sometimes.....I'll admit it......but I do think all my points are valid.

I didn't say they weren't valid. I said that depending on how you present them, people may not read them.

 

[whacko]

But it's not moot:

Is a no-powder/primer-only squib ever nature's way of telling you that
one of the other rounds in that batch got two powder charges?

That all depends on what equipment you are using to reload.

 

[AHM]

Is a no-powder/primer-only squib ever nature's way of telling you that
one of the other rounds in that batch got two powder charges?

That all depends on what equipment you are using to reload.

Wait...
...you mean that this...

...has different failure modes than this...

 

[45collector]

In all my years of shooting I've had three squibs, and they've all been within the last 2 years. First two were .45acp's I had made on the single stage press. I was distracted during the charging step and somehow missed two cases. Luckily both those rounds were *popped* while just practicing at the range, and not during a match. The 3rd squib was the day after I got my .308 Garand in a trade this past winter, I brought it and some surplus Santa Barbara 7.62 NATO to the range. I've put thousands of rounds of that stuff through my FAL with zero issues and awesome accuracy. On the 2nd round of my first 8-round clip I got "click" and really didn't hear/feel any sign of a primer going off. I yanked back on the charging handle and an empty case flung out. I held the handle back for a second thinking "WTF" and then hit the clip release, dumping the remaining 6 and clip on the ground. I set the rifle on the bench, grabbed the flashlight and the bullet was stuck maybe 1" into the rifling. SONOFABITCH. Ended my range session with my new rifle after only 1 goddamn round fired because I didn't have a rifle squib rod with me.

 

[mrmike7189]

better a squib any day than a Ka- Boom!

 

[Uzi2]

better a squib any day than a Ka- Boom!

True, as long as the squib is detected and dealt with properly, because if another round is able to chamber and fire with an obstructed bore, your gift will be that Ka- Boom.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Both of you need to review and revamp your reloading proceedures.

Once I cut back to 3 beers per hour while reloading I haven’t had a problem in about 17 years.

 

[whacko]

Once I cut back to 3 beers per hour while reloading I haven’t had a problem in about 17 years.

I was just considering heading to the basement to knock out 50 rounds of 357 Magnum.....but I just remered I got two oil cans of fosters in the fridge so......

 

[Uzi2]

I was just considering heading to the basement to knock out 50 rounds of 357 Magnum.....but I just remered I got two oil cans of fosters in the fridge so......

Thats good! I don't drink when reloading either but to each their own.

The .357mag and .38spl are the two calibers that I take extra, extra care when reloading. I've found that no matter the powder being used, its far too easy to get a double charge with either of them.
I hand weigh and pour every single charge with both. Tedious, yes but it beats blowing up a nice revolver and risking injury.

 

[meh]

I load an awful lot of .38/.357 on a single stage press. I just toss the primed and belled cases in a plastic bin. They aren't standing up. Whether the charges are dropped or individually weighed makes no difference to my process. When I take a case out of the bin (tipping it down as I do), I have one job: charge the case. After I charge the case, I look into the case and see the charge. Then I place a bullet in the case mouth to "cork the bottle". The case never sits up in a position where it can hold powder without being at that moment "corked". Double charges are not reasonably possible with this process, but there is a slight risk of squibs if one starts thinking about how many bullets or cases are left to charge instead of focusing on the charging itself.

 

[whacko]

Thats good! I don't drink when reloading either but to each their own.

The .357mag and .38spl are the two calibers that I take extra, extra care when reloading. I've found that no matter the powder being used, its far too easy to get a double charge with either of them.
I hand weigh and pour every single charge with both. Tedious, yes but it beats blowing up a nice revolver and risking injury.

I do the same. I don't even have a press! I'm using a "Lee loader"! It was tedious at first but I figured out a rhythm. I can do 50 rounds in 45 minutes. Not bad for a kit that cost me $30! Oh and double charges are almost impossible.....I do it one round at a time start to finish.......powder is weighed poured and the bullet goes right in.