Showing LTC on demand.

Way way back in time , when my FID was good for life , I was with friends shooting at empty beer cans from a boat near Halfway Rock ( Cape Ann Area sort of ) , a police boat from Glouchester , maybe Beverly , came out and " carded " us.

Told us he did the same when he was bored , and warned us not to piss off the commercial fishermen or the Coast Guard , and left us to our fun.
 
The original post seems like shenanigans. I don't think the cops would go through a drawer , find a loaded handgun and say no problem.
 
Chuck said:
I am surprised that I've never been asked to show an LTC at any of the gun shows when I've been carrying and had to clear it before entering.
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Because ensuring that you are licensed isn't their responsibility. If you've ever looked at a handgun at a gun show the dealer has no doubt asked to see your LTC. The reason is that is IS his responsibility to make sure that you are duly licensed before he lets you buy a gun. Most dealers seem to routinely extend that to handling or examining one as well.
 
cja1987 said:
I echo the sentiments above. You are wayyy lucky to not get nailed with improper storage and have your firearm(s) and potentially LTC confiscated.

What the heck was the gun doing in a drawer at a friends house? Forgetting about MA safe storage BS for a second, are the homeowners licensed? If not you put them in a potentially dangerous legal situation as well as your self.

You talk about the direct control ambiguity in this state, it is not really an ambiguity in practice. Do a search here and find the many cases where it has been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, sometimes after a gun owner is a VICTIM of a crime and talks to the police too much. You are beyond lucky.

Both these incidents you describe you brought on yourself, albeit no problems resulted. If you plan on keeping that LTC in MA you better change your ways a bit starting with knowing and following the laws and ending with don't invite the cops to search the house. If your gonna be stupid and violate storage laws, tell your friends beforehand not to let the cops in or be the one at the door. You should have shut up when he asked if there were any firearms in the house, your friends did not seem to be volunteering any info. Your not lying if your not being directly spoken too. Or avoid the question, "officer here is the firecrackers we were being stupid, that is the reason for your call take them if you want, sorry about the disturbance".

On the first issue, its Massachusetts, huge stigmas surround guns, don't volunteer to any LEO that you are carrying. A few will over react. Any LEO friends of mine think that if somebody volunteers that they have a gun, they are trying to be rent a cop yahoos or show offs or looking for sympathy cause they assume the cop is a gun guy. They have always told me if they wanted to know they would ask or look it up and that they will go out of their way to give out tickets if somebody wants to be a show off about guns. Don't flame me, quoting my LEO friends; 2 locals and 1 Mass State Police.

Sorry to be harsh. Don't mean to be an A-hole but you better not act like that again unless you want your permit revoked.

I don't have any Gun/LEO stories because I don't look for trouble. Looking for trouble includes informing when not required on a traffic stop or anyplace else.
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This is the typical example of what I was talking about.[rolleyes]
 
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Garys said:
A very polite way of saying "Don't be stupid when carrying." Concealed means concealed. If someone doesn't understand that it's not unreasonable to think that the issuing authority might think that they are unsuitable. I don't particularly like the anti gun paranoia, but it's something we have to live with in this screwed up state.
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The thing is I WAS concealing. This was an honest mistake and I didn't even know the shirt had opened enough. Trust me, I've dropped a good amount of coin trying not to even print, let alone have it be visible.
 
I am surprised that I've never been asked to show an LTC at any of the gun shows when I've been carrying and had to clear it before entering.
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I've had a similar experience - I've driven into the parking lot at gun shows in full view of show staff and never been asked to show my driver's license before entering the parking lot.
 
SecondAmdFirst said:
The thing is I WAS concealing. This was an honest mistake and I didn't even know the shirt had opened enough. Trust me, I've dropped a good amount of coin trying not to even print, let alone have it be visible.
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No you weren't.

You were lucky. There is a thread on here about a guy who came out of a pizza shop carrying a pizza box and the wind blew his jacket open revealing a shoulder holstered gun. The pizza shop was directly across the street from the police station. An LEO was exiting the station and saw the gun. That indiviual lost his LTC for an extended period of time. I recall it being at least five years and he only got it back due to a change in the CLEO.

Every situation depends on the cop.
 
BostonFJ40 said:
No you weren't.

You were lucky. There is a thread on here about a guy who came out of a pizza shop carrying a pizza box and the wind blew his jacket open revealing a shoulder holstered gun. The pizza shop was directly across the street from the police station. An LEO was exiting the station and saw the gun. That indiviual lost his LTC for an extended period of time. I recall it being at least five years and he only got it back due to a change in the CLEO.

Every situation depends on the cop.
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Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. My intentions were good and I made a good faith effort. If you don't agree with that I'm not sure anything I can say would be of any use.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
I've had a similar experience - I've driven into the parking lot at gun shows in full view of show staff and never been asked to show my driver's license before entering the parking lot.
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Far more terrifying is going to the car shows at places like Bass Pro Shop. All those cars with out of state plates and private parties trying to sell their vehicles.

We need to CLOSE the "Car Show Loophole!"
 
GaryO said:
The original post seems like shenanigans. I don't think the cops would go through a drawer , find a loaded handgun and say no problem.
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It happened like it reads. You can choose to believe or disbelieve what you will, for that is your choice. And they didn't "go through a drawer, find a loaded handgun and say no problem." Re-read what I posted.

As for the rest about not doing this or not doing that...

I believe in being completley honest with people who are charged with investigating what could be a deadly encounter in their minds...These POs never know what they may be getting into, and I feel that giving them information beforehand will not lead to a surprise for them later and get their adrenaline pumped up to the point where they may start to act irrationally.

So my friends let the cops into the house, and they asked the question about guns being in the house. What do you feel the POs would think about the situation if nobody said anything and just remained silent?

Worse, what if everyone says "no, no guns here"? If the cops sense a lie and then come back the next day with a warrant to seaerch and find the gun, you think those POs are not going to be PO'ed about being lied to?

If you have done no wrong, what is wrong with volunteering freely the information they are looking for? It is not like they asked for permission to search the house. They simply asked about a gun being in the home, asked to see it, and the rest followed. Big deal? Nah.

As for improper storage, please show me the statute or law that defines what "in control of" truly means. For all intent and purpose, the firearm was in my control, even though I was not in possession of it. It was in the room I was staying at the time, I was in the room when they found it and I was licensed to own, possess, control it, etc. A firearm is licensed to the owner of it, not to a residence where it may be located.

The main thrust of my OP was that when authorities come into a potentially dangerous situation and realize that everything is copacetic, they tend to not look for the devil in the details. Cooperate and wish to not cause trouble, and the authorities will respond in kind. I was wondering if others had been involved in similar situations, and if so to share the story if they wanted. That's all.

Sheesh. Tinfoil hats, indeed.
 
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HooVooLoo, while I understand where you're coming from, the long and short of it is that more often than not the police are NOT your friends. They are professionals there to do a job. Watch this video and see if it doesn't help explain some of the perceived animosity towards law enforcement on here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE (part 2)

for the tl; dr crowd, it's a lawyer (part one) and an Actual, Honest To Goodness Police Officer (part 2) explaining exactly why you should NEVER, EVER, under ANY circumstances, talk to the police. At least not without your lawyer handy.

"Anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you, in a court of law".

EDIT:
Another good one is "BUSTED! The citizen's guide to surviving a police encounter", by those dirty pot-smoking hippies us gun owners love to hate, the ACLU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA&feature=related

Not to be confused with Chris Rock's "How to not get your ass kicked by the police", an equally-informative work that clocks in at a mere 4 minutes, compared to the 40+ of the ACLU's video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

:-D
 
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I understand where you are coming from, as well. I got about 12 mins into the first vid with the infomercial lawyer alumni spewing all that stuff about federal cases. I have no interest, or need, to view the rest of the vids, because my conscience simply will not allow me to not cooperate with an authority.

Who really cares? In the end, I'm going to die in a few more decades, but at least I will die with a clean conscience, and that to me is worth 1,000 trial cases where I am found guilty until proven innocent. All you can take with you is your intent. My intent is and always shall be honesty, whether or not I am in the wrong. If the world would learn a little more forgiveness, case-law would not be required to prove how "bad" everyone must be.
 
Hey, it's your backside on the line. While I respect (most) police officers, I feel that I can maintain and project that respect with the absolute minimum amount of verbiage and bloviating. Also, I agree with you about the smarminess of the lawyer in that first video. The second one is much shorter, and the officer is MUCH more straightforward (and entertaining, IMHO). Some of his anecdotes about just how little he has to do to get a confession are great!
 
Sorry, but I'm going to share the sentiments of others. If they don't produce a warrant they don't come inside. Period! If being cautious around someone who has the power to seriously impact your freedom and cause a significant financial burden to me as wearing a tin foil hat, so be it. There are far too many stories of people giving up their rights and paying the price for doing so, including a number of people who have done nothing wrong. It's been said many times the police are not your friend. The police have a job to do, becoming your friend is not part of their job. My interactions with a LEO that is working have been professional and courteous, but it did not involve social interaction.

I have not had a need to show my LTC for any reason. I make sure that concealed is just that.
 
SecondAmdFirst said:
Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. My intentions were good and I made a good faith effort. If you don't agree with that I'm not sure anything I can say would be of any use.
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Concealed or not concealed is black and white period. It has nothing to do with intent. If someone other than you intended saw your CCW, then it wasn't concealed.

My $.02.
 
HooVooLoo said:
A firearm is licensed to the owner of it, not to a residence where it may be located.
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That statement is not true. as an LTC holder, I can borrow your gun and use it. So, in effect, it is not licensed to you. You do own it, however. As for direct control, the gun, since accessible to anybody (including someone without a permit) is not in direct control and thus is a violation of our (stupid) safe storage laws.
 
bostonasphalt2 said:
... So, in effect, it is not licensed to you. You do own it, however. As for direct control, the gun, since accessible to anybody (including someone without a permit) is not in direct control and thus is a violation of our (stupid) safe storage laws.
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I stand corrected. You are right, it is owned, but not licensed, by an individual. I still wish we had clarification on the difference between "kept" and direct control. The term "possession" is fairly obvious, but does direct control extend beyond the point of having a key on a trigger lock? Does "kept" mean in the vicinity of the owner? How is "kept" related to "direct control"?
 
HooVooLoo said:
I stand corrected. You are right, it is owned, but not licensed, by an individual. I still wish we had clarification on the difference between "kept" and direct control. The term "possession" is fairly obvious, but does direct control extend beyond the point of having a key on a trigger lock? Does "kept" mean in the vicinity of the owner? How is "kept" related to "direct control"?
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this is why the law sucks, I can agree with you on that!
 
When I was in college, My roomate was caught doing something illegal, and the SCHOOL POLICE said to him, you can either let us search your room, or we can just hold you here, and get a warrant. If you just let us in, we''ll take a quick look...if we get a warrant, we're turning the place upside down. He didn't want a warrant, and I was in the room with a girl.... very awkward.

How exactly can you tell the cops "Im not letting you in without a warrant!" Without sounding snotty OR suspicious?!?
 
Boston_Shooter said:
How exactly can you tell the cops "Im not letting you in without a warrant!" Without sounding snotty OR suspicious?!?
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I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I don't consent to searches, sir.

Warrants are pretty specific as to what their looking for and where. A judge will also require some evidence that the LEO has reason to believe there is something illegal in the residence. In your story is sounds like a LEO babbling BS to intimidate a young kid into consenting to a search.
 
If someone other than you intended saw your CCW, then it wasn't concealed.
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This is context-sensitive and less than universally accurate. Just try that logic in an "open carry only" state if a gun is spotted under your coat. The defense of "the fact that you saw it proves it was being carried openly" will go down about as well as "the 2nd amendment is my carry permit".
 
Rob Boudrie said:
This is context-sensitive and less than universally accurate. Just try that logic in an "open carry only" state if a gun is spotted under your coat. The defense of "the fact that you saw it proves it was being carried openly" will go down about as well as "the 2nd amendment is my carry permit".
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I was speaking about the Commonwealth of Mass.
 
Boston_Shooter said:
How exactly can you tell the cops "Im not letting you in without a warrant!" Without sounding snotty OR suspicious?!?
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Why is how you sound such a concern in that situation?

"Please show me your warrant."

Follow that with "I refuse to consent to your warrantless search."

Clear. Concise. Unequivocal.
 
Scrivener said:
Why is how you sound such a concern in that situation?

"Please show me your warrant."

Follow that with "I refuse to consent to your warrantless search."

Clear. Concise. Unequivocal.
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Well, I'm just asking because i figure being viewed as suspicious, or a smart-ass by the local cops could turn out to be problematic in the long run. I've had a run in with a couple cops from a small little ass town that I really wouldn't wish on anyone, so the boys in blue leave a sour taste in my mouth, generally. (Although I have 2 really close friends who are BPD)
 
I was speaking about the Commonwealth of Mass.
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You make an interesting assertion, however, I am not aware of any MGL, CMR or court decision that establishes that your definition of "concealed" vs "unconcealed" has standing under the law - besides which, other than the "no concealed carry" for a LTC-B, there is very little in MGL that hinges on "concealed".

I'd also stick my neck out and say that someone caught with a gun under a coat carrying on an LTC-B (which allows unconcealed carry not in a motor vehicle unless restricted by the issuing authority) probably would not be able to make effective use of the "you saw it so that means it was not concealed" defense.
 
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