Showing LTC on demand.

[60 buckscash]

I was on (not my) private property (which we had permission to shoot on) when a neighbor called the local PD complaining about us. (I had ben shooting up there over 5 years.) The PD who finally showed up (2hrs later) had her daughter with her and was out of uniform. She identified herself and asked us if we had ben shooting and I said yes we had. After that she asked for LTCs, I explained I had one and my friend did not but was shooting under my "direct supervision" and I presented her with my LTC and DL. She then walked the 200yds back out of the woods where we had driven in to shoot, to her car. She never asked to see the guns or the interior of my vehicle or if I was carrying. She then returned my IDs and appologized for the situation and left.

 

[Blitz1]

The OP here is damn lucky that he didn't get bagged for improper storage. He will be even luckier if he keeps his LTC after posting the story here.

 

[GSG]

Big mistake. Never let an LEO inside your house without a warrant.

In some cases, the police can enter your home without a warrant (hot pursuit of a fleeing criminal, evictions, domestics, fires, and others); laws vary by state, as do case laws, so you're best bet is to learn the laws in your state and know your rights.

There was a guy with a Ferrari that was asked to show his LTC once....

If my memory serves me correctly, he volunteered that info without being asked.

So here we have a few examples of people somewhat openly in possession of firearms with the public and/or police, and on all counts, they were let go. This seems to confirm my experiences over the years (not my own, but observed), and that the general consensus on NES is wrong about losing a license or getting in some sort of trouble. I keep saying this, but the general answer is "you be the example". I think it is all a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing goofiness, if you ask me.

IMO the issue isn't that 99% of the time nothing will come of it. The issue is that 1% of the time, you'll lose your license, all your guns will go o a "bonded warehouse," you'll be out thousands in legal fees, and even then you might never get your license back in Mass. again. You make a good point that Mass. isn't always anti-gun, but it's a chance that most here can't afford to take.

I don't have any Gun/LEO stories because I don't look for trouble. Looking for trouble includes informing when not required on a traffic stop or anyplace else.

We'll have to disagree on the second part of this statement. I agree with part of what the OP said; sometimes it's better to volunteer and let them know before they see it to keep things calm. Some situations benefit greatly from this.

The thing is I WAS concealing. This was an honest mistake and I didn't even know the shirt had opened enough.

When I wear button down shirts with a gun under it, I leave some of the buttons undone near the bottom so that I can sweep and draw if I need to, but the shirt won't blow open every time I move.

You were lucky. There is a thread on here about a guy who came out of a pizza shop carrying a pizza box and the wind blew his jacket open revealing a shoulder holstered gun. The pizza shop was directly across the street from the police station. An LEO was exiting the station and saw the gun. That indiviual lost his LTC for an extended period of time. I recall it being at least five years and he only got it back due to a change in the CLEO.

There was also a thread on here about a guy who had a heart attack while cleaning his guns at the kitchen table, and after he was carted away in the ambulance, the cops charged him with improper storage (in his case a felony) and took his LTC. This isn't something to fool around with in Mass.

As for improper storage, please show me the statute or law that defines what "in control of" truly means. For all intent and purpose, the firearm was in my control, even though I was not in possession of it. It was in the room I was staying at the time, I was in the room when they found it and I was licensed to own, possess, control it, etc. A firearm is licensed to the owner of it, not to a residence where it may be located.

No problem. (the bold/underlined parts of my post are clickable links to the actual laws so that you can read it first hand for yourself).

The law is Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 140 Section 131L:

Chapter 140: Section 131L. Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment


Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

(b) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a firearm, rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon, by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(c) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon and such weapon was stored or kept in a place where a person under the age of 18 who does not possess a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B may have access without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(d) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is a large capacity weapon, firearm or machine gun was stored or kept in a place where a person under the age of 18 may have access, without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years, nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(e) A violation of the provisions of this section shall be evidence of wanton or reckless conduct in any criminal or civil proceeding if a person under the age of 18 who was not a trespasser or was a foreseeable trespasser acquired access to a weapon, unless such person possessed a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B and was permitted by law to possess such weapon, and such access results in the personal injury to or the death of any person.

(f) This section shall not apply to the storage or keeping of any firearm, rifle or shotgun with matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or prior to the year 1899, or to any replica of any such firearm, rifle or shotgun if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

Now that's what the state law says in Mass. Here's some recent Mass. case law for you that really explores "safe storage."

Commonwealth v. Stephen Parzick (2005)

At the trial of an indictment charging the defendant with improper storage of a firearm, in violation of G. L. c. 140, s. 131L, the evidence was sufficient to permit the jury to find guilt, where guns stored in an unlocked bedroom closet within a locked bedroom were not "secured in a locked container" as required by the statute, in that the bedroom door lock was easily defeated by anyone with a bobby pin and did not prevent ready access by anyone other than the lawful owner of the guns.

Now this is in a closet, through a locked bedroom door. But the next case is remarkably similar to yours:

Pratt v. Martineau (2006)

In a wrongful death action brought against the defendant parent, alleging that the defendant was negligent in his failure to ensure the safe storage of the gun that he had purchased for his teenage son, the judge erred in granting summary judgment in favor of the defendant, in circumstances where the risk of an accidental shooting by someone visiting or living in the son's apartment, where the son kept the loaded gun in his bureau drawer, was foreseeable to the defendant [674-676]; further, the facts set forth in the summary judgment materials were sufficient to put to the jury the question whether the defendant negligently entrusted the gun to his son while the son resided at the apartment, in light of what the defendant knew and could have known as the owner of both the gun and the apartment building [676-678], and the question whether the defendant's actions or inaction constituted reckless conduct also presented a question to be resolved by a jury [680-681].

I'm not trying to tear you apart here, but this could potentially cause you some very serious legal troubles, so you might want to edit your post.

Not to be confused with Chris Rock's "How to not get your ass kicked by the police", an equally-informative work that clocks in at a mere 4 minutes, compared to the 40+ of the ACLU's video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Such a great video.

This is about the worst state to screw up in with regards to guns.

Very true.

 

[B1511]

I have not been ask to show my LTC in MA and to date I have not been asked to for my LTC in NH...

 

[bob68]

I am surprised that I've never been asked to show an LTC at any of the gun shows when I've been carrying and had to clear it before entering.

its the same here. ive never been asked to produce my ltc at shows either by police when entering with gun. i have been asked by dealers at the shows.

 

[HooVooLoo]

In some cases, the police can enter your home without a warrant (hot pursuit of a fleeing criminal, evictions, domestics, fires, and others); laws vary by state, as do case laws, so you're best bet is to learn the laws in your state and know your rights.



If my memory serves me correctly, he volunteered that info without being asked.



IMO the issue isn't that 99% of the time nothing will come of it. The issue is that 1% of the time, you'll lose your license, all your guns will go o a "bonded warehouse," you'll be out thousands in legal fees, and even then you might never get your license back in Mass. again. You make a good point that Mass. isn't always anti-gun, but it's a chance that most here can't afford to take.



We'll have to disagree on the second part of this statement. I agree with part of what the OP said; sometimes it's better to volunteer and let them know before they see it to keep things calm. Some situations benefit greatly from this.

I know about c140 s131L, but nowhere in it is there a definition about "kept" or "under control". Those two cases you cited were certainly more severe than the incidents I was involved in. A wrongful-death suit and a theft-by-minor charge? I reckon' that the prosecution came up with those improper-storage charges just to add burden upon the defendant. After all, if you are charged with not having a valid and current FID, or are charged with wrongful death, they can tack on the improper storage issues knowing a jury would most likely just go with that flow.

I'm not concerned that I did anything wrong, but taking the advice of peeps here who obviously feel that I was a lucky one in these instances, I will be sure to tighten up my storage, keeping, or control of the guns while I am still here in Mass.

But soon I won't have to worry about all these crazy general laws and CMRs, because I'm moving the hell out of this state, to a much more gun-owner-friendlier one.

yay

 

[George D]

If you can control a gun in a drawer two stories up, then congratulations, you are NES's first telekinetic gun owner.
I think the "direct control" part gets vague in a car, but in a house, if they wanted to bust your balls, they wouldn't have had to try too hard on that one.
Unfortunately in MA, everyone starts to get scared of their own shadow and paranoid about gun laws, but I am with the "you got lucky" crowd on this one.

 

[GSG]

Those two cases you cited were certainly more severe than the incidents I was involved in. A wrongful-death suit and a theft-by-minor charge? I reckon' that the prosecution came up with those improper-storage charges just to add burden upon the defendant.

My point is twofold; one, that your guns very easily could have been involved in a wrongful death suit or a theft by a minor case, and two, that the cases lay out what the courts expect of a Mass. gun owner regarding storage.

And BTW, moving out of state doesn't mean they can't come back and charge you for that incident before the statute of limitations runs out.

Just trying to help you out.

 

[Recono]

Any LEO friends of mine think that if somebody volunteers that they have a gun, they are trying to be rent a cop yahoos or show offs or looking for sympathy cause they assume the cop is a gun guy. They have always told me if they wanted to know they would ask or look it up and that they will go out of their way to give out tickets if somebody wants to be a show off about guns. Don't flame me, quoting my LEO friends; 2 locals and 1 Mass State Police.

Sorry to be harsh. Don't mean to be an A-hole but you better not act like that again unless you want your permit revoked.

I don't have any Gun/LEO stories because I don't look for trouble. Looking for trouble includes informing when not required on a traffic stop or anyplace else.

Thank you for the information. I had always figured that that was the case with a fair number of police. Now I have some confirmation.

 

[HooVooLoo]

The "informing during a traffic stop" debate will probably rage on until it becomes law. Until then, I will continue to inform.

Get pulled over for whatever, and the LEO comes to the window and asks for the DL and registration. While you are leaning over to the glove compartment for the reg, or pulling out your wallet for the DL, the LEO sees the gun after a small shirt ride-up, or an imprint. How would the LEO react to that if you had not declared before that? A sticky situation, indeed.

As for cja's comment about his LEO friends saying they would ask or look it up, well...They could look up if the car's registrant has a LTC, but can they look up if the current driver of the vehicle has a LTC, or is possessing a concealed weapon, before they approach the window, via the license plate?

The only way I could possibly make, and have made, this decision is to try to put myself in the LEO's shoes. Would I want a declaration right off the bat, or find out by surprise?

Another way I look at it...As the person pulled over, I'd rather have to answer the question, "Why did you tell me you are legally carrying a gun" than "Why DIDN'T you tell me you are legally carrying a gun"?

 

[namedpipes]

I have a very good reason not to allow police or casual visitors into the house.

It takes 30 minutes or so to convince our dog that the visitor is not A) A snack or B) A toy.

In an incident a couple of summers ago an officer repeatedly asked to come in and I said no, couldn't he hear the ruckus?

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Originally Posted by cja1987
Any LEO friends of mine think that if somebody volunteers that they have a gun, they are trying to be rent a cop yahoos or show offs or looking for sympathy cause they assume the cop is a gun guy. They have always told me if they wanted to know they would ask or look it up and that they will go out of their way to give out tickets if somebody wants to be a show off about guns.

Discrimination is a great way to enforce laws

 

[GSG]

The "informing during a traffic stop" debate will probably rage on until it becomes law.

This is true.

 

[drgrant]

The "informing during a traffic stop" debate will probably rage on until it becomes law. Until then, I will continue to inform.

Get pulled over for whatever, and the LEO comes to the window and asks for the DL and registration. While you are leaning over to the glove compartment for the reg, or pulling out your wallet for the DL, the LEO sees the gun after a small shirt ride-up, or an imprint. How would the LEO react to that if you had not declared before that? A sticky situation, indeed.

As for cja's comment about his LEO friends saying they would ask or look it up, well...They could look up if the car's registrant has a LTC, but can they look up if the current driver of the vehicle has a LTC, or is possessing a concealed weapon, before they approach the window, via the license plate?

The only way I could possibly make, and have made, this decision is to try to put myself in the LEO's shoes. Would I want a declaration right off the bat, or find out by surprise?

Another way I look at it...As the person pulled over, I'd rather have to answer the question, "Why did you tell me you are legally carrying a gun" than "Why DIDN'T you tell me you are legally carrying a gun"?

AGNTSA.

Another horse, another day, another glue factory.

-Mike

 

[garandman]

So here we have a few examples of people somewhat openly in possession of firearms with the public and/or police, and on all counts, they were let go. This seems to confirm my experiences over the years (not my own, but observed), and that the general consensus on NES is wrong about losing a license or getting in some sort of trouble. I keep saying this, but the general answer is "you be the example". I think it is all a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing goofiness, if you ask me.

Well, there are some "nattering nabobs of negativitism" here, with seemingly endless free time.

 

[namedpipes]

http://www.ziplink.net/~drgrant/images/carl-agntsa.jpg

AGNTSA.

Another horse, another day, another glue factory.

-Mike

NOW look what you did!

You started it ALL UP AGAIN!

For shame!

Well, there are some "nattering nabobs of negativitism" here, with seemingly endless free time.

 

[seanc]

I believe in being completley honest with people who are charged with investigating what could be a deadly encounter in their minds...These POs never know what they may be getting into, and I feel that giving them information beforehand will not lead to a surprise for them later and get their adrenaline pumped up to the point where they may start to act irrationally.

So my friends let the cops into the house, and they asked the question about guns being in the house. What do you feel the POs would think about the situation if nobody said anything and just remained silent?

Why Do I get this visual..

Cop: excuse me, sir.

HooVooLoo: OK OFFICER!! I cheated on my taxes!

Cop: sir..

HooVooLoo: I have post ban high caps at my house!

Cop: Sir..

HooVooLoo: OK! I do steal office supplies from my company, but.. Only little things! pens, paper clips! nothing big!!! REALLY!

Cop; Well, I was only stopping to ask directions, but I guess now you'd better come with me..

 

[terraformer]

NOW look what you did!

You started it ALL UP AGAIN!

For shame!

Oh, I think he does it intentionally...

 

[Scrivener]

Well, there are some "nattering nabobs of negativitism" here, with seemingly endless free time.

Careful - you'll call down the wrath of the Effete Corps of Impudent Snobs - almost as bad as the Abyssinian Suicide Squad!

 

[dcmdon]

I have not read all 9 pages, but did read the first few and the last few. Sorry, but you guys really screwed up. You got very lucky.

you need to educate your friend that he should not let LEOs into his home unless they display a warrant. They will counter with something like "well we're just asking you to be polite". Politely say no.
Again, when they asked if you had any guns, the answer is "I'm not answering that questions. If you aren't comfortable with that, then you are welcome to leave MY home.".

Finally when they asked where the guns were, the answer is "they are in the house, now please leave".

Your buddy gave up so many rights based on your story, it made me cringe as I read it.
The other thing. If you are shooting long guns, in CT, you do not have to have any permits. So you do not have to present any ID if it is requested of you when shooting rifles or shot guns.

Don

 

[Blitz1]

I have not read all 9 pages, but did read the first few and the last few. Sorry, but you guys really screwed up. You got very lucky.

you need to educate your friend that he should not let LEOs into his home unless they display a warrant. They will counter with something like "well we're just asking you to be polite". Politely say no.
Again, when they asked if you had any guns, the answer is "I'm not answering that questions. If you aren't comfortable with that, then you are welcome to leave MY home.".

Finally when they asked where the guns were, the answer is "they are in the house, now please leave".

Your buddy gave up so many rights based on your story, it made me cringe as I read it.
The other thing. If you are shooting long guns, in CT, you do not have to have any permits. So you do not have to present any ID if it is requested of you when shooting rifles or shot guns.

Don

Ummm, I always read the whole thread before I comment. It's just common sense. I suggest you do the same.

 

[Mr.T]

Don't be so eager to tell people you own guns and/or are carrying a gun is all I've got to say. The more information you freely offer up, the more situations like these you will find yourself in, and the higher the chance of one of them turning out badly for you.

I try and treat my LTC A like a Fight Club membership card. And we all know the first (and second ) rule of Fight Club...

 

[GSG]

Why Do I get this visual..

We've discussed this topic recently, see the quoted text below.

a bad case of blabbermouth

Ironic, actually.

And we all know the first (and second ) rule of Fight Club...

Don't make a movie about Fight Club?