Securing ammunition

[BillO]

I have my cellar divided into two parts; a finished portion and the other is for tools and the like. In that room is my reloading bench and some ammo. Do you think installation of a lockable door in between these rooms would satisfy the “locked container” requirement?

 

[squarooticus]

I have my cellar divided into two parts; a finished portion and the other is for tools and the like. In that room is my reloading bench and some ammo. Do you think installation of a lockable door in between these rooms would satisfy the “locked container” requirement?

Is locking up ammunition even required by MA law?

I've always wondered about how far "locked container" goes. If I live alone, does my locked bedroom qualify as a "locked container", thus allowing me to leave a loaded gun on my nightstand, as long as I don't go to the bathroom without it?

Kyle

 

[wchandler]

Or a closet with a lock on the door knob (not one of the push ones, one with a key). Does that qualify! I feel like I read somewhere that it does, but I am not positive.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ammo storage requirements for locking it up are part of the State Fire Marshal's CMRs, enforced by your local fire chief, not the police department!

If in doubt, talk with your fire chief, since it all depends on him wrt what passes muster.

Tech info on the actual Regs can be found with an Advanced Search in the Gun Laws forum. here.

 

[Cross-X]

Or a closet with a lock on the door knob (not one of the push ones, one with a key). Does that qualify! I feel like I read somewhere that it does, but I am not positive.

In Massachusetts, if you are going to declare a locked room, or, I believe, a locked closet, to be a secure container for proper firearms storage, it must be "secured by a lock sufficient to deter all but the most determined of burglars."

It is up to gun owners to correctly imagine how a district court juge in Massachusetts will interpret that phrase.

Darius Arbabi
www.massgunlaw.com

 

[KMaurer]

Darius, the case law you cite applies to firearm storage, but I doubt that it would carry too much weight with respect to ammunition storage. One would constitute a violation of a statute regarding firearms, the other a CMR on fire safety. Of course, since this is the People's Republic of Massachusetts, advice to expect the worse is always sensible.

Ken

 

[Cross-X]

Ken,

Please reread my post, and also the post I was responding to. The original poster was inquiring about firearms storage, not ammunition storage.

I would advise anyone planning to use a locked room as their secure storage should do so only with great caution, consideration, and the advice of knowledgeable firearms counsel.

If one choses a locked room as secure storage, one must be confident the method used will satisfy the professional concerns of a law enforcement officer who happens to be in your home either with probable cause or under exigent circumstances.

Get it right and you are golden. Get it wrong you'll risk embarassment, criminal prosecution and many sleepless nights of anxiety, uncertainty and heartache.

If one has a fondness for a fortified, burglar alarmed, dead-bolted locked room for secure firearms storage, one could do that. Even inside of a properly secured locked room, I also recomend the use of an additional mechanical locking device designed to prevent unauthorized use of those stored firearms.

I prefer that my clients take a conservative approach to secure firearms storage, and, by doing so, deftly avoid inadvertently placing themselves on the wrong side of the law.

Darius Arbabi
www.massgunlaw.com

 

[Len-2A Training]

Darius, Ken, et al:

One of the hazards of a "rambling thread"!

OP was BillO asking strictly about AMMO STORAGE.

Then to muddy the waters , Squarooticus opined about a "locked room" for storing a LOADED HANDGUN!

Both are valid questions, but the proper answers may well be different wrt to ammo (fire chief) vs. guns (police chief and DA).

To our readers: Please take Darius' comments to heart! He is one of the most knowledgeable gun rights attorneys in MA and knows of what he speaks (writes).

 

[FPrice]

Even inside of a properly secured locked room, I also recomend the use of an additional mechanical locking device designed to prevent unauthorized use of those stored firearms.

I am glad to see that someone else (of stature even) does something I do. Most of the firearms which I use on a regular basis have some sort of "tamper-proof" mechanical locking device attached even when in the safe. That way when I take them out, I have such a locking device immediately available in case I have to put them down for a while so that they are never left unsecured.

This practise can be looked at two different ways. Either as mindless obediance to draconian gun laws which only penalize honest people or as good safety practises to protect my high value items which demonstrate my level of personal responsibility and just might tip the scales in my favor in case there is ever a (legal) question concerning my observance of laws.

I think the latter is more defensible in my case.

 

[BillO]

Ammo storage

I was asking about ammo storage only, though my gun safe is in the same area. I thought that locking up the entire room was a better idea than attempting to lock up every speck of powder, primers, loaded ammo and projectiles. I have a couple of young kids and came to a logical conclusion that keeping the ENTIRE room off llocked and off limits would be the prudent thing to do. I want to comply with legal storage requirements as well, but my main concern is the children. Want to be compliant, leagal and safe.

 

[FPrice]

I thought that locking up the entire room was a better idea than attempting to lock up every speck of powder, primers, loaded ammo and projectiles.

That is probably a very good idea. If it can be done properly.

 

[drgrant]

One interesting thing on ammo storage....

Apparently most fire chiefs most not care, given that dealers generally
speaking, leave the ammo right out on the shelves, and so on. Course
most of those shops probably have the extra permitting required to store
large amounts of ammo, so in exchange for paying for the license, they
basically get ignored. I suppose one could also argue that the ammo
is "in use" because it is in a retail environment where it is being sold.

Also, FWIW, I've never heard of anyone ever getting charged on
CMRs for improper ammo storage... but that doesn't mean it couldn't
happen.

I have heard of one case where a fire department decided to let a guys
house burn up (in MA) because he was known to be a major reloader
or something. (If anyone has the details on that guy, please post it... would be
interesting reading... all I saw was some crappy newspaper
story about it.) Of course, he could have still been within the law
and the FD could still have made that decision based on a few
factors... although ammo in and of itself doesnt create a huge
hazard... but if part of the house exploded while they were fighting the
fire, I can see why they would just let the place burn down.

Course after going in a few different MA gun stores, it looks like most of
them get a free pass on safe storage as long as there is an individual in
attendance with the firearms. A lot of them leave the long guns unsecured
when they lock up their store... so apparently that's enough to satisfy the
"secure container" notional, at least for them. It's possible the local
PD/FD figures that the store has enough BS to go through just to operate
as it is.

I doubt a room would do the same for an individual, unless the room where
your guns are in is basically a vault, or otherwise reinforced to prevent
theft.

-Mike

 

[Emoto]

How do you know those long arms are unsecured when they lock up?

 

[drgrant]

How do you know those long arms are unsecured when they lock up?

Uhhh, because they're just sitting on racks when the store opens and
closes? Most gun stores don't have enough safe capacity to put all their
long guns in "secure containers".

I would presume though, that most stores are okay due to the added
security measures usually in place. Most of them have reinforced doors, bars
on windows, and a halfway decent burglar alarm. That would -appear- (judging by
what Darius mentioned earlier) to satisfy the requirement for
the store being it's own "container".

-Mike

 

[Lxpony]

527 CMR 13.04: Licenses, Registrations, Permits and Certificates

http://www.goal.org/misc/faq/powder.html

This law makes no reference to the penalties or fines for not following it....

 

[Len-2A Training]

527 CMR 13.04: Licenses, Registrations, Permits and Certificates

http://www.goal.org/misc/faq/powder.html

This law makes no reference to the penalties or fines for not following it....

The ONLY fine/penalty comes when there is a fire or other incident (it could be a police call for a break-in) and your insurance company pulls a report which states that you were in non-compliance. Then the insurance company pulls out the fine print and refuses to pay for any loses due to your non-compliance. This was in-fact told to me by my fire chief recently.