Must AMMUNITION COMPONENTS or ANTIQUES be Locked Up ?

[CaseHardened]

I admit the recent law that Modern Cartridge Ammunition be kept locked up caught me by surprise. As a LTC Holder I would have preferred the State mail me a Notice in advance. Anyways, I am in compliance.

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But do Ammunition Components also need to be locked up ?

Empty Casings, Propellant, Primers, Bullets ?

I know in Mass you must hold an FID or LTC to even possess them.

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Antique Firearms: from the ATF:

[FONT=&amp]For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term [/FONT]“Antique Firearms”[FONT=&amp] means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[/FONT]Do these need to be locked up ?

It used to be that Antique Firearms were NOT technically firearms at all. And that anyone could own them.

And since they are not firearms, they could be carried by anyone - even open carry (don't try this).

Are Antique Ammunition Components still considered Ammunition Components ?

You need a FID or LTC to own a Minie Ball dug from a Civil War Battlefield ?

 

[Mike-Mike]

I admit the recent law that Modern Cartridge Ammunition be kept locked up caught me by surprise. As a LTC Holder I would have preferred the State mail me a Notice in advance. Anyways, I am in compliance.

---

But do Ammunition Components also need to be locked up ?

Empty Casings, Propellant, Primers, Bullets ?

I know in Mass you must hold an FID or LTC to even possess them.

---

Antique Firearms: from the ATF:

[FONT=&]For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term [/FONT]“Antique Firearms”[FONT=&] means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[/FONT]Do these need to be locked up ?

It used to be that Antique Firearms were NOT technically firearms at all. And that anyone could own them. Yes

And since they are not firearms, they could be carried by anyone - even open carry (don't try this).

Are Antique Ammunition Components still considered Ammunition Components ? If they could be used yes.

You need a FID or LTC to own a Minie Ball dug from a Civil War Battlefield ? Not if it is so deformed that it cannot fit in the rifle. At that point it isn't a cartridge component and is just a cool piece of scrap lead.

I'll bite..

 

[CaseHardened]

Technically I don't believe Minie Balls were ever used in Cartridges, but were just an advanced Musket Ball.

But the question remains - is a Musket Ball an Ammunition Component ?

 

[MisterHappy]

Under Mass, law, Powder, Cap and Ball for Primitive arms need no FID to possess. You need an FID or better to purchase. This does not apply to 209 Primers for in-line BP arms, as they are "modern" components.

Under that, then I'd say that it does not need to be locked up.

There are storage limits for the powder, however.

Massprudence, however, is another story.....

Antique arms are exempt from "safe storage" requirements (no locks required)

So, a Minne Ball is not "ammo", as it was/is for a primitive firearm.

A fired metallic cartridge is, however, "ammo" per state law, and should be treated as such.


Section (p)

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129c

 

[Mike-Mike]

Technically I don't believe Minie Balls were ever used in Cartridges, but were just an advanced Musket Ball.

But the question remains - is a Musket Ball an Ammunition Component ?

I believe it is in MA.

 

[CaseHardened]

"You need a FID or LTC to own a Minie Ball dug from a Civil War Battlefield ? Not if it is so deformed that it cannot fit in the rifle. At that point it isn't a cartridge component and is just a cool piece of scrap lead."

You say that, and it is common sense, but some teenager in Fitchburg got arrested for a Punk Belt made with Casings, and I believe there was another case when someone was busted for owning a Cartridge Shell with a hole drilled through it - making it inoperable.

There was another thread on this that listed a whole bunch of items that require a License to own in Mass - including novelty Bottle Openers made from real casings.

 

[Mike-Mike]

"You need a FID or LTC to own a Minie Ball dug from a Civil War Battlefield ? Not if it is so deformed that it cannot fit in the rifle. At that point it isn't a cartridge component and is just a cool piece of scrap lead."

You say that, and it is common sense, but some teenager in Fitchburg got arrested for a Punk Belt made with Casings, and I believe there was another case when someone was busted for owning a Cartridge Shell with a hole drilled through it - making it inoperable.

The kid with the drilled out case took an unfair beating and had a sucky attorney.

 

[CaseHardened]

A fired metallic cartridge is, however, "ammo" per state law, and should be treated as such.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129c

Are you saying the spent casings we collect to reload or sell as scrap need to be locked up ?

- - - Updated - - -

The kid with the drilled out case took an unfair beating and had a sucky attorney.

But if he knew it was illegal he probably would never have bought one.

He's probably prohibited from owning a gun, now.

It's a lot like the clowns who assume a gun in the Center Console or GloveBox is ok. Or on their Night Stand.

Knowledge is Power.

 

[MisterHappy]

I am not saying that.

Under state law, ammo must be secured. Components are "ammo". I'm sure that everyone follows all applicable laws.


Hmm....I wonder if the dumpsters are locked up, after 300 people shoot at 300 Trap targets at one venue, in one day. I'm sure it is.

Of course, once the trash man picks them up, since he's a "common carrier", he needs no license.

 

[CaseHardened]

Why is this silly stuff important ?

Because there is certainly a chance that you or a member of your family will get sick and an EMT, or even LEO will enter your house.

Or - your children will tell their Teachers or ex-wife that Daddy has a big bucket of Bullets in the cellar.

Don't give your enemies ammo.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Can't most of this discussion be answered by searching the forum? It's one of the half dozen or so questions that pops up on regular intervals.

 

[CaseHardened]

Can't most of this discussion be answered by searching the forum? It's one of the half dozen or so questions that pops up on regular intervals.

Probably.

But stuff gets lost, and all too often searching by THREAD yields nothing.

Searching by POST delivers too much.

And, the Laws DO change.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Probably.

But stuff gets lost, and all too often searching by THREAD yields nothing.

Searching by POST delivers too much.

And, the Laws DO change.

Search the site using Google. Just put "site:northeastshooters.com" after the search term. And honestly, many of the laws on storage here in MA haven't changed in a long time

 

[jpm]

Are you saying the spent casings we collect to reload or sell as scrap need to be locked up ?.

based on my personal experience, no. I had the pd at my house taking a report for something and they asked about the bucket of brass I had in my garage in plain sight. They knew I had a valid LTC so possession was not an issue, and they didn't say anything about locking it up or otherwise securing it.

IMO, if you're getting charged with possessing a spent cartridge or musket ball, you've done a LOT worse to get yourself in trouble and that's an add-on bonus charge. No DA is going to waste the courts' time on that as a standalone charge.

 

[CaseHardened]

based on my personal experience, no. I had the pd at my house taking a report for something and they asked about the bucket of brass I had in my garage in plain sight. They knew I had a valid LTC so possession was not an issue, and they didn't say anything about locking it up or otherwise securing it.

IMO, if you're getting charged with possessing a spent cartridge or musket ball, you've done a LOT worse to get yourself in trouble and that's an add-on bonus charge. No DA is going to waste the courts' time on that as a standalone charge.

And this dude ?

On December 27, 2012 at Fitchburg State University in Massachusetts, just a few days after the Sandy Hook massacre in the neighboring state of Connecticut, former Fitchburg student Andrew Despres, age 20, was arrested and held on $50,000 bond for what media outlets report was wearing a fake ammunition belt on campus.

http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/01/05/fashion-statement-or-terror-fake-gun-belt-intimidates-college-administrators/

It was not even AMMUNITION COMPONENTS. It was Fake Plastic Bullets !!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ammo and components must be secured from "unauthorized access" (unlicensed people).

Since they consider a spent shell casing (even a .22) as components, it is unwise to allow unlicensed people access to them.

Antiques don't have to be locked up.

I don't know enough wrt black powder arms to give an answer on the minie balls, as I have not tried to study any laws wrt those components.

CMR under the Fire Dept dictates that all ammo, primers, & powder must be locked up at all times when not in use. Ref: 527 CMR 1.0 and specifies acceptable quantities with no ammo/powder permit and with said permit.

 

[jpm]

Did you even read the story?? That was Not what prompted his arrest, it was an add-on charge...

"[FONT=&quot]Despres had previously been expelled from the university for marijuana use and carrying an illegal edged weapon on campus. He had been banned from campus and was advised by University Police that they must escort him back to campus if he wished to pick up his belongings.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Despres ignored that directive and returned to campus without contacting police. He was actually arrested for trespassing"

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

And this dude ?

On December 27, 2012 at Fitchburg State University in Massachusetts, just a few days after the Sandy Hook massacre in the neighboring state of Connecticut, former Fitchburg student Andrew Despres, age 20, was arrested and held on $50,000 bond for what media outlets report was wearing a fake ammunition belt on campus.

http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/2013/01/05/fashion-statement-or-terror-fake-gun-belt-intimidates-college-administrators/

It was not even AMMUNITION COMPONENTS. It was Fake Plastic Bullets !!

 

[JAD]

Ammo and components must be secured from "unauthorized access" (unlicensed people).

Since they consider a spent shell casing (even a .22) as components, it is unwise to allow unlicensed people access to them.

Antiques don't have to be locked up.

I don't know enough wrt black powder arms to give an answer on the minie balls, as I have not tried to study any laws wrt those components.

CMR under the Fire Dept dictates that all ammo, primers, & powder must be locked up at all times when not in use. Ref: 527 CMR 1.0 and specifies acceptable quantities with no ammo/powder permit and with said permit.

It is important to remember that 527 CMR 1.00 defines ammunition differently than MGL c. 140 s. 121 does. The definition in 527 CMR 1.00 is much more specific, and presents itself to apply to cartridges rather than the assembly or its components as described in MGL c. 140 s. 121. That CMR section regulates "small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder." The term small arms ammunition is specifically defined to refer to "(3) Small arms ammunition, as used here, shall mean any shotgun, rifle, or pistol cartridge and any cartridge or propellant actuated devices, excluding military ammunition containing bursting charges or incendiary, tracer, spotting, or pyrotechnic projectiles."

 

[Glockster30]

To show the absurdity in response to I believe the 2004 MA AWB law, remember when GOAL forced the state house to have all wall hanging muskets to have locks installed to them?

[FONT=&quot]So on Dec. 4, GOAL director Michael Yacino asked the state police to investigate why a pair of Revolutionary War muskets were still hanging on the wall of the historic Senate chamber beneath the golden dome of the 200-year-old State House. The law allows no exceptions, he wrote in a statement.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After an investigation, police ballistics experts said the five-foot-long guns could be fired - but only if someone could bypass the full-time Senate court officers and climb a 10-foot ladder to reach the guns. They'd also need a powder horn and lead balls. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So this week, the muskets were taken to be fitted with trigger locks while craftsmen build secure display cases, said Alison Franklin, spokeswoman for Senate President Thomas Birmingham. The guns will be returned within a few weeks, Franklin said, but the bill for the work hasn't been presented yet. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The GOAL press release brought to our attention the issue of gun safety Concerning the historical items in the Senate chamber," Franklin said. "The Senate President believes the child-safety goal of the legislation is laudable. The overriding goal of the gun legislation is about making the commonwealth a safer place, and that ought to be adhered to, even in the Senate chamber." [/FONT]

http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/Politics/pol70.htm

 

[teaser452]

based on my personal experience, no. I had the pd at my house taking a report for something and they asked about the bucket of brass I had in my garage in plain sight. They knew I had a valid LTC so possession was not an issue, and they didn't say anything about locking it up or otherwise securing it.

IMO, if you're getting charged with possessing a spent cartridge or musket ball, you've done a LOT worse to get yourself in trouble and that's an add-on bonus charge. No DA is going to waste the courts' time on that as a standalone charge.

But in this instance you weren't doing anything else wrong and you weren't a jerk. Also, the officer probably didn't know that the law changed in 2015. Ammo components and ammo must now be locked up. (A lot of people I know had no idea that was now the case. One friend of mine had thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds laying around his house and basement. I spent a day with him gathering it all up and locking it up. Showed him the new law and explained the consequences.).

In in regards to the black powder ammo components, this gets brought up every year on the hunting forum. We call muzzleloader season 'felony hunting season'. So, you can buy the muzzleloader and the bullet without a license but need a license to buy the 209a primer and the powder. So the argument is every year that felons can't hunt with muzzleloader she cause they'd be in possession of ammo.

But, all of the EPOs and all of the town cops I have run into are either not enforcing it or don't know the law. One of my good friends is an EPO and he says he'd never bust someone for it unless they were also violating other hunting laws.

So, hunt at your own risk if you're a felon and want to shoot deer with muzzloaders.

The laws are, as has been discussed here relentlessly, overly complicated and selectively enforced.

 

[M1911]

But in this instance you weren't doing anything else wrong and you weren't a jerk. Also, the officer probably didn't know that the law changed in 2015. Ammo components and ammo must now be locked up. (A lot of people I know had no idea that was now the case. One friend of mine had thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds laying around his house and basement. I spent a day with him gathering it all up and locking it up. Showed him the new law and explained the consequences.).

What statute is this?

 

[Len-2A Training]

What statute is this?

As I'm sure that you know what he posted is wrong.

1998 law mandated that everything must be secured from unlicensed people.

2015 was the CMR (Fire Dept) for quantities and mandated locked up for all. PRIOR to that if you did NOT have a FD permit, everything had to be locked up (no change), but if you had a permit you did NOT have to lock it up per FD. I'm sure this was an oversight, but see above wrt unlicensed access which is enforceable by PD.

 

[CaseHardened]

BULLET - PRISON

FISHING SINKER - NO PRISON

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Makes perfect sense

 

[M1911]

1998 law mandated that everything must be secured from unlicensed people.

Sorry for being dense. While I'm aware that you must be licensed to possess ammunition components, I'm not aware of anything in the MGL that specifies that a licensee must secure their ammo. Could you point me to the chapter and section?

2015 was the CMR (Fire Dept) for quantities and mandated locked up for all. PRIOR to that if you did NOT have a FD permit, everything had to be locked up (no change), but if you had a permit you did NOT have to lock it up per FD. I'm sure this was an oversight, but see above wrt unlicensed access which is enforceable by PD.

What are the penalties for violating the CMR?

 

[MisterHappy]

But in this instance you weren't doing anything else wrong and you weren't a jerk. Also, the officer probably didn't know that the law changed in 2015. Ammo components and ammo must now be locked up. (A lot of people I know had no idea that was now the case. One friend of mine had thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds laying around his house and basement. I spent a day with him gathering it all up and locking it up. Showed him the new law and explained the consequences.).

In in regards to the black powder ammo components, this gets brought up every year on the hunting forum. We call muzzleloader season 'felony hunting season'. So, you can buy the muzzleloader and the bullet without a license but need a license to buy the 209a primer and the powder. So the argument is every year that felons can't hunt with muzzleloader she cause they'd be in possession of ammo.

But, all of the EPOs and all of the town cops I have run into are either not enforcing it or don't know the law. One of my good friends is an EPO and he says he'd never bust someone for it unless they were also violating other hunting laws.

So, hunt at your own risk if you're a felon and want to shoot deer with muzzloaders.

The laws are, as has been discussed here relentlessly, overly complicated and selectively enforced.

Please provide a cite. In a previous post, I cite the MGL that provides an exemption from FID/LTC being required for possession of powder, cap and ball. Possession of a 209 primer is a different matter: FID/LTC required for that. Also, FID/LTC is required for purchase in the PRM - out of state, not an issue.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sorry for being dense. While I'm aware that you must be licensed to possess ammunition components, I'm not aware of anything in the MGL that specifies that a licensee must secure their ammo. Could you point me to the chapter and section?

What are the penalties for violating the CMR?

From Glidden's 4th Edition, Notes for C. 140 S. 121 (Definitions):

1. Ammunition: While muzzleloaders are generally exempt from licensing requirements, their ammunition components are generally considered ammunition for the purposes of section 121. However, section 129C(p) exempts the carrying and possession of "so-called black powder rifles and shotguns and ammunition therefore" from the licensing requirements of both residents and non residents. As such, muzzleloading powder, primers, and bullets for such rifles and shotguns would not require an FID Card or LTC to possess or carry and could even be possessed or carried by an otherwise disqualified or prohibited person. The exemption does not however appear to allow purchasing of such ammunition, or the possession or carrying of such ammunition when used in or with a so-called black powder handgun.

Another find - I don't recall if this topic was in this thread or another one, but here it is (same source) C. 140 S. 123 Notes:

2. Pre-ban Assault Weapons: Clause 16th allows for sale by a dealer of any assault weapon lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. This clause does not specify that it was possessed in Massachusetts at that time. Therefore, a pre-ban assault weapon lawfully possessed even in another state could be legally transferred though a dealer in Massachusetts.

Of course you will never convince most dealers who are paranoid about the Elisabeth Ryan allegation and unsigned/undated memo.

On the legality of possession of ammo w/o a LTC/FID (same source) C. 140 S. 129C:

C. 140 § 129C Possession of Firearms, Exemptions, and Exhibiting LTC or FID on Demand
No person, other than a licensed dealer or one who has been issued a license to carry a pistol or revolver or an exempt person as hereinafter described, shall own or possess any firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unless he has been issued a firearm identification card by the licensing authority pursuant to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine B.
No person shall sell, give away, loan or otherwise transfer a rifle or shotgun or ammunition other than (a) by operation of law, or (b) to an exempt person as hereinafter described, or (c) to a licensed dealer, or (d) to a person who displays his firearm identification card, or license to carry a pistol or revolver.

Classification: Misdemeanor (felony for 3rd and subsequent offenses)
Penalty: $500 - $1000 first offense
$2,500 - $7,500 for second offense
$7,500 - $10,000 or 1-5 years imprisonment for 3rd or subsequent offenses

Notes for the above section:

1. License or Exemption Required: This section requires a person who is not a dealer to have a FID Card, LTC or be an exempt person to possess rifle, shotgun, firearm or ammunition.

There may be more info but I'm not digging any deeper today.

I'll contend that the above makes it illegal for you to allow access to unlicensed people since LE/DA will almost certainly prosecute you if you don't secure it and an unlicensed person is caught with ammo or components under the above provisions.

Unsure of penalties in the CMR (FD), but it's all here in the Sticky I created.
https://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/271760-MA-Ammo-Components-Storage-CMR-2015

 

[teaser452]

Please provide a cite. In a previous post, I cite the MGL that provides an exemption from FID/LTC being required for possession of powder, cap and ball. Possession of a 209 primer is a different matter: FID/LTC required for that. Also, FID/LTC is required for purchase in the PRM - out of state, not an issue.

You're correct without me having to provide a cite. Since 209a primer is considered 'modern' you need an FID to possess. The bolder part you quoted from me is the discussion I have every year with people during and before muzzleloader season. Most people I've run in to don't think you need an FiD/LTC to hunt with a muzzleloader using a 209a cap. I say they do under current law. But then, when I talk to my EPO buddy, he said he'd never bust anyone for it and most of his fellow EPOs would t. One year during muzzleloader, 8 of us came out of the woods and were greeting by local cops. They only asked for hunting permits. Didn't ask for any LTCs or FIDd. Which is good considering 2 of the guys with us had misdafelonies for DUI from a decade ago. And they were using modern inline muzzleloader. So I think the confusion here was I didn't specify what type of muzzleloader, modern online or really old fashioned cap and ball style.

 

[teaser452]

What statute is this?

I guess I'll add to the confusion and cite what Lens cited. The CMR regulation that says ammo needs to be locked up. Unless you have a permit. I'm not sure why he stated I was wrong and proceeded to cite the CMR law showing I'm right, but not under MGL. Now I am thoroughly confused because Lens says I was wrong but then responds to you citing that I was right under the CMR. Clear as mud to me.

Further, how many people have fire department permits? Reloaders I'm sure have them. But for most of us not reloading? I don't know anyone. Maybe they do and just have never mentioned it.

I also don't know what the penalty is for being busted under the CMR, but being Massachusetts, I'd be leery of a bad chief yanking your LTC for not complying.

The other thing I've always wondered is house insurance if the ammo isn't properly stored (according to law, at least). Would an insurance company try to get out of paying a claim for a house fire that leveled the house? I dunno.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I guess I'll add to the confusion and cite what Lens cited. The CMR regulation that says ammo needs to be locked up. Unless you have a permit. I'm not sure why he stated I was wrong and proceeded to cite the CMR law showing I'm right, but not under MGL. Now I am thoroughly confused because Lens says I was wrong but then responds to you citing that I was right under the CMR. Clear as mud to me.

Further, how many people have fire department permits? Reloaders I'm sure have them. But for most of us not reloading? I don't know anyone. Maybe they do and just have never mentioned it.

I also don't know what the penalty is for being busted under the CMR, but being Massachusetts, I'd be leery of a bad chief yanking your LTC for not complying.

The other thing I've always wondered is house insurance if the ammo isn't properly stored (according to law, at least). Would an insurance company try to get out of paying a claim for a house fire that leveled the house? I dunno.

OLD CMR only required ammo to be locked up if you did NOT have a powder/ammo permit. NEW CMR requires everyone to have their ammo locked up. Ammo = loaded ammo, primers, powder when dealing with the CMR.

MGL merely requires that no unlicensed parties have access to guns/mags/ammo/components (much wider definition than above) unless under direct supervision of a LTC/FID holder.

FD and PD don't usually talk, in fact there is a lot of hatred/jealousy amongst police for firefighters . . . believing that they get paid to sleep all day/evening. FDs that dispatch EMTs/Paramedics hardly get time to breath these days. I listen to the scanners whenever in my office and they are oftentimes doing multiple runs at the same time in the burbs.

In case of a loss, expect your insurance company to investigate all aspects of your life before determining whether or not you will be covered and for what/how much. Failure to comply with fire regulations (I BELIEVE - not tested and not going to when it costs me $5 and 2 Emails every 5 years to comply) can easily be an issue. How big an issue? Not certain but don't care to test it.

 

[Peicemaker]

Hate to resurrect an old thread, but I'd like some clarification on the black powder arms question. So from my read of this thread, antiques aren't subject to storage requirements. Are all muzzle loading flintlock and percussion arms legally considered antiques, and therefore not subject to storage requirements, even if they were not manufactured prior to 1898?