Sale/Purchase of magazines (AKA ammunition feeding devices)

[spt_1955]

I hate to be a PR--K about it but my understanding of MA Laws is that you must have a valid MA LTC in order for me to sell you a magazine (AKA Ammunition Feeding Device).

Applicable law is MGL Chapter 140 Section 131E

Section 131E. Any resident of the commonwealth may purchase firearms, rifles, shotguns and ammunition feeding devices from any dealer licensed under section 122, or from such person as shall be qualified under section 128A, or ammunition from a licensee under section 122B, subject to the following conditions and restrictions:
(a) rifles, shotguns and feeding devices therefor may be so purchased only upon presentment of: (i) a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B; or (ii) a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms issued under section 131; or (iii) valid proof of exempt status under section 129C;.....

note : Bold type is my addition

Am I wrong????

 

[Len-2A Training]

IANAL but my reading on it is that a dealer can't sell ANY "ammo feeding device" to someone who doesn't have a LTC/FID, unless exempt under S. 129C.

However, it is my understanding that ANYONE can possess a low-capacity mag and that they aren't "controlled items". Large-cap mags is VERY different story (must possess MA LTC to possess them).

I'm unaware of any prosecutions wrt selling mags although plenty of dealers have sold post-ban large-cap mags to ordinary people (usually telling them that they are pre-ban).

Myself, I won't sell any large-cap mags to anyone w/o seeing a LTC (if done in MA) nor will I ship them, just to be on the safe side.

 

[spt_1955]

IANAL but my reading on it is that a dealer can't sell ANY "ammo feeding device" to someone who doesn't have a LTC/FID, unless exempt under S. 129C.

However, it is my understanding that ANYONE can possess a low-capacity mag and that they aren't "controlled items". Large-cap mags is VERY different story (must possess MA LTC to possess them).

I'm unaware of any prosecutions wrt selling mags although plenty of dealers have sold post-ban large-cap mags to ordinary people (usually telling them that they are pre-ban).

Myself, I won't sell any large-cap mags to anyone w/o seeing a LTC (if done in MA) nor will I ship them, just to be on the safe side.

THen I'll assume that mags less than 10 rounds are not going to get me in trouble without an LTC although MGL (c)140 (s)131E seems pretty clear about "feeding devices" and does not differentiate between capacity.

 

[MisterHappy]

There are many stupid parts like this in the MGLs. For instance, there is no LTC/FID requirement for possession of powder, cap and ball for a "primitinve" (non-fixed cartridge) firearm ("firearm" in this context meaning handguns and long guns), but you need an FID/LRC to purchase the stuff.

Whether you need an FID/LTC for a 209 primer for an in-line muzzleloader is another matter.

 

[jpm]

I'm pretty sure there's a requirement for at least FID for powder

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm pretty sure there's a requirement for at least FID for powder

Cite, please?

BTW, just to be clear, my post was for powder for primitive firearms, not stuff that uses smokeless.

 

[Lank]

What about the old .22 tube rifle speed loaders?

Massprudence tells me you need FID

 

[jpm]

Cite, please?

BTW, just to be clear, my post was for powder for primitive firearms, not stuff that uses smokeless.

you're talking about black powder, which is an explosive not a propellant like smokeless btw, and is an ammunition component so would certainly require a license/permit of some sort.

From GOAL
"Even though a person does not need any license to purchase or possess a primitive arm, one must show proof of majority (over 18) for purchase or possession. There are no reporting requirements for antique firearms either at the federal level (Form 4473) or at the state level (F/A-10). Because of conflicts in state law, however, a Massachusetts dealer will ask for a license or card in order for you to purchase ammunition for the primitive arm"

From the fish & wildlife website (http://www.eregulations.com/massachusetts/huntingandfishing/massachusetts-gun-laws/)

"No gun license is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12-14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex."

 

[johnN]

see above

 

[pochito413]

Hey i ordered some 10 rd mags from stag and never sent any form of id

 

[teaser452]

Whether you need an FID/LTC for a 209 primer for an in-line muzzleloader is another matter.

Ah, this is the annual debate during shotgun and muzzle season!

We like to call it felony hunting season. 'Cause all the poor guys who pled guilty to a DUI in MA have had their gun rights unconstitutionally stripped forever, still get to hunt with a muzzleloader and actually fire it with a 209 primer. (We do encourage them to stop drinking by 2 am for a morning hunt. Safety first!)

So, so far as I know, possession of 209 primer is just fine in MA with no license. Never had a EPO ask for a LTC/FID in muzzleloader season.

http://www.eregulations.com/massachusetts/huntingandfishing/massachusetts-gun-laws/

No gun license is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12-14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex.

But then, to make it even less clear, this story from last year!

http://www.capecodtimes.com/article/20141209/NEWS/141209521

Sean Houle, 47, was charged with unlawful possession of ammunition/primer, carrying a dangerous weapon/spring-loaded knife, unlawful possession of a firearm and careless or negligent use of a weapon causing injury.


​

So, two glaring problems I see here. Charged for possession of the primer, but also charged with unlawful possession of a firearm! Not this is whacked, because the first "firearm" I bought, pre LTC, was a muzzleloader from Dicks! My buddy bought the ammo right behind me and handed the ammo to me when we got out of the store! So....people buying muzzleloaders are criminals without licenses...

What I also didn't understand about that story is....buckshot was what the guy got shot with? So, a shotgun was used? Or was it a muzzleloader and can you get buckshot for a muzzleloader? and would it work? The charges make no sense when compared to the reported facts. But it is the cape cod times where they likely pay their reporters in peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Man I hate this F-ing state. And sorry for slightly derailing this thread.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Police chiefs and licensing officers are being taught that a LTC or FID IS required to possess 209 primers as they are conventional ammo components regardless of how you decide to use them.

Not every muzzle loader or primitive weapon uses 209 primers, so the laws were not written with 209 muzzle loaders in mind.

EPOs may use "reasoning" but don't count on that wrt those that wear blue or black uniforms in MA!

 

[teaser452]

It's not surprising that Police chiefs and police officers are being taught false information.

MGL 140-129C(p)

The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:

(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.

which leads to https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

Seems awfully plain to me that ammo used in black powder guns is exempt. At least in MA. Though I thought someone had once told me that the US Supreme court ruled that Muzzlelloaders were in fact firearms, and therefore, felons, or PPs can't possess them or their ammo.

So, I guess the bottom line is, from what I understand, and spending much of my day idling google-fuing it, is that PPs cannot own or have the ammo. But a non PP who has no LTC/FID in MA is fine to own/possess them and their ammo.

But who the hell really knows until you spend a few years of your life and likely several hundred K to get a ruling in court.

As we tell the guys who come with us hunting using muzzleloader, don't be a dink, and you'll be fine. Good advice in every situation.

 

[knfmn]

Ah, this is the annual debate during shotgun and muzzle season!

We like to call it felony hunting season. 'Cause all the poor guys who pled guilty to a DUI in MA have had their gun rights unconstitutionally stripped forever, still get to hunt with a muzzleloader and actually fire it with a 209 primer. (We do encourage them to stop drinking by 2 am for a morning hunt. Safety first!)

So, so far as I know, possession of 209 primer is just fine in MA with no license. Never had a EPO ask for a LTC/FID in muzzleloader season.

http://www.eregulations.com/massachusetts/huntingandfishing/massachusetts-gun-laws/

No gun license is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12-14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex.

But then, to make it even less clear, this story from last year!

http://www.capecodtimes.com/article/20141209/NEWS/141209521

Sean Houle, 47, was charged with unlawful possession of ammunition/primer, carrying a dangerous weapon/spring-loaded knife, unlawful possession of a firearm and careless or negligent use of a weapon causing injury.


​

So, two glaring problems I see here. Charged for possession of the primer, but also charged with unlawful possession of a firearm! Not this is whacked, because the first "firearm" I bought, pre LTC, was a muzzleloader from Dicks! My buddy bought the ammo right behind me and handed the ammo to me when we got out of the store! So....people buying muzzleloaders are criminals without licenses...

What I also didn't understand about that story is....buckshot was what the guy got shot with? So, a shotgun was used? Or was it a muzzleloader and can you get buckshot for a muzzleloader? and would it work? The charges make no sense when compared to the reported facts. But it is the cape cod times where they likely pay their reporters in peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Man I hate this F-ing state. And sorry for slightly derailing this thread.

Buckshot is just that: buckshot. It is round (usually) lead balls, commonly used for hunting and/or defense. They make muzzleloading shotguns, as well as rifles and pistols. Like this one.

The unlawful possession of a firearm charge could have come from the type of blackpowder gun he was using. There are a couple of different companies that make muzzle loading barrels that replace the regular barrel on shotguns. Like this one If he was using one of those, then he still had a firearm, whether it was currently set up to be used with smokeless ammunition or not.

As far as some black powder firearms being considered modern firearms, that has to do with felons and what they can and cannot own. Felons are allowed to own firearms that were built before or are replicas of firearms that were built before 1898. They aren't allowed to own the more modern in-line blackpowder firearms, mostly because they use shotgun primers. Explanation

IANAL and this is not any sort of legal advice.

 

[MisterHappy]

you're talking about black powder, which is an explosive not a propellant like smokeless btw, and is an ammunition component so would certainly require a license/permit of some sort.

From GOAL
"Even though a person does not need any license to purchase or possess a primitive arm, one must show proof of majority (over 18) for purchase or possession. There are no reporting requirements for antique firearms either at the federal level (Form 4473) or at the state level (F/A-10). Because of conflicts in state law, however, a Massachusetts dealer will ask for a license or card in order for you to purchase ammunition for the primitive arm"

From the fish & wildlife website (http://www.eregulations.com/massachusetts/huntingandfishing/massachusetts-gun-laws/)

"No gun license is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12-14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex."

Please provide a cite for the bolded part in you first paragraph.

None of the stuff you posted shows that an FID/LTC is required for possession of black powder or pyrodex. Which is what I stated.

If you don't have a cite, please don't muddy the waters with "require a license/permit of some sort."


Yes, it's required to purchase in Mass; but, an adult can go over the border to NH, buy the stuff and bring it back, all lawfully, without being n FID/LTC holder.