SBR stuff

[bigblue]

Based on the purple crap you wrote, I don't feel safe with you having the ability to vote. Despite any proof, conviction, or record, not only do I think you shouldn't vote but I think that you should be stripped of all rights and deported.

Honestly, and this comes from the very depths of my heart, go **** yourself.

You are so indoctrinated by the progressive hell hole that you live in that you think LEO should arbitrarily be able to strip people of rights? Go. ****. Yourself.

 

[dcmdon]

Without giving legal advice- a properly drafted will could be used as a tool for estate planning with respect to individually owned property. A serious collector looking to protect truly high value items would want to have a good sit-down with a lawyer to discuss benefits and concerns of different vehicles and make an informed decision about what is best for their specific situation.

A properly done NFA trust would eliminate any transfers, taxes, questions, etc. The firearm is owned by the fictional entity and continues to be owned by it after the death of the "owner". It solves bequeathment problems because it eliminates bequeathment.

I'm not an attorney. But I've used them in the creation of trusts and LLCs for various purposes and I can tell you that a properly drafted Will will not do for you what a properly drafted trust can do insofar as easing (or eliminating) the steps that must be taken when the "owner" or settlor dies.

And yes, if you just own a SBR and a couple of cans, then a trust created by a friends copy of Quicken Will Maker will do just fine. But if you intend to buy MGs, then a properly drafted trust/llc/s-corp/corp is what you want.

The guy in CT who represents the guntrustlawyer.com franchise specializes in estate planning as his normal practice focus. I'm sure he is up to the job. His name is Jeff Crown. He's a good guy as well as a gun nut. I met him shooting IDPA.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

Either way, I'm starting to think this rule is actually good overall.

Her's why.

1) It slightly increases the hassle for those savvy NFA fans who already have trusts. These people will continue to purchase NFA items. Count me in that group. I can whip up a form 1 in about 10 minutes.
2) It eliminates a significant barrier to entry for many people who are not savvy with respect to NFA firearms. These people may have been scared away in the past by the intimidation of getting a CLEO sign-off or the perceived complexity of setting up a trust.

Don

 

[71montess]

Bullshit, the new "rules" are for you boot lickers who want more gov control, good for you. I have no problem with the trust route and would prefer it to remain . My fingerprints, photos have a direct impact on my choice so F off all you who like this new shit, you deserve it.

 

[travis]

A properly done NFA trust would eliminate any transfers, taxes, questions, etc. The firearm is owned by the fictional entity and continues to be owned by it after the death of the "owner". It solves bequeathment problems because it eliminates bequeathment.

I'm not an attorney. But I've used them in the creation of trusts and LLCs for various purposes and I can tell you that a properly drafted Will will not do for you what a properly drafted trust can do insofar as easing (or eliminating) the steps that must be taken when the "owner" or settlor dies.

And yes, if you just own a SBR and a couple of cans, then a trust created by a friends copy of Quicken Will Maker will do just fine. But if you intend to buy MGs, then a properly drafted trust/llc/s-corp/corp is what you want.

The guy in CT who represents the guntrustlawyer.com franchise specializes in estate planning as his normal practice focus. I'm sure he is up to the job. His name is Jeff Crown. He's a good guy as well as a gun nut. I met him shooting IDPA.

Don

Your assertion that a quality trust is only necessary if you buy a mg is absurd. If you have one can or a collection of MG's it is going to SUCK if your trust is found invalid cause you chose to play with quicken instead of getting a lawyer in the field of NFA to draft a proper trust and all the items you own are seized..

 

[travis]

Either way, I'm starting to think this rule is actually good overall.

Her's why.

1) It slightly increases the hassle for those savvy NFA fans who already have trusts. These people will continue to purchase NFA items. Count me in that group. I can whip up a form 1 in about 10 minutes.
2) It eliminates a significant barrier to entry for many people who are not savvy with respect to NFA firearms. These people may have been scared away in the past by the intimidation of getting a CLEO sign-off or the perceived complexity of setting up a trust.

Don

You a closet liberal? Slightly my a$$ it makes a already PITA process much more so. One of many reasons being we have no idea about how exactly it will be implemented. Are you aware that in many places LE's CHARGE to do fingerprint cards? Also how does one purchase a NFA item on a form 1?

 

[bigblue]

One thing you boot lickers are ignoring is the risk in providing your most personal details (everything short of dna) to a federal government who has a history of security breaches.

I for one have no desire to give my name, id, fingerprints, and photo to the Chinese .gov or some 14 yr old hacker with a penchant for identity theft. Pass.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Four things.

1. WTF is with the colors? They don't even display on my iPad, and those that do actually hurt to look at.
2. Anecdotal evidence (at best) doesn't support a statement establishing the motive of the "vast majority" of NFA Trust owners.
3. NFA Trusts have been around since the NFA was established in 1934. There is no documented "problem" with CLEOs not knowing trustee names/identities. Having the ATF know what my registered NFA weapons are and having some locally-elected possible buffoon know them are two wildly different things.
4. Last, and this is probably me just being petulant, but I've decided my new policy from now on is to ignore any comments by non-green contributors. If you don't care enough about the site to support it, "I got nothing for you."

If point number 4 is your new policy, why don't you just leave the forum and don't come back? It's not like you wanted to engage in an actual discussion in the first place, you went straight to full **** mode. This forum doesn't need people like you.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Based on the purple crap you wrote, I don't feel safe with you having the ability to vote. Despite any proof, conviction, or record, not only do I think you shouldn't vote but I think that you should be stripped of all rights and deported.

Honestly, and this comes from the very depths of my heart, go **** yourself.

You are so indoctrinated by the progressive hell hole that you live in that you think LEO should arbitrarily be able to strip people of rights? Go. ****. Yourself.

You did a great job of trying to bring him to your side! Instead of being an arrogant ass, how about you actually address what he said and provide a counter point? Instead you decided to just be a dick. Way to contribute! *sigh*

 

[bigblue]

You did a great job of trying to bring him to your side! Instead of being an arrogant ass, how about you actually address what he said and provide a counter point? Instead you decided to just be a dick. Way to contribute! *sigh*

I was venting not arguing. Trying to convince someone like that is akin to convincing a tree to pick up its roots and move out of your way.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Boy, do I have a headache. Jack.

 

[dcmdon]

Your assertion that a quality trust is only necessary if you buy a mg is absurd. If you have one can or a collection of MG's it is going to SUCK if your trust is found invalid cause you chose to play with quicken instead of getting a lawyer in the field of NFA to draft a proper trust and all the items you own are seized..

You say my point is absurd, then you don't give any justification. There is a HUGE difference between making sure that a trust is correct when it owns $30,000 M16 and making sure it is correct when you own $500 worth of cans.


Once your form 1 or 4 is approved, the scrutiny ends. If the ATF doesn't like your trust docs, they will kick back the Form 1 or 4. Nobody is going to seize anything. If your estate has trouble with the valueless SBR lower and your $300 .22 can, then so be it. No big deal.

Its all about risk and reward. My point is that it may be worth rolling the dice on a Quicken trust if all you intend to put in it is a SBR and a can.

It is definitely not worth rolling the dice if you are going to put any comginations of things of any significant value into it.

So again, since you don't seem to understand this. The problems with a bad trust come up 1) when you send in form 1 or 4. 2) when you die.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

You a closet liberal? Slightly my a$$ it makes a already PITA process much more so. One of many reasons being we have no idea about how exactly it will be implemented. Are you aware that in many places LE's CHARGE to do fingerprint cards? Also how does one purchase a NFA item on a form 1?

Dude calm down.

They reduced the hassle in one area and increased it in another. The area they reduced the hassle will likely get more new people into owning NFA items.

Your ignorance is showing. A Form 1 is used to MAKE (not buy) a NFA item. It could be as simple as registering an existing AR lower as a SBR or as complex as building a silencer.

Don
07 FFL / Class 2 SOT

- - - Updated - - -

One thing you boot lickers are ignoring is the risk in providing your most personal details (everything short of dna) to a federal government who has a history of security breaches.

I for one have no desire to give my name, id, fingerprints, and photo to the Chinese .gov or some 14 yr old hacker with a penchant for identity theft. Pass.

You are already doing a 4473 and any state required paperwork, at the time you pick up the NFA item. Although admittedly there is not check when doing a form 1 or buying from a non-licensee on a form 4.

 

[dcmdon]

Bullshit, the new "rules" are for you boot lickers who want more gov control, good for you. I have no problem with the trust route and would prefer it to remain . My fingerprints, photos have a direct impact on my choice so F off all you who like this new shit, you deserve it.

This thread should win some kind of award for number of petulant, insulting tirades by people who can't have a civilized disagreement. Go back to ar15.com

Don

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Dude calm down.

They reduced the hassle in one area and increased it in another. The area they reduced the hassle will likely get more new people into owning NFA items.

Your ignorance is showing. A Form 1 is used to MAKE (not buy) a NFA item. It could be as simple as registering an existing AR lower as a SBR or as complex as building a silencer.

Don
07 FFL / Class 2 SOT

- - - Updated - - -



You are already doing a 4473 and a NICS check with the transfer at the time you pick up the NFA item. Although admittedly there is not check when doing a form 1 or buying from a non-licensee on a form 4.

For NFA items, 4473, yes, NICS check, no. Jack.

 

[dcmdon]

Thanks for the correction. I haven't done a retail nfa transfer in a couple of years. At one point the ATF's NFA handbook said you had to do one. Of course question 22 on the 4473 lays it all out. I'll correct my comment.

 

[JAD]

For NFA items, 4473, yes, NICS check, no. Jack.

Correct, with respect to individual purchases, unless state law requires otherwise (like Pennsylvania and Connecticut).

ATF procedures currently requires a NICS check on any person picking up a firearm on behalf of a trust or other business entity.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Can on e-file a Form 4 with a trust? I was not able to find it.

 

[drgrant]

Bullshit, the new "rules" are for you boot lickers who want more gov control, good for you. I have no problem with the trust route and would prefer it to remain . My fingerprints, photos have a direct impact on my choice so F off all you who like this new shit, you deserve it.

Well, it's not going to remain so throwing a temper tantrum like a bunch of window lickers having an episode isn't going to change it back. One curse got traded for another, we get it... but ironically I think in the long run this will work out in terms of getting more people more NFA items, particularly unwashed people who didn't have trusts.

This thread should win some kind of award for number of petulant, insulting tirades by people who can't have a civilized disagreement. Go back to ar15.com

Don

Not to mention people are arguing about shit that we have no real power to change. Particularly given that 95% of NFA collectors won't give a shit one way or the other when the dust finishes settling.

-Mike

 

[ScottS]

Can on e-file a Form 4 with a trust? I was not able to find it.

Not yet. They turned Form 4s off almost immediately after eFile was rolled out, IIRC. Supposedly, it's "on the list" to come back.

I think I'd prefer Form 3s to go electronic first. That seems easy. But eForm 4s will be a huge boost.

 

[UncleDuke]

My understanding is that ITAR only applies if you are selling and exporting.

 

[bigblue]

My understanding is that ITAR only applies if you are selling and exporting.

And/or but I suppose to export you must sell and my understanding is that it is specific to selling what has been manufactured. Otherwise you are just working up prototypes so why would you pay a commerce fee? $0.02 INAL

 

[UncleDuke]

What commerce fee? My understanding is that manufacturer of NFA firearms (i.e., SBR, SBS, suppressors, AOW, and machineguns) is tax-free except for the annual SOT. If you are exporting you have to obtain an export license and register with the Department of State. If you know something I don't, please advise.

 

[bigblue]

What commerce fee? My understanding is that manufacturer of NFA firearms (i.e., SBR, SBS, suppressors, AOW, and machineguns) is tax-free except for the annual SOT. If you are exporting you have to obtain an export license and register with the Department of State. If you know something I don't, please advise.

I was referring to ITAR as a perjorative "commerce fee" wrt the export of defense articles.

 

[71montess]

I've got an old Marlin 336 maybe this just because ?https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YXc0rm6dzVs

 

[RockMaple]

My understanding is that ITAR only applies if you are selling and exporting.

Engaging in manufacturing OR exporting is sufficient to require registration. See ITAR §122.1: "any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with DDTC. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Engaging in manufacturing OR exporting is sufficient to require registration. See ITAR §122.1: "any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with DDTC. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

A small detail often overlooked by small scale 07 FFLs, particularly those who have created manufacturing concerns to support their hobby rather than to actually produce commercially viable products.

 

[RockMaple]

A small detail often overlooked by small scale 07 FFLs, particularly those who have created manufacturing concerns to support their hobby rather than to actually produce commercially viable products.

At their own peril. ITAR is no joke, with penalties including fines of up to $1,000,000 and prison time of up to 20 years. I just helped an 07/02 with their business formation, and ITAR fees far more than my legal fee and the state filing fees combined. And it's paid annually, so it should really be thought of as a tax.

 

[Varmint]

There are two main ways to make and register an NFA item using a Form 1 - as an individual, and as a legal entity (corporation, trust, etc.). Historically trusts have been useful for a variety of reasons, but with the upcoming changes from ATF 41P, some of those reasons will be going away.

Here is how they work NOW:
Individual: You file a Form 1 using your own individual name. On the form you must provide photos, fingerprint cards, and get a signature from your chief of police.
Trust: You establish a trust either through a lawyer you hire or though one of the many services online that generate NFA trusts. Once the trust is established, you can use for any number of NFA items. You file a Form 1 using the trust name, and sign as a trustee of the trust. You do not need to provide photos, fingerprint cards, or get a signature from the chief of police.

Here is how things will work after July 13, 2016 (when the new ATF 41P rule goes into effect):
Both Individual and Trust Form 1s must provide photos and fingerprints. Trusts must provide them for all Responsible Persons on the trust. The requirement for chief of police signature has been eliminated, now you must only notify them.

So as you can see, going the trust route was useful to save the effort of getting photos and fingerprints done, as well as getting signatures from the chief of police. Soon there will be no need for signatures, and you will have to provide photos and fingerprints regardless of whether you file individually or as a trust.

- - - Updated - - -

Form 4 if you have an existing SBR transferred to you. Form 1 if you are making an SBR yourself.

Is a trust better if you do multiple items like a 2nd SBR? i.e. would a trust save you having to send in photos and fingerprints each time?

Trust: You establish a trust either through a lawyer you hire or though one of the many services online that generate NFA trusts. Once the trust is established, you can use for any number of NFA items. You file a Form 1 using the trust name, and sign as a trustee of the trust. You do not need to provide photos, fingerprint cards, or get a signature from the chief of police.

So people with an existing trust now have to get everyone on the trust fingerprinted and photographed - that's ridiculous, no wonder you guys are mad.

 

[ScottS]

Is a trust better if you do multiple items like a 2nd SBR? i.e. would a trust save you having to send in photos and fingerprints each time?

Trust: You establish a trust either through a lawyer you hire or though one of the many services online that generate NFA trusts. Once the trust is established, you can use for any number of NFA items. You file a Form 1 using the trust name, and sign as a trustee of the trust. You do not need to provide photos, fingerprint cards, or get a signature from the chief of police.

So people with an existing trust now have to get everyone on the trust fingerprinted and photographed - that's ridiculous, no wonder you guys are mad.

Not true. The change to 41P (now 41F) is not retroactive. If the trust never acquires another NFA item, there will be no need for photos/prints. That's part of the reason the mad dash is on to get Forms submitted prior to 13 Jul 16.