Converting pistol to SBR in MA? Why not more popular?

[Bostonbbop]

Hi!

I recently saw a Iver Johnson 1911 Carbine at a store and thought "This would be awesome if it was an SBR and had a stock that was more ergonomic and not totally ugly".

(See 1911A1 Carbine for the ugly duckling in question.)

And so I started researching. I wanted to confirm what I think I've found - It is possible to turn any legal pistol in MA into a legal SBR with a form 1, $200, and an added stock.

If so, why isn't this more popular? I've never heard of or seen one in MA.

The only catch I can see is that you can't turn it back into a pistol?

Thanks!

 

[PappyM3]

Hi!

I recently saw a Iver Johnson 1911 Carbine at a store and thought "This would be awesome if it was an SBR and had a stock that was more ergonomic and not totally ugly".

(See 1911A1 Carbine for the ugly duckling in question.)

And so I started researching. I wanted to confirm what I think I've found - It is possible to turn any legal pistol in MA into a legal SBR with a form 1, $200, and an added stock.

If so, why isn't this more popular? I've never heard of or seen one in MA.

The only catch I can see is that you can't turn it back into a pistol?

Thanks!

It’s not real popular outside of MA either. Except with pistols based off of carbines to begin with.

To clarify though, in MA you can’t turn “any” legal pistol into a legs SBR. It’s possible that a pistol can meet the AWB feature restrictions in pistol form, but turning it into a rifle would violate AWB rifle feature restrictions.

For your example, it would be fine. And you could temporarily turn it back into a pistol by removing the stock. Then transport it across state lines without permission or to a state that prohibits SBRs. But to turn it back into a pistol permanently, that involves the ATF and I don’t know the process off the top of my head.

I bet a 1911 carbine would be fun at the range. You should do it and share pics.

 

[connor]

Hi!

I recently saw a Iver Johnson 1911 Carbine at a store and thought "This would be awesome if it was an SBR and had a stock that was more ergonomic and not totally ugly".

(See 1911A1 Carbine for the ugly duckling in question.)

And so I started researching. I wanted to confirm what I think I've found - It is possible to turn any legal pistol in MA into a legal SBR with a form 1, $200, and an added stock.

If so, why isn't this more popular? I've never heard of or seen one in MA.

The only catch I can see is that you can't turn it back into a pistol?

Thanks!

A lot of cool SBR’s violate multiple pistol AWB rules and they’re off-roster so you’d need to be buying them in SBR form and that’s a long process. In NH or most anywhere else you can buy a KP9 or an mp5 clone or an ar pistol and shoot it buck naked or with a brace until your stamp comes back. Here you’d have to find someone with the right sot, get them to agree to hold onto it for a year plus, then have them engrave it and slap the stock on.

There’s probably a market for that with an enterprising ffl but also MA has a repressed gun culture so people aren’t apt to try their luck or venture outside of their m&p shield and 870.

People see any box fed semi rifle or a pistol that isn’t a 1911 at even private clubs and go “I thought those were illegal”

 

[drgrant]

Hi!

I recently saw a Iver Johnson 1911 Carbine at a store and thought "This would be awesome if it was an SBR and had a stock that was more ergonomic and not totally ugly".

(See 1911A1 Carbine for the ugly duckling in question.)

And so I started researching. I wanted to confirm what I think I've found - It is possible to turn any legal pistol in MA into a legal SBR with a form 1, $200, and an added stock.

If so, why isn't this more popular? I've never heard of or seen one in MA.

The only catch I can see is that you can't turn it back into a pistol?

Thanks!

It's very popular, just most people don't talk about it.

 

[drgrant]

A lot of cool SBR’s violate multiple pistol AWB rules and they’re off-roster so you’d need to be buying them in SBR form and that’s a long process. In NH or most anywhere else you can buy a KP9 or an mp5 clone or an ar pistol and shoot it buck naked or with a brace until your stamp comes back. Here you’d have to find someone with the right sot, get them to agree to hold onto it for a year plus, then have them engrave it and slap the stock on.

There’s probably a market for that with an enterprising ffl but also MA has a repressed gun culture so people aren’t apt to try their luck or venture outside of their m&p shield and 870.

All I'm going to say is "there are ways" and they're legal. This is typically big kids club stuff though, not for flints and laze types though.

(nsfw)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wUS_bbOHY

People see any box fed semi rifle or a pistol that isn’t a 1911 at even private clubs and go “I thought those were illegal”

Maybe at some of the shitty loop clubs, sure, but get outside the inner loops and things look different.

 

[PappyM3]

…In NH or most anywhere else you can buy a KP9 or an mp5 clone or an ar pistol and shoot it buck naked or with a brace until your stamp comes back. Here you’d have to find someone with the right sot, get them to agree to hold onto it for a year plus, then have them engrave it and slap the stock on….

Nope. My Massachusetts SP5 was not bought as an SBR, nor as a rifle to cut down. And my form 1 took ~3 weeks. All legal and on the up and up.

 

[connor]

All I'm going to say is "there are ways" and they're legal. This is typically big kids club stuff though, not for flints and laze types though.

(nsfw)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20wUS_bbOHY




Maybe at some of the shitty loop clubs, sure, but get outside the inner loops and things look different.

“Big kids club stuff not for flints and laze types” is exactly my point lol. That’s why there aren’t a lot of NFA items kicking around ma, at least not that I’ve seen.
Technically I’m outside the loop but it’s all loop mentality people.
You mention there’s prebans in the box at your lgs to some people and they treat it like you’re giving them the secret knock to a dope house.

Nope. My Massachusetts SP5 was not bought as an SBR, nor as a rifle to cut down. And my form 1 took ~3 weeks. All legal and on the up and up.

Not be that guy but an sp5 takes a mag outside the pistol grip and weighs over 50oz.

Is that codified in law or is that healy notice bullshit?

 

[PappyM3]

Not be that guy but an sp5 takes a mag outside the pistol grip and weighs over 50oz.

Is that codified in law or is that healy notice bullshit?

Codified. Look at the MGL definition of a firearm. Look at what people in this state do with frame transfers. You just keep it as a receiver that is incapable of firing a shot until you get that SBR stamp and can put the stock on.

 

[AMV]

“Not be that guy but an sp5 takes a mag outside the pistol grip and weighs over 50oz.

Is that codified in law or is that healy notice bullshit?

But without a lower with the grip and bolt installed is it still a AW

 

[Bostonbbop]

Thanks folks! If I make it happen I will post pictures.

 

[Bostonbbop]

To clarify I was thinking of converting a pistol already on the roster. I understand what folks are saying about frame transfers but for this there are plenty of guns on the roster that I think would be awesome to convert. Especially with a custom wood stock that has ammo / mag storage.

 

[drgrant]

To clarify I was thinking of converting a pistol already on the roster. I understand what folks are saying about frame transfers but for this there are plenty of guns on the roster that I think would be awesome to convert. Especially with a custom wood stock that has ammo / mag storage.

fwiw nobody who knows how to SBR something cares about the roster the roster isn’t even toilet paper at that point.

 

[Shevchenko]

Hi!

I recently saw a Iver Johnson 1911 Carbine at a store and thought "This would be awesome if it was an SBR and had a stock that was more ergonomic and not totally ugly".

(See 1911A1 Carbine for the ugly duckling in question.)

And so I started researching. I wanted to confirm what I think I've found - It is possible to turn any legal pistol in MA into a legal SBR with a form 1, $200, and an added stock.

If so, why isn't this more popular? I've never heard of or seen one in MA.

The only catch I can see is that you can't turn it back into a pistol?

Thanks!

just give me 150 bucks and don't do it. cheaper and less embarrassing haha

 

[MGnoob]

It’s sad I’ve forgotten so much about fire arm laws.
I stopped paying attention to the laws because they keep moving the goalpost.
I also haven’t bought a firearm in forever.All my stuff was bought from the store and or approved by the ATF.

Buying registered Sears was a great move because it give me so much flexibility.

I don’t remember why I got my SBR. I think it was so that I could have my RDIAS installed on the beltfeds and still have an SBR for the M203.

I’d say there’s less SBRs in Massachusetts because it’s Massachusetts and most gun owner are more clueless then I am currently.

 

[DarkJoker33]

Instead of a new thread, I was having a discussion with someone about the legality of AR pistols.

I was saying you cant get them legally in ma.

And they were saying the opposite.

Anyone care to shed any light?

 

[CrackPot]

A lot of cool SBR’s violate multiple pistol AWB rules and they’re off-roster so you’d need to be buying them in SBR form and that’s a long process. In NH or most anywhere else you can buy a KP9 or an mp5 clone or an ar pistol and shoot it buck naked or with a brace until your stamp comes back. Here you’d have to find someone with the right sot, get them to agree to hold onto it for a year plus, then have them engrave it and slap the stock on.

There’s probably a market for that with an enterprising ffl but also MA has a repressed gun culture so people aren’t apt to try their luck or venture outside of their m&p shield and 870.

People see any box fed semi rifle or a pistol that isn’t a 1911 at even private clubs and go “I thought those were illegal”

You cannot buy a SBR from a dealer in MA. A SBR is a "firearm" under MA law and therefore subject to the roster. No SBRs are on the roster.

No, you dont need anyone to hold something for a year+. No, they cannot slap a stock on the pistol for you. The legal way to do this is to purchase parts and Form 1 it yourself and have it engraved and make it into a SBR yourself. No one can make the SBR for you.

We have guided people into doing their own Form 1s in excess of 500 times in the last 3 years. We have an electronic finger printing machine in the shop so we can take prints and print finger print cards for our customers. We have services to engrave the guns and can do necessary compliance work.

“Big kids club stuff not for flints and laze types” is exactly my point lol. That’s why there aren’t a lot of NFA items kicking around ma, at least not that I’ve seen.
Technically I’m outside the loop but it’s all loop mentality people.
You mention there’s prebans in the box at your lgs to some people and they treat it like you’re giving them the secret knock to a dope house.


Not be that guy but an sp5 takes a mag outside the pistol grip and weighs over 50oz.

Is that codified in law or is that healy notice bullshit?

The pistol AWB never comes into play. The customer buys parts of a pistol, not the pistol itself. They then do a Form 1 and ultimately build a SBR. A SBR is subject to the rifle AWB definition so is relatively easy to meet the requirements.

 

[wcorey]

Instead of a new thread, I was having a discussion with someone about the legality of AR pistols.

I was saying you cant get them legally in ma.

And they were saying the opposite.

Anyone care to shed any light?

Either fixed magazine to avoid the detachable magazine outside the grip thing or extensively skeletonized to get under 50oz.

 

[Lxpony]

Just saw this thread and am glad Crackpot replied already. There are FFLs in MA that will happily 4473 a "assault pistol" to any MA resident holding a LTC under the understanding that the pistol will remain in pieces until its deemed a rifle by the ATF ( Form 1). At that point you slap a stock on it and make sure the stock is pinned and no flash hider and thus the gun is 100% MA Compliant. It's actually very simple. I know a guys with scorpions, mpx, apc9k etc that went this route. Let's not make the possible seem impossible @connor or @PappyM3

 

[Lxpony]

It’s not real popular outside of MA either. Except with pistols based off of carbines to begin with.

To clarify though, in MA you can’t turn “any” legal pistol into a legs SBR. It’s possible that a pistol can meet the AWB feature restrictions in pistol form, but turning it into a rifle would violate AWB rifle feature restrictions...

I'm pretty sure a B&T TP9 would be MA compliant as-is. Just block the mags and find an ffl who knows the laws to do the transfer

 

[PappyM3]

…Let's not make the possible seem impossible @connor or @PappyM3

I detailed how easy it was for me to SBR my SP5 using the same process that Crackpot outlined.

I'm pretty sure a B&T TP9 would be MA compliant as-is. Just block the mags and find an ffl who knows the laws to do the transfer

Yeah, for a TP9, you could either fix the mag or fix the stock if you wanted to SBR it. Though, I’d argue either solution would be stupid and completely counter to most reasons for owning a TP9

But an example of what I’m talking about, P320 in. Flux Defense Raider chassis. As a pistol, it meets all the restrictions so that it does not violate the AWB. But it has a telescoping brace. If one were to SBR it, say because of the upcoming brace ban, then it would become an illegal assault weapon rifle because it would become a telescoping stock. Sure, one could pin the stock open, but that would be ridiculous.

 

[DarkJoker33]

Either fixed magazine to avoid the detachable magazine outside the grip thing or extensively skeletonized to get under 50oz.

Well both of those are pointless.
Better off with the sbr

 

[CrackPot]

Either fixed magazine to avoid the detachable magazine outside the grip thing or extensively skeletonized to get under 50oz.

Ive seen people go fixed mag. It makes a pretty pointless weapon when you can just go SBR.

Keeping under 50oz is doable but not your only hurdle. You also CANNOT HAVE A BARREL SHROUD (handguard). So sure, you can build it with polymer lower and ultra light parts, but in the end you cannot cover the barrel and gas tube but have to leave them naked; otherwise you still have an assault weapon.

So overall pretty pointless...

 

[PappyM3]

Ive seen people go fixed mag. It makes a pretty pointless weapon when you can just go SBR.

Keeping under 50oz is doable but not your only hurdle. You also CANNOT HAVE A BARREL SHROUD (handguard). So sure, you can build it with polymer lower and ultra light parts, but in the end you cannot cover the barrel and gas tube but have to leave them naked; otherwise you still have an assault weapon.

So overall pretty pointless...

I think just about the one fun use of a light, handguard-less AR pistol is if you build a buffer-less Han Solo blaster.

 

[Laoban]

Nope. My Massachusetts SP5 was not bought as an SBR, nor as a rifle to cut down. And my form 1 took ~3 weeks. All legal and on the up and up.

Hey Pappy. I'm in the middle of a bit of a shat show right now with an AP5 that I had the barrel pinned on and I have a fixed stock. I got my tax stamp in two weeks to the day of filing it. Yesterday I got an email from the ATF agent who initially approved it saying the state police got in touch and said it's illegal and violates the MA AWB. So now I am in limbo while this agent researches it more. The FFL/SOT who did the compliance work says he knows this agent and two others and they have all approved stamps for people here in MA and that there is no issue. So you having an SP5 I'm wondering if you had any problems with the MA state police or the ATF and if so, how was it straightened out?

 

[Lxpony]

Hey Pappy. I'm in the middle of a bit of a shat show right now with an AP5 that I had the barrel pinned on and I have a fixed stock. I got my tax stamp in two weeks to the day of filing it. Yesterday I got an email from the ATF agent who initially approved it saying the state police got in touch and said it's illegal and violates the MA AWB. So now I am in limbo while this agent researches it more. The FFL/SOT who did the compliance work says he knows this agent and two others and they have all approved stamps for people here in MA and that there is no issue. So you having an SP5 I'm wondering if you had any problems with the MA state police or the ATF and if so, how was it straightened out?

I'm calling BS on this. Take a pic and redact your personal info please so I can take a look.


2nd did you send the cleo notification to the MSP?

 

[AMV]

Hey Pappy. I'm in the middle of a bit of a shat show right now with an AP5 that I had the barrel pinned on and I have a fixed stock. I got my tax stamp in two weeks to the day of filing it. Yesterday I got an email from the ATF agent who initially approved it saying the state police got in touch and said it's illegal and violates the MA AWB. So now I am in limbo while this agent researches it more. The FFL/SOT who did the compliance work says he knows this agent and two others and they have all approved stamps for people here in MA and that there is no issue. So you having an SP5 I'm wondering if you had any problems with the MA state police or the ATF and if so, how was it straightened out?

Did you happen to uses the State Police as your CLEO notification on the form one? There has been some discussion on this here lately.

 

[CrackPot]

Hey Pappy. I'm in the middle of a bit of a shat show right now with an AP5 that I had the barrel pinned on and I have a fixed stock. I got my tax stamp in two weeks to the day of filing it. Yesterday I got an email from the ATF agent who initially approved it saying the state police got in touch and said it's illegal and violates the MA AWB. So now I am in limbo while this agent researches it more. The FFL/SOT who did the compliance work says he knows this agent and two others and they have all approved stamps for people here in MA and that there is no issue. So you having an SP5 I'm wondering if you had any problems with the MA state police or the ATF and if so, how was it straightened out?

Use @nstassel to straighten this out. Don't try and do this yourself. The new Colonel of MSP is likely confused on what an AW is and is causing issues where none exist. The examiner is also likely new to MA to not already know the law.

Back in ~2017 when Healey's office came out about the Shockwave being an off roster handgun and also SBS and SBRs being off roster handguns, the ATF investigated. They stopped ALL Form 4s for SBSs and SBRs. In 2016 when Healey gave her assault weapon guidance, the ATF stopped Form 1s for about 3 months. After they investigated MA law they went back to approving all SBR and SBS applications. The ATF understands our AWB.

Sounds like the new Colonel is confused and the inspector became confused. Do us all a favor and use the best firearms attorney to resolve this so it does not happen again to others.

 

[Laoban]

Did you happen to uses the State Police as your CLEO notification on the form one? There has been some discussion on this here lately.

The FFL put the state police in the CLEO box

 

[PappyM3]

The FFL put the state police in the CLEO box

You need to speak with a MA firearms law knowledgeable attorney. Sorry you’re having to deal with the BS.

 

[Laoban]

You need to speak with a MA firearms law knowledgeable attorney. Sorry you’re having to deal with the BS.

The compliance FFL gave me the name of a lawyer. He gave me some basic info but I am going to get on the books with him and also see what the ATF comes back with. It might just be confusion on their end, I'm hoping anyway.