RIP Vermont: update the restrictions passed the House

They even call it a ceremony, as if it's something to celebrate.

Scott, a gun owner, said he knows some people will be upset by the new laws, but that they will adjust when they realize the laws will not restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners.

The three recently-passed bills that Scott is expected to sign would require universal background checks, increase the age to buy firearms from 18 to 21 and ban high-capacity magazines and rapid-fire devices known as bump stocks. Two other pieces of legislation would make it easier to take guns from people who are believed to pose a threat to themselves and others and take guns from suspects in cases of domestic violence.
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I think Vermonters between the ages of 18 and 21 would beg to differ with Scott on whether their rights have been restricted.

Vermont GOP governor to sign gun restrictions
 
If he signs the as he said he will, he obviously doesn't care if the 18 to 21 age rights are restricted. OTOH, I'm still baffled as to how the standard magazine restrictions can be enforced without having dates on them, which means that they will be back to toughen that section of the law somehow.
 
Glockster30 said:
If he signs the as he said he will, he obviously doesn't care if the 18 to 21 age rights are restricted. OTOH, I'm still baffled as to how the standard magazine restrictions can be enforced without having dates on them, which means that they will be back to toughen that section of the law somehow.
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Same as MA. When new guns come out that use new magazines, you won't be able to get them. When Magpul designs a new 30-rounder, it'll look different enough that anyone who cares to look will be able to tell. You won't be able to ship to VT or buy at stores in VT. You'll have to know someone in NH and have them shipped there. It won't happen overnight but eventually Vermonters will be buying 25 year old PMAGs just like Ma**h***s are buying Vietnam era 20 rounders.
 
GM-GUY said:
Or they could refuse to comply
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By ordering PMAGs from Palmetto State Armory? If stores won't sell them to you, you can't buy them. If an FFL is still willing to risk his livelihood to sell an 870 to an 18-year old, great. Otherwise he/she has to go to NH and hope they don't know the VT laws changed and/or are willing to sell to an underage buyer.
 
GM-GUY said:
Or they could refuse to comply
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ToddDubya said:
By ordering PMAGs from Palmetto State Armory? If stores won't sell them to you, you can't buy them. If an FFL is still willing to risk his livelihood to sell an 870 to an 18-year old, great. Otherwise he/she has to go to NH and hope they don't know the VT laws changed and/or are willing to sell to an underage buyer.
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I could see not complying working for magazines but not nearly as well for under 21s buying ARs
 
Odd that the left always celebrates rights they don't agree with being stripped away by rolling out the media for it's dog and pony show.

I can't even say I will smile when one of there rights is stripped away, cause I defend the Bill of Rights and the Constitution like lady Justice, blindly not what I think is right or wrong.

Jason.
 
ToddDubya said:
Same as MA. When new guns come out that use new magazines, you won't be able to get them. When Magpul designs a new 30-rounder, it'll look different enough that anyone who cares to look will be able to tell. You won't be able to ship to VT or buy at stores in VT. You'll have to know someone in NH and have them shipped there. It won't happen overnight but eventually Vermonters will be buying 25 year old PMAGs just like Ma**h***s are buying Vietnam era 20 rounders.
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Manufacturers are very resilient in getting around restrictions. Millions of PMAGs alone are still in the pipeline with more to come without any changes.
 
Dog and Pony show is at 2.

Scott poised to sign major gun bills Wednesday

Glockster30 said:
Manufacturers are very resilient in getting around restrictions. Millions of PMAGs alone are still in the pipeline with more to come without any changes.
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30 years worth? 50 years worth? What about every new pistol that comes out and uses a different magazine? That's why I say "Same as MA".
 
ToddDubya said:
Same as MA. When new guns come out that use new magazines, you won't be able to get them.
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Not true at all because VTs magazine law as written, is virtually unenforceable, much like the bullshit in CO.

Doesn't mean its nonexistent, but compared to NY, NJ, MA, etc... its basically toothless.

-Mike
 
ToddDubya said:
Dog and Pony show is at 2.

30 years worth? 50 years worth? What about every new pistol that comes out and uses a different magazine? That's why I say "Same as MA".
Click to expand...
ToddDubya said:
Dog and Pony show is at 2.

30 years worth? 50 years worth? What about every new pistol that comes out and uses a different magazine? That's why I say "Same as MA".
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The bill will allow FFls to sell their stock of standard mags until Oct 1 of this year, and the 10-round limit only applies to rifles, so there is ample time to stock up on them (and the FFLs to order more of them). Plus, who the hell will know where the similar mags will come from after 10/1/18? Vermonters can just go to NH to buy them. Pistols will have a 15-round limit, so that's not much of an issue with new pistols. If I had my druthers, I'd rather be living in VT right now, instead of MA, with much more restrictive mag/gun laws.
 
Glockster30 said:
The bill will allow FFls to sell their stock of standard mags until Oct 1 of this year, and the 10-round limit only applies to rifles, so there is ample time to stock up on them (and the FFLs to order more of them). Plus, who the hell will know where the similar mags will come from after 10/1/18? Vermonters can just go to NH to buy them. Pistols will have a 15-round limit, so that's not much of an issue with new pistols. If I had my druthers, I'd rather be living in VT right now, instead of MA, with much more restrictive mag/gun laws.
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Are you just trolling me? I'm not saying VT is worse than MA, I'm saying it's worse than VT was yesterday and it's going to get worse.

Go tell a 2 year old to hurry up and stock up on standard cap AR magazines before 10/1 because by the time she's 21 by law she'll only have access to standard cap magazines made around the time she was conceived.
Go buy a new Glock 17 next year and enjoy the 10 round magazine it comes with.
Go tell an 18 year old to just suck it up and wait three years to exercise his God given right to keep and bear arms.
Go tell someone in Stamford to just hop in the car real quick and drive three hours round trip to buy a magazine to smuggle back into VT.
Go tell someone who is a felon in possession of a bump stock to just destroy it. It only cost a few hundred bucks anyway.
Go tell the guy who wants to buy a gun from his friend to just cough up another $40 to pay an FFL to transfer it for him.

If you this round of laws was the end game you're fooling yourself.
 
I've been monitoring the Gun Owners of Vermont Faceplant page since this whole mess started. What bothers me more than anything else now that this sh*t has passed is that most of the talk on the page right now surrounds what is or is not now legal, instead of what is going to be done to remove the communists and the tyrant from office and reverse the damage.
 
ToddDubya said:
Are you just trolling me? I'm not saying VT is worse than MA, I'm saying it's worse than VT was yesterday and it's going to get worse.

Go tell a 2 year old to hurry up and stock up on standard cap AR magazines before 10/1 because by the time she's 21 by law she'll only have access to standard cap magazines made around the time she was conceived.
Go buy a new Glock 17 next year and enjoy the 10 round magazine it comes with.
Go tell an 18 year old to just suck it up and wait three years to exercise his God given right to keep and bear arms.
Go tell someone in Stamford to just hop in the car real quick and drive three hours round trip to buy a magazine to smuggle back into VT.
Go tell someone who is a felon in possession of a bump stock to just destroy it. It only cost a few hundred bucks anyway.
Go tell the guy who wants to buy a gun from his friend to just cough up another $40 to pay an FFL to transfer it for him.

If you this round of laws was the end game you're fooling yourself.
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“We’re not gonna cut your benefits or your pension but the new hires are gonna get screwed.”

“Oh. OK. I’m down with that. As long as I’m OK.”
 
Big ups to the people in the crowd who chanted "TRAITOR" during most of the show. Even better when the lady behind him thought they were chanting "Thank you" and she briefly joined in.
 
ToddDubya said:
Are you just trolling me? I'm not saying VT is worse than MA, I'm saying it's worse than VT was yesterday and it's going to get worse.

Go tell a 2 year old to hurry up and stock up on standard cap AR magazines before 10/1 because by the time she's 21 by law she'll only have access to standard cap magazines made around the time she was conceived.
Go buy a new Glock 17 next year and enjoy the 10 round magazine it comes with.
Go tell an 18 year old to just suck it up and wait three years to exercise his God given right to keep and bear arms.
Go tell someone in Stamford to just hop in the car real quick and drive three hours round trip to buy a magazine to smuggle back into VT.
Go tell someone who is a felon in possession of a bump stock to just destroy it. It only cost a few hundred bucks anyway.
Go tell the guy who wants to buy a gun from his friend to just cough up another $40 to pay an FFL to transfer it for him.

If you this round of laws was the end game you're fooling yourself.
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You made the claim "same as MA".

The real answer is "no, it's not"

I won't disagree with you though that they're rapidly going to try to move it in that direction...

The ERPO and under 21 shit is the worst of this bill... and they'll probably double down on it later and add some kind of AW ban to it, too.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
You made the claim "same as MA".

The real answer is "no, it's not"

I won't disagree with you though that they're rapidly going to try to move it in that direction...

The ERPO and under 21 shit is the worst of this bill... and they'll probably double down on it later and add some kind of AW ban to it, too.

-Mike
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My claim "same as MA" was in reference to how it's going to work. Magazines already in possession are grandfathered but new mags are illegal. As new guns come out you won't be able to have standard capacity mags if they hold > 15 rounds. As manufacturers such as Magpul come out with a new generation of PMAGs that is demonstrably different from older generations, you won't be able to have them. Same as MA. The only difference is MA is two decades into a ban and VT is two hours into a ban. The bullshit we put up with in MA today will be the same bullshit people in VT will put up with in the future.
 
ToddDubya said:
Are you just trolling me? I'm not saying VT is worse than MA, I'm saying it's worse than VT was yesterday and it's going to get worse.

Go tell a 2 year old to hurry up and stock up on standard cap AR magazines before 10/1 because by the time she's 21 by law she'll only have access to standard cap magazines made around the time she was conceived.
Go buy a new Glock 17 next year and enjoy the 10 round magazine it comes with.
Go tell an 18 year old to just suck it up and wait three years to exercise his God given right to keep and bear arms.
Go tell someone in Stamford to just hop in the car real quick and drive three hours round trip to buy a magazine to smuggle back into VT.
Go tell someone who is a felon in possession of a bump stock to just destroy it. It only cost a few hundred bucks anyway.
Go tell the guy who wants to buy a gun from his friend to just cough up another $40 to pay an FFL to transfer it for him.

If you this round of laws was the end game you're fooling yourself.
Click to expand...
ToddDubya said:
My claim "same as MA" was in reference to how it's going to work. Magazines already in possession are grandfathered but new mags are illegal. As new guns come out you won't be able to have standard capacity mags if they hold > 15 rounds. As manufacturers such as Magpul come out with a new generation of PMAGs that is demonstrably different from older generations, you won't be able to have them. Same as MA. The only difference is MA is two decades into a ban and VT is two hours into a ban. The bullshit we put up with in MA today will be the same bullshit people in VT will put up with in the future.
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Nope, not trolling anyone. Just giving the facts as I see them, and you appear to ignore some of them.

1) A two year old is not going to understand shit, so make a better analogy. VT gun groups are going to appeal this, so the 2-year-old may not have a problem by the age of 21.
2) If I bought a new Glock 17 next year in VT. it would be limited to 15 rounds, not 10 (this is after I already mentioned to you that pistols will have a 15-round limit). Could it be reduced to 10 rounds? Absolutely!
3) I never said that I agreed with raising the age from 18 to 21, so get over it. In fact, I'm against EVERYTHING in the bill(s).
4) I don't know anyone in Stamford, so your point is pointless. [laugh] I buy standard mags in NH, but they stay there. If a Vermonter buys a standard mag after 10/1 in NH, no need to smuggle it back to VT if it looks exactly the same as other "pre-ban" mags that they already own.
5) If I'm against everything in the bill, that includes a ban on a bump stock. I don't know any felons with a bump stock to tell him/her to destroy it. In fact, I don't know anyone with a bump stock, at all. [smile]
6) Again, I'm against everything in the bill, so there is no need for me to tell any Vermonter to cough up another $40 for a transfer. I didn't draw up or sign the bill.
7) I never said this was the "end game" for legislation, and if you think that I did, stop fooling yourself!

In fact, we will all be fighting this BS in some form or the other for the rest of our lives, and those that follow us will be doing the same.

Take some Xanax and calm down.
 
I am not a fan of bickering, but this hits something that many are confused about:

"2) If I bought a new Glock 17 next year in VT. it would be limited to 15 rounds, not 10 (this is after I already mentioned to you that pistols will have a 15-round limit). Could it be reduced to 10 rounds? Absolutely!"

Yes 15 round mags are allowed. However if glock only makes 17 round standard mags, and 10 round neutered mags, then the fine folks of VT will get a nice shiny new glock with a 10 rd mag. Moreover, if the SKU for that nice new glock 17 that ships with 10rd mags is also the sku for the NY trigger, you get a nice 10rd mag and heavy triggered glock.
 
Glockster30 said:
Nope, not trolling anyone. Just giving the facts as I see them, and you appear to ignore some of them.

1) A two year old is not going to understand shit, so make a better analogy. VT gun groups are going to appeal this, so the 2-year-old may not have a problem by the age of 21.
2) If I bought a new Glock 17 next year in VT. it would be limited to 15 rounds, not 10 (this is after I already mentioned to you that pistols will have a 15-round limit). Could it be reduced to 10 rounds? Absolutely!
3) I never said that I agreed with raising the age from 18 to 21, so get over it. In fact, I'm against EVERYTHING in the bill(s).
4) I don't know anyone in Stamford, so your point is pointless. [laugh] I buy standard mags in NH, but they stay there. If a Vermonter buys a standard mag after 10/1 in NH, no need to smuggle it back to VT if it looks exactly the same as other "pre-ban" mags that they already own.
5) If I'm against everything in the bill, that includes a ban on a bump stock. I don't know any felons with a bump stock to tell him/her to destroy it. In fact, I don't know anyone with a bump stock, at all. [smile]
6) Again, I'm against everything in the bill, so there is no need for me to tell any Vermonter to cough up another $40 for a transfer. I didn't draw up or sign the bill.
7) I never said this was the "end game" for legislation, and if you think that I did, stop fooling yourself!

In fact, we will all be fighting this BS in some form or the other for the rest of our lives, and those that follow us will be doing the same.

Take some Xanax and calm down.
Click to expand...

I was responding to your implication that this isn't that big of a deal.

1. The laws as written apply to everyone who lives in VT right now and will live in VT in the future.
2. The Glock 17 standard magazine is 17 rounds. According to their website it has optional 10 and 33 round magazines. You might be able to fit a G19 mag in there but it doesn't come with one. So yes, enjoy the 10 rounder that comes with it.
3. Fine. Your cavalier tone implied that as long as you weren't impacted (or had enough time to stock up), who cares. I'm saying a large segment of the population cares.
4. What you're suggesting is illegal as of today, therefore I stand by my use of the word "smuggle". Dealers can still sell stock that they have as of today until 10/1 but grandfathering ends today. See below. And your argument still doesn't hold for whatever new line of handguns Ruger comes out with next year that doesn't use "preban" mags.
5. Great. I don't know any either but I support their right to own pieces of plastic they purchased and owned legally.
6. This is a huge infringement (AKA a big deal) that will likely translate into the need for a registry. The state will never know if guns change hands unless they know who has what. Universal background checks are a step toward that.
7. I'll refer to the implication that this isn't that big of a deal, since there's plenty of time to stock up before 10/1.

Sec. 8. 13 V.S.A. § 4021 is added to read:
§ 4021. LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES
(a) A person shall not manufacture, possess, transfer, offer for sale,
purchase, or receive or import into this State a large capacity ammunition
feeding device. As used in this subsection, “import” shall not include the
transportation back into this State of a large capacity ammunition feeding
device by the same person who transported the device out of State if the person
possessed the device on or before the effective date of this section.
(b) A person who violates this section shall be imprisoned for not more
than one year or fined not more than $500.00, or both.
(c)(1) The prohibition on possession of large capacity ammunition feeding
devices established by subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to a large
capacity ammunition feeding device lawfully possessed on or before the
effective date of this section.
(2) The prohibition on possession, transfer, sale, and purchase of large
capacity ammunition feeding devices established by subsection (a) of this
section shall not apply to a large capacity ammunition feeding device lawfully
possessed by a licensed dealer as defined in subdivision 4019(a)(4) of this title
prior to the effective date of this act and transferred by the dealer on or before
October 1, 2018.
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And with that being said...

I'll assume we will continue to disagree on attitudes, tones, etc. Maybe I need a Xanax. Maybe attitudes and tones don't translate well in written form. I'm happy to end the disagreement and move on to agreeing to disagree with the bullshit move. I think we can agree to agree on that :D Consider the peace offering offered.
 
ToddDubya said:
I was responding to your implication that this isn't that big of a deal.

1. The laws as written apply to everyone who lives in VT right now and will live in VT in the future.
2. The Glock 17 standard magazine is 17 rounds. According to their website it has optional 10 and 33 round magazines. You might be able to fit a G19 mag in there but it doesn't come with one. So yes, enjoy the 10 rounder that comes with it.
3. Fine. Your cavalier tone implied that as long as you weren't impacted (or had enough time to stock up), who cares. I'm saying a large segment of the population cares.
4. What you're suggesting is illegal as of today, therefore I stand by my use of the word "smuggle". Dealers can still sell stock that they have as of today until 10/1 but grandfathering ends today. See below. And your argument still doesn't hold for whatever new line of handguns Ruger comes out with next year that doesn't use "preban" mags.
5. Great. I don't know any either but I support their right to own pieces of plastic they purchased and owned legally.
6. This is a huge infringement (AKA a big deal) that will likely translate into the need for a registry. The state will never know if guns change hands unless they know who has what. Universal background checks are a step toward that.
7. I'll refer to the implication that this isn't that big of a deal, since there's plenty of time to stock up before 10/1.



And with that being said...

I'll assume we will continue to disagree on attitudes, tones, etc. Maybe I need a Xanax. Maybe attitudes and tones don't translate well in written form. I'm happy to end the disagreement and move on to agreeing to disagree with the bullshit move. I think we can agree to agree on that :D Consider the peace offering offered.
Click to expand...

IIRC, you just purchased land or were in the process of buying land in VT. If you already purchased there, I feel for you, and I'll assume that's why you were taking your frustrations out on me. Take your frustration out on the asshats that filed the bill and the a**h*** that signed it.

BTW, a G19 mag will not fit in a G17, so buy your G17 with the 17 round mag that will look the same as any other G17 standard mag. No one will know the difference or give a shit.
 

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