Rant: Issue with Level III Steel Armor

[ChevyGuy91]

Not to start an argument, but I have AR500 targets that stop M193 with not much more than a small divot, like .5mm deep.

Target plates are usually twice as thick as the plates sold as armor and it seems you need a 16" or longer barrel to get velocity needed.

 

[josh2600]

FYI. We tried some XM193 (same batch as used in the En Gaurde test) on the same steal plate with a 20" when it was cold out (20F roughly) and we couldn't get it to punch through even stacking a few rounds. It was making small dents though.

We lost some velocity due to the cold and that was enough to stop penetration. I'd be interested in this weather if a 24" would alter that.

Not sayng I still don't prefer the Ceramic armor, just throwing out the data.

Any idea on where the velocity threshold is? Like at what speed it will no longer punch through?

 

[josh2600]

Target plates are usually twice as thick as the plates sold as armor and it seems you need a 16" or longer barrel to get velocity needed.

I actually think the one I'm thinking of is 1/4". What I didn't take into consideration is that I'm shooting them from a 14.5" carbine and loosing alot of velocity.

 

[xtry51]

Any idea on where the velocity threshold is? Like at what speed it will no longer punch through?

Sadly I do not.

If I can find some time I'll try max loading some myself with Varget and chronoing them.

Eh, scratch the Varget. I have some other faster powders that might work better, probably IMR4320.

 

[DrBurnsides]

Just tell me where to show up. Edit.. With the 24" ar....
Also.. I know this is off subject... But if I got some Barnes Solid copper bullets, would anyone be willing to make some 30-36grain handloads? The main thing that causes the plasma jet thing is copper flexing/flowing fast. Lead is not going to do this. This is what antitank/AP rounds do.. Does anyone have something in 220swift?
Also.. Isn't the actual bullet going to be colder, as well as the armor? It's effin cold out.. it might not take too much temp drop to increase the hardness over the threshold to get the splat to happen.

Also.. I'd be tempted to try to rent a Phantom for the day.. Except for 32 gig of video to process for 3 seconds... and the 2500$

 

[atilla]

FYI. We tried some XM193 (same batch as used in the En Gaurde test) on the same steal plate with a 20" when it was cold out (20F roughly) and we couldn't get it to punch through even stacking a few rounds. It was making small dents though.

We lost some velocity due to the cold and that was enough to stop penetration. I'd be interested in this weather if a 24" would alter that.

Not sayng I still don't prefer the Ceramic armor, just throwing out the data.

if anyone was curious, frenchman and i were the shooters.

i was rocking a heavy-barreled 20" AR which i shot suppressed and unsuppressed. frenchman had a 18.5" AR which was shot unsuppressed.

on the 1/4" plate i got a dimple a few millimeters large, but that was the result of stacking four rounds on top of each other. it would have hurt but if there was something living behind that plate it would have kept on living. nothing at all to report on the 3/8" plates, you pretty much had to touch the back of the plate to notice any deformation.

the 1/4" plate did however have a hole in it from a previous adventure with xtry where he did see M193 smash through it. so i've seen the plate but i've never seen this done in person--so that's what we're going for when we all get together with ed to try to wreck steel.

Just tell me where to show up. Edit.. With the 24" ar....
Also.. I know this is off subject... But if I got some Barnes Solid copper bullets, would anyone be willing to make some 30-36grain handloads? The main thing that causes the plasma jet thing is copper flexing/flowing fast. Lead is not going to do this. This is what antitank/AP rounds do.. Does anyone have something in 220swift?
Also.. Isn't the actual bullet going to be colder, as well as the armor? It's effin cold out.. it might not take too much temp drop to increase the hardness over the threshold to get the splat to happen.

Also.. I'd be tempted to try to rent a Phantom for the day.. Except for 32 gig of video to process for 3 seconds... and the 2500$

i like how you party, dude.

 

[Ringworm]

I don't know much about steel plates, but how can it stop .308 and 30-06 and not stop 5.56?

Muzzle Energy = (1/2M)*V^2

M=mass
V=velocity

Velocity delivers much more devastation than mass.

 

[DrBurnsides]

Can I just point out that this is a valid business model? Invent a new type of bullet, that punches through armor. Invent a new armor that stops it.. One company... Two divisions. Profit? How many folks here would quit their day job to design new armor/round and then go shoot at them? I guarantee, not a one of you would ever go home with anything but a smile on your face..

 

[atilla]

Can I just point out that this is a valid business model? Invent a new type of bullet, that punches through armor. Invent a new armor that stops it.. One company... Two divisions. Profit? How many folks here would quit their day job to design new armor/round and then go shoot at them? I guarantee, not a one of you would ever go home with anything but a smile on your face..

i forget the number, but you need a special FFL for manufacturing AP ammo--so hypothetically if you were to do so you of course wouldn't tell us out on the internet.

but yeah bro, if i could maintain my current standard of living i'd go do that shit in a heartbeat.

 

[Steve Marshall]

What many don't realize is that AR500 steel won't be defeated by just about any CF rifle round IF IT IS HANGING FREE. Place it with solid backing and just about any CF rifle cartridge will defeat it. An acquaintance went to the trouble and expense to get targets made of 3/8" AR 500. Even the mighty 50 BMG didn't penetrate at 100 yards while hanging.

 

[usp45ct]

Please explain what problem is bigger than your armor failing when hit with multiple rounds? Personally, I see that rather high on the scale of problems.

The bigger problem than getting hit in the chest with multiple rounds and your worrying about your armor failing is you are getting hit in the chest multiple times. Why are you getting hit in the chest multiple times and about how long until some hitting you in the chest figures out you have body armor on and adjust his sight picture a little higher - like at your melon.

 

[Smokewagon]

but yeah bro, if i could maintain my current standard of living i'd go do that shit in a heartbeat.

I'm sure there are more than a few NES'rs who would line up for that job interview. I know I would.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Be realistic guys, if you are getting hit in the 10"x12" plate you are wearing, you are likely getting hit elsewhere and are likely going to die. 10"x12" plates are designed to keep mil/leo folks from getting a hole punched through their heart so a combat medic can save them from all of the other life threatening wounds they received from getting shot at.

 

[DrBurnsides]

i forget the number, but you need a special FFL for manufacturing AP ammo--so hypothetically if you were to do so you of course wouldn't tell us out on the internet.

but yeah bro, if i could maintain my current standard of living i'd go do that shit in a heartbeat.

I think the AP refers to a specific hardened/tungsten/DU core.. Soft copper is slightly different... I'll look it up. Still.. I've always wanted an FFL....

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I think the AP refers to a specific hardened/tungsten/DU core.. Soft copper is slightly different... I'll look it up. Still.. I've always wanted an FFL....

Just don't label it as AP, you will be fine.

 

[atilla]

Be realistic guys, if you are getting hit in the 10"x12" plate you are wearing, you are likely getting hit elsewhere and are likely going to die. 10"x12" plates are designed to keep mil/leo folks from getting a whole bunched through their heart so a combat medic can save them from all of the other life threatening wounds they received from getting shot at.

Just don't label it as AP, you will be fine.

these.

if you're taking rounds in the chest it's still gonna hurt... but it also means some mother****er has got you dialed in and is landing good center mass hits on you. this is a bad thing.

most likely you're gonna need a trauma center shortly thereafter.

 

[SubieGuy4]

these.

if you're taking rounds in the chest it's still gonna hurt... but it also means some mother****er has got you dialed in and is landing good center mass hits on you. this is a bad thing.

most likely you're gonna need a trauma center shortly thereafter.

Ya if you take a round in the plate it's time to move or find cover. I agree with what others have said in that there's a very good chance that for every hit on the plate there might be another somewhere else on your body. Having said that, it brings to mind this video of this soldier being hit multiple times in his armor and nowhere else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLHU-_OhT8g

 

[DrRansom]

The bigger problem than getting hit in the chest with multiple rounds and your worrying about your armor failing is you are getting hit in the chest multiple times. Why are you getting hit in the chest multiple times and about how long until some hitting you in the chest figures out you have body armor on and adjust his sight picture a little higher - like at your melon.

This. You shouldn't be relying on your plates to stop bullets from hitting you. Your shooting should be stopping bullets from hitting you.

 

[SubieGuy4]

This. You shouldn't be relying on your plates to stop bullets from hitting you. Your shooting should be stopping bullets from hitting you.

Agreed. I don't think anyone should rely on a plate to save them, but that's no reason not to have one. It's a layer of added protection if you have reason to think you'll need it. I have seen one interesting argument against civilian body armor, which went into how armor can lull you into a false sense of security and make you complacent. I think there's some truth to that and it would be easy to take risks with armor that you wouldn't otherwise and end up getting hit in the head, leg, shoulder, gut, side, etc.. I think it's important to still have your mind completely on the situation, what's going on, and where you are. The armor shouldn't be a consideration, and if you were to get hit in it, that's no different than a bullet landing a foot to your left. It just means 'you got lucky once and it's time to get moving.'

 

[Terminator03]

What many don't realize is that AR500 steel won't be defeated by just about any CF rifle round IF IT IS HANGING FREE. Place it with solid backing and just about any CF rifle cartridge will defeat it. An acquaintance went to the trouble and expense to get targets made of 3/8" AR 500. Even the mighty 50 BMG didn't penetrate at 100 yards while hanging.

That is a most excellent point to consider when testing plates, as most times they are free hanging mainly for safety reasons (ricochet). Proper way would be to put it in a cheap carrier, then strap it to a bag of sand, or some other dense material.

 

[Terminator03]

Can I just point out that this is a valid business model? Invent a new type of bullet, that punches through armor. Invent a new armor that stops it.. One company... Two divisions. Profit? How many folks here would quit their day job to design new armor/round and then go shoot at them? I guarantee, not a one of you would ever go home with anything but a smile on your face..

Where can I forward my resume?

 

[SubieGuy4]

That is a most excellent point to consider when testing plates, as most times they are free hanging mainly for safety reasons (ricochet). Proper way would be to put it in a cheap carrier, then strap it to a bag of sand, or some other dense material.

Frankly AR500 Armor themselves do it best. They strap it to a 70lb torso mold made of ballistic jel. It's able to flex a bit and move a bit, and they have the torso standing on a stake in the ground that allows it to recoil back a bit when hit. There's no question the way they do it is the closest you'll get to putting it in a human without doing so.

 

[Another_David]

Can I just point out that this is a valid business model? Invent a new type of bullet, that punches through armor. Invent a new armor that stops it.. One company... Two divisions. Profit? How many folks here would quit their day job to design new armor/round and then go shoot at them? I guarantee, not a one of you would ever go home with anything but a smile on your face..

for just about any armor invented, there is a weapon that will defeat it.

and to that point you can see why the manufacturers don't like to advertise what will defeat it.

moreover practical limitations come in to play. consider these french forces I keep seeing with their bulk helmet face shields, how they get an accurate shot with those helmets is beyond me

 

[josh2600]

Sadly I do not.

If I can find some time I'll try max loading some myself with Varget and chronoing them.

Eh, scratch the Varget. I have some other faster powders that might work better, probably IMR4320.

Cool, it'd be neat to work up a m193 load that you know will do it every time, to keep on hand.

 

[josh2600]

What many don't realize is that AR500 steel won't be defeated by just about any CF rifle round IF IT IS HANGING FREE. Place it with solid backing and just about any CF rifle cartridge will defeat it. An acquaintance went to the trouble and expense to get targets made of 3/8" AR 500. Even the mighty 50 BMG didn't penetrate at 100 yards while hanging.

Yes. This I did not consider either. Feel like an idiot now though, thanks.

 

[wahsben]

Actually a .243 with 55 grain, a 220 swift or any rounds that leave the barrel at around or over 4,000 fps. would be more likely to penetrate AR500 at 100 yds.

What many don't realize is that AR500 steel won't be defeated by just about any CF rifle round IF IT IS HANGING FREE. Place it with solid backing and just about any CF rifle cartridge will defeat it. An acquaintance went to the trouble and expense to get targets made of 3/8" AR 500. Even the mighty 50 BMG didn't penetrate at 100 yards while hanging.

 

[dgrafton]

Actually a .243 with 55 grain, a 220 swift or any rounds that leave the barrel at around or over 4,000 fps. would be more likely to penetrate AR500 at 100 yds.

That's basically what I was told when I bought my target steel. See post 16 regarding impact velocity.

I would think that is the reason .50bmg didn't penetrate at 100 yards. By rifle standards it is not a fast round, just powerful. It is good at distance because the heavier projectile maintains velocity better.

 

[josh2600]

That's basically what I was told when I bought my target steel. See post 16 regarding impact velocity.

I would think that is the reason .50bmg didn't penetrate at 100 yards. By rifle standards it is not a fast round, just powerful. It is good at distance because the heavier projectile maintains velocity better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chZZp-ALV6o

Not to argue the velocity trumps mass idea, just pointing out that whether the plate is hanging or fixed makes all the difference in the world. Steve was right on that.

 

[GM-GUY]

My take - when some is or has a high likely hood of having people shoot at them - a plate is better than an empty carrier.

Soft armor - Dragon Skin - Soft with Ceramic Insert are all other options.


Just like the tankers in WWII, they said the armor on their tanks was like paper when they came up against panzers, another GI commented how you should try this shirt.

 

[Terminator03]

Another interesting thought I had was how the level 3 plates would stand up to a Mosin, especially with some steel core surplus like the silver tip stuff. I know the bullets have a lot of mass, but they seem to be able to penetrate most stuff.