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Range mishap at Southborough Rod and Gun Club

I would like to add some facts to this thread. The bullet at SRG was not shot over the berm nor did it bounce off any berm. The 75 meter position at the range relies on an earthen berm behind the 100 meter position. All of the shooters bullets were on target and accounted for on paper. Unfortunately, the target frame used was 4 feet in height in stead of the usual 5 foot frame. The bullet passed through the paper target and struck flat ground before impacting the berm at 100 meters. It either struck a flat rock or hard pan dirt and veered up and to the right. The house in question was not over a mile away as reported on TV nor was it 1300 feet away as someone posted here earlier. The bullet traveled approximately 3350 feet and after passing through a screen and a double pane window barely had enough inertia to go 4 feet into the girl's bedroom landing in a pile of dirty clothes. When the police first investigated, since no hole was found in the opposite wall, a bullet was ruled out and the hole was blamed on a golf ball found in the front yard. The house is not in a direct line down range and is not in a new sub division as was also stated here earlier. The house is 15 to 20 years old and the owners were well aware that the club existed when they purchased the home. The mother has been interviewed several times and has no desire to see the club shut down. The club's abbutter, the Hopkinton Country Club, would however like the club closed. The club had received a complaint from the CC every year, usually around Memorial Day weekend, just about the same time that the pool is opened for the season. When the golf course was open to the public as the Saddle Hill Country Club, there were no such complaints. Only since it became the private Hopkinton Country Club, after a multi million dollar renovation, have the problems existed. The club's owner and the reporter from the local newspaper that broke the story have the same last name. Can you say hmmmmm??? Four street lots that the CC started to market last year, also abutting our property, were asking $250,000 each. They have had difficulty selling the lots possibly due to our existence. Can I hear another hmmmmmm???
 
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tele_mark said:
I don't know why they allowed houses to be built near a gun club that's existed since the area was undeveloped wilderness. Especially even if there's a chance this could happen. I don't think it's necessary to buy a house in that area.
Click to expand...
+1 million.

I get so mad when people move into an area and expect them what lived there to change. Folks move next to a dairy farm because it looks so tranquil. Come spring when the fecal matter is spread all over the pasture and gardens these same idjits want the farm to go away.

If you dumb enough to buy a house that close to the impact area of a rifle range, you can leave if you don't like the issue that come with it.
 
S&W, welcome and thanks for the FACTS!

Like I posted above, it smelled like a "money issue"! Golf course wants the land to make more money . . . their way.

Just like Messina's condos up above the parking lot at BR&P, they overlook the ranges. It's impacting their ability to sell them for big bucks, so they are complaining about the club. My suggestion to our club president was that the next time they complain, he should tell them to offer a discount to BR&P members. The convenience of walking to the range from your home might sell some of his condos to people who "appreciate the noise"! [wink] [Actually I'm quite serious about the suggestion.]

Maybe your exclusive country club could do something similar and be a win-win for all.
 
I've always thought that a rod, gun and golf club would be a smashing idea. Playing 18 then finishing up with a box or two on the range just seems like a perfect way to spend a long afternoon.
 
Adam_MA said:
Maybe the folks at the range can start hitting golf balls over to the country club. They could even use This golf club!
Click to expand...

Or something like this... [smile]

title.jpg


2.jpg


http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/fore/index.asp
 
LenS

The CC did actually aproach us and offered to sell us the 4 lots for $600,000. We considered it briefly and then reality set in and we realized that we could not afford that expensive of a buffer zone. Unfortunately, we could have purchased the whole golf course 5 to 10 years ago and probably could have picked it up for a couple of million. We could have then developed the street land farthest from the club and perhaps recouped our investment and owned the balance of the property for free. Very large undertaking for a non profit group of part time officers and directors. Hind sight is 20/20.
 
We have a large 300 plus acre farm up for sale next to our club in Barrington. However the million dollar plus price tag is beyond our means right now.
 
S&W59, thanks for bringing some facts to the thread. Can you tell me the date this incident happened?

I mistakenly posted the distance from the shooting line to the house on Saddle Brook Lane at 1,300 feet; it's actually 1,300 yards. The elevations I posted are correct. I assume we're talking about the house that is directly in line with the rifle range?

Is steel-core 7.62 x 39 ammo banned from the shooting range now?
 
Mark,

I don't recall the exact date, but I can tell you that it was about a month ago. We were working with the local Chief and were asked not to contact the family directly, but immediate changes were made to the outdoor range. The house is NOT located in a direct line with the shooter and the target that was being used. The bullet passed through the paper target and hit ground prior to reaching the earthen berm that is used as a backstop. The bullet veered to the right and up and went an additional 3000 feet before finding the second story window. The bullet broke the screen and the thermopane glass but then barely had enough inertia left to make it a few more feet before dropping into a pile of dirty clothes. The bullet is no longer allowed on the range as steel does not fragment the way lead and copper jacket rounds do and the potential for another mishap was too great. Again, our goal is always safety and the desire to be a good neighbor.
 
Time to sue the golf club.

In Bedford, NH - we have a driving range about 3/4mi from my house that was once on the edge of town. A trucking company periodically calls the cops on the range as errant shots bang into trucks and their building, creating a hazard for employees. They filed a suit as well.

The range is closing to sell off for a new Workout Club, although I suspect the $$$ on sale was the trigger rather than the complaints/suit.
 
AntiqueWeapons.org said:
Thank god the girl nor anyone else was hit.
What kind of berm do they have there? Kind of difficult for a bullet to bounce off unless it's a hard flat surface.. If it's an earthen mound/hill, unlikely it bounced..(unless of course there's a big rock there.) I agree with Scrivener.. Shooter was probably aiming too high & maybe shot right over the berm.

What's next, they're going to want to ban all 7mm rounds.. a 7mm round can travel a little over 5 miles.. even a 30.06 can go over 4 miles.

Hell, using Marcus' calculations, that house could be hit with a 22 lhv, or even a 22 short for that matter.
Click to expand...

As we all know, it seems our gun rights are constantly under assault. Every incident like this is a potential knockout blow.

That being said, I think another part of the problem, and one that provides the antis with ever more ammo to use against us, is the perception of the average gun owner as a slightly "off", reckless individual that cares for nothing other than being able to shoot "evil black weapons".

I've gotta say, the fact that it took 17 posts before anyone even showed any concern for the young girl here doesn't help much.

If we seriously want to mount a battle against those who would limit our rights, we have to attack their perception of us. We need them to see that we're normal, compassionate individuals just like they are, and try to de-program all the B.S. they've been fed on the issue and re-educate them.

That's never going to happen if the first words out of our mouths when something like this happens are either "don't take my guns" or "is this even possible" and trying to disprove the story. They found a bullet in their laundry basket; all the range measurements, trajectory estimations, berm and bullet composition studies and other "theories" in the world isn't going to overshadow that one very strong bit of physical evidence in the eyes of your average person.

I wonder if frangible ammo would have made a difference in this case....I'm far from a ballistics expert. Anyone have an opinion?
 
I've gotta say, the fact that it took 17 posts before anyone even showed any concern for the young girl here doesn't help much.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that's because everyone else already knew no-one was harmed by the errant shot, the damage from which consists entirely of a broken window. It does not appear to even have damaged the laundry it landed in.
 
Major Blood said:
As we all know, it seems our gun rights are constantly under assault. Every incident like this is a potential knockout blow.
Click to expand...

More of a knockout for the gun club than anything else. I don't see
a bunch of anti drumbeat from this sort of thing, aside from local
politics. I've often said, however, that even if we win on the front end
that the antis will try to shut down all the clubs that they possibly
can. Even if we took all of the prominent antis and pushed them out of
the back of pinochet's airplane we would still have to deal with the issues
that urban sprawl presents. And these kind of issues is more competition
for land use than it is a gun rights issue.

That being said, I think another part of the problem, and one that provides the antis with ever more ammo to use against us, is the perception of the average gun owner as a slightly "off", reckless individual that cares for nothing other than being able to shoot "evil black weapons".
Click to expand...

That's pretty insulting, if you think that the average non gun owning
american actually believes that. Maybe they do if you hang out with
Rosie O' Donnell a lot, but I think by and large most people don't think that
hard about gun owners. I mean seriously, lets get a reality check
here.... aside from the news soundbites, how often are people really
exposed to gun issues? They're not. And most simply don't care
or only have a weak position on the issue. Once you get beyond the
big dump cities and the few commie states, this becomes even more
clear.

I've gotta say, the fact that it took 17 posts before anyone even showed any concern for the young girl here doesn't help much.
Click to expand...

While I am glad she wasn't hurt, there is no real reason for anyone to
be writing a 5 page soliloquy over a non-event that was imminently less
dangerous than half the shit that happens on our roads and highways,
every day. I'm not trying to be callous here but, frankly, nobody
got hurt... not much to say about that.


If we seriously want to mount a battle against those who would limit our rights, we have to attack their perception of us. We need them to see that we're normal, compassionate individuals just like they are, and try to de-program all the B.S. they've been fed on the issue and re-educate them.
Click to expand...

Let's make something imminently clear here- people who want to limit
our rights are not "normal, compassionate" individuals, despite what they
want you to believe. They're f***ing commies, it's that simple. [angry]

The debate, however, is not that simple. The people that we have to
work on "de programming" are not the ones harping about new
gun laws... they're too far gone.... the ones you want to look at are the
ones that are indifferent on the issue. The amount of votes lost to
people who are indifferent or even gun owners that didn't care enough
overshadows the number of voters that are consistently anti gun. When
you start to go beyond the surface, the reality is the number of full blown
antis is actually pretty low. (The recent failure of the MMM is an
indicator of this... nobody cares anymore ) The success of anti gun
types is largely a matter of them acting as a parasite on the back of socialist/fascist
politicians. They attach themselves to political figures where they know they
can push their agenda without voter backlash. Most of the wins are as a result
of people doing nothing, not people voting FOR gun control. (example - very rarely
does one see a referendum vote where a majority of a populace wants to increase
gun laws. I think it happened in SF, but part of that whole thing was rigged from the
get go... otherwise you rarely hear about it. )

That's never going to happen if the first words out of our mouths when something like this happens are either "don't take my guns" or "is this even possible" and trying to disprove the story. They found a bullet in their laundry basket; all the range measurements, trajectory estimations, berm and bullet composition studies and other "theories" in the world isn't going to overshadow that one very strong bit of physical evidence in the eyes of your average person.
Click to expand...

Well, we question everything because in this state, people have been known
to do crazy shit to try to get gun ranges closed. It's called "trust but verify"
or something to that effect. It's also important to find out WHY these things
happen so we can prevent them in the future. Just saying "someone at
the club put a bullet through this lady's window, he is a bad man" and that
being the end of it is a dumb idea. Peoples perceptions change when
the facts come to light. (Maybe the media sucks at reporting it, but
that is an entirely different problem beyond the scope of the issue at hand.)

I wonder if frangible ammo would have made a difference in this case....I'm far from a ballistics expert. Anyone have an opinion?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would have, (because the bullet hit something) but a lead bullet
probably wouldn't have made it that far either. The fact that the bullet
was steel core was probably the overriding factor here. (When lead bullets
hit things that are hard, they tend to self-deform and dump a lot of energy
in the process.... when a piece of steel hits something hard, well, weird
shit happens because the steel isn't very soft. )

Frangible ammo is a great invention, problem is it costs too damned much
money. I'm sure a bunch of ranges would mandate "frangible green
ammo only" if it was affordable and you could get bullets identical ballistics,
at least for practice. Unfortunately the truth is that neither of those
qualities can currently be satisfied by the offerings out there.

-Mike
 
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drgrant said:
More of a knockout for the gun club than anything else. I don't see
a bunch of anti drumbeat from this sort of thing, aside from local
politics. I've often said, however, that even if we win on the front end
that the antis will try to shut down all the clubs that they possibly
can. Even if we took all of the prominent antis and pushed them out of
the back of pinochet's airplane we would still have to deal with the issues
that urban sprawl presents. And these kind of issues is more competition
for land use than it is a gun rights issue.



That's pretty insulting, if you think that the average non gun owning
american actually believes that. Maybe they do if you hang out with
Rosie O' Donnell a lot, but I think by and large most people don't think that
hard about gun owners. I mean seriously, lets get a reality check
here.... aside from the news soundbites, how often are people really
exposed to gun issues? They're not. And most simply don't care
or only have a weak position on the issue. Once you get beyond the
big dump cities and the few commie states, this becomes even more
clear.



While I am glad she wasn't hurt, there is no real reason for anyone to
be writing a 5 page soliloquy over a non-event that was imminently less
dangerous than half the shit that happens on our roads and highways,
every day. I'm not trying to be callous here but, frankly, nobody
got hurt... not much to say about that.




Let's make something imminently clear here- people who want to limit
our rights are not "normal, compassionate" individuals, despite what they
want you to believe. They're f***ing commies, it's that simple. [angry]

The debate, however, is not that simple. The people that we have to
work on "de programming" are not the ones harping about new
gun laws... they're too far gone.... the ones you want to look at are the
ones that are indifferent on the issue. The amount of votes lost to
people who are indifferent or even gun owners that didn't care enough
overshadows the number of voters that are consistently anti gun. When
you start to go beyond the surface, the reality is the number of full blown
antis is actually pretty low. (The recent failure of the MMM is an
indicator of this... nobody cares anymore ) The success of anti gun
types is largely a matter of them acting as a parasite on the back of socialist/fascist
politicians. They attach themselves to political figures where they know they
can push their agenda without voter backlash. Most of the wins are as a result
of people doing nothing, not people voting FOR gun control. (example - very rarely
does one see a referendum vote where a majority of a populace wants to increase
gun laws. I think it happened in SF, but part of that whole thing was rigged from the
get go... otherwise you rarely hear about it. )



Well, we question everything because in this state, people have been known
to do crazy shit to try to get gun ranges closed. It's called "trust but verify"
or something to that effect. It's also important to find out WHY these things
happen so we can prevent them in the future. Just saying "someone at
the club put a bullet through this lady's window, he is a bad man" and that
being the end of it is a dumb idea. Peoples perceptions change when
the facts come to light. (Maybe the media sucks at reporting it, but
that is an entirely different problem beyond the scope of the issue at hand.)



Yeah, it would have, (because the bullet hit something) but a lead bullet
probably wouldn't have made it that far either. The fact that the bullet
was steel core was probably the overriding factor here. (When lead bullets
hit things that are hard, they tend to self-deform and dump a lot of energy
in the process.... when a piece of steel hits something hard, well, weird
shit happens because the steel isn't very soft. )

Frangible ammo is a great invention, problem is it costs too damned much
money. I'm sure a bunch of ranges would mandate "frangible green
ammo only" if it was affordable and you could get bullets identical ballistics,
at least for practice. Unfortunately the truth is that neither of those
qualities can currently be satisfied by the offerings out there.

-Mike
Click to expand...


All excellent points, Mike.

You're damn right about the indifferents vs. the antis issue, and upon reading what you wrote, I realized that the indifferent people were the ones I was more focusing on than the outright antis with those comments.

As far as someone not being capable of being compassionate just because they hold an opposing viewpoint on a topic to the one that I do, well, I won't go so far as to say that. And communist? Hardly...I don't see any of those silver spoon fed politicians falling in line with an idealogy whose core tenets included provisions that limit the wealth of the individual. "Commie" seems to have become a lump-em-all-in buzzword to describe any that oppose the views held by the general consensus of this board, and I'm sure some Russians out there who have lived (and died) under real Communism would consider that particular usage of the word as the whine of a spoiled child.

I mean, I live in MA, I know what it's like to have your rights limited...but Communist it ain't...last time I checked, people had the right to move if they wanted to.

As far as the range issue, I wasn't implying that "someone at
the club put a bullet through this lady's window, he is a bad man", all I'm saying is this: I'm a LTC Class A ALP holder in MA, I fully support the 2nd Amendment, but if a bullet came through my little girl's window, I'm going to want answers, not questions. And she didn't get PHYSICALLY hurt, no. But you tell me, how safe is she gonna feel in her bedroom, or even walking outside, at this point? And like I mentioned, I live in MA...if you know anything about the last A.G. we had here, you'd know that I know a thing or two about people doing sneaky things to get their way, but c'mon...let's both share a reality check....a bullet came flying through a kid's window and again, if that had happened to my lil girl and the response I got even REMOTELY included "Oh, that bullet didn't have enough velocity to do any damage at that point, no big deal.", the cops would have to come pull me off of their ass...

Thanks for the frangible ammo info...I figured it would have made a difference but wasn't sure how hard the surface had to be before the bullet disentegrated. And I agree, amazing invention!
 
Major Blood said:
All excellent points, Mike.

You're damn right about the indifferents vs. the antis issue, and upon reading what you wrote, I realized that the indifferent people were the ones I was more focusing on than the outright antis with those comments.
Click to expand...

I guess I was just a bit confused; because the hyperbole you mentioned sounded
more like it came from the mouths of a brady fume breather as opposed to mary
hairnet or joe public that doesn't conciously have anti-gun thoughts when they
go to bed at night. The problem with most voters is they let the pols get away with banning
stuff because they have no stake in the battle... as I've mentioned before (in other posts here)
the only long term fix to this is to make more gun owners, so more people have a stake... it
is the only way we are going to survive and/or retain rights. People generally will not defend
anything that they don't care about at all; it is very hard to get people to do that, even if it is
indirectly beneficial to them. (Well, there are some limited exceptions, like libertarians that don't
own guns but believe in everyone elses right to own them, etc, or for that matter, true "classical
liberals" and the like... both very small groups, at best. )


As far as someone not being capable of being compassionate just because they hold an opposing viewpoint on a topic to the one that I do, well, I won't go so far as to say that.
Click to expand...

It depends on who we're referring to. The lemmings that just go along
with what shows up is one thing; yeah, they might be ignorant.... or just
unknowing; but the bradyites and the politicos that have bought into them
hook line and sinker, should all be executed for treason and/or jailed for
civil rights violations. I guess I just hold the belief that these people are
the same class of scum as terrorists and other enemies of the state/republic-
especially if a politician is involved, as many of them take an OATH to
uphold the constitution, among other things.

I don't like people being misinformed either, but I guess what I'm getting
at is there are two lumps of people WRT this issue... the ones that don't
know any better and the ones that -consciously- look to deprive people of
rights. The f*ckheads that say that people don't have the right to carry
a gun are effectively saying that people don't have the right to defend
themselves. I can't consider anyone who wants to strip someone's rights
away like that to be "compassionate." It can't go both ways. They say "we'll
make the streets safer" but we all know that is a load of horseshit... all the laws
do is disable/restrict the law abiding... and I can't see how that is "compassionate" in
any way.


And communist? Hardly...I don't see any of those silver spoon fed politicians falling in line with an idealogy whose core tenets included provisions that limit the wealth of the individual.
Click to expand...

You can have communism and still have (limited) individual wealth; take a good look at current-day china for an example of this. There are "new
millionaires" in china now, under what is effectively an authoritarian government
with a dollup of communism on the side. Those with the
money don't care if they are only one of a small pctage of people that
have that kind of money, as long as they're on "the list" they could care
less about everyone else.

"Commie" seems to have become a lump-em-all-in buzzword to describe any that oppose the views held by the general consensus of this board, and I'm sure some Russians out there who have lived (and died) under real Communism would consider that particular usage of the word as the whine of a spoiled child.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but many of them would also be intelligent enough to see that
the tendencies in several state governments as well as the feds, to a
lesser extent, reek of the underpinnings of the horrific state they had
to live under. I'm sure they don't consider it nearly as bad, but it must
scare the shit out of them to see such tendencies in our governments. (eg,
a lot of expats are going "oh no, not this shit again. " )

I mean, I live in MA, I know what it's like to have your rights limited...but Communist it ain't...
Click to expand...

If ramming health insurance down your throat isn't communist, I'm not
sure what is, also nobody should have to beg for the governments
permission to exercise Constitutionally guaranteed rights. And that's
just the beginning of the problems here.... I'm sure you're well aware
that there is more. Maybe it's not communism but it is certainly some
terrible form of socialism, at a minimum.

last time I checked, people had the right to move if they wanted to.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you can move, until the socialist disease spreads to whatever
state you move to... course some are more bound to get infected
than others.

Maybe "communist" is the wrong word, but "socialist" will fit the bill
nicely- and the scourge of socialism is basically communism with
training wheels. They're socialists because they typically have so much money
that all the laws/regs/etc they pass are really only effectual upon the
middle and lower classes. They know they can buy their way out of
anything else, so they have no problem passing laws to restrict the
freedoms of all the "peons" beneath them. Banning guns is just another
means of securing the obedience of the underclasses. If they take all
the guns away, they know that the public cannot revolt against their
power base. Most of these gun banning pricks are into it because they
fear that one day a citizen who got sick of them decides to put a bullet
in their head.

As far as the range issue, I wasn't implying that "someone at
the club put a bullet through this lady's window, he is a bad man", all I'm saying is this: I'm a LTC Class A ALP holder in MA, I fully support the 2nd Amendment, but if a bullet came through my little girl's window, I'm going to want answers, not questions. And she didn't get PHYSICALLY hurt, no. But you tell me, how safe is she gonna feel in her bedroom, or even walking outside, at this point?
Click to expand...

Well, since the mom isn't interested in seeing the club shut down (as SW59
mentioned) I think the girl has more of an interesting story to tell her
friends at school about, as opposed to being paralyzed by fear. Especially
given that someone from the club has likely already visited the family and
explained the situation.

On the other hand, if this girl lived someplace like dorchester, and the
same thing happened, well, I'm sure she'd be a lot more afraid- given
that the criminal lowlifes that inhabit that part of town, or the PD, etc,
have no way of controlling whether or not an incident like that would
ever happen again. I mean nothing is 100% certain but if a club
shows me how it happened and how they intend to prevent it from
occurring again, that's a lot more reassuring. At least there someone
is taking responsibility; criminals are almost never are held responsible for their acts in this state!

And like I mentioned, I live in MA...if you know anything about the last A.G. we had here, you'd know that I know a thing or two about people doing sneaky things to get their way, but c'mon...let's both share a reality check....a bullet came flying through a kid's window and again, if that had happened to my lil girl and the response I got even REMOTELY included "Oh, that bullet didn't have enough velocity to do any damage at that point, no big deal.", the cops would have to come pull me off of their ass...
Click to expand...

I can say that I probably would want answers too, if I was in the
position of the parents... nothing wrong with them getting some,
either.

I don't think the club responded that callously at all. I'm sure they
expressed dismay and concern as well. The commentary presented
herein (from the members here, etc) is more academic in nature- we're
talking about the technical side of the issue, not the human one.

Thanks for the frangible ammo info...I figured it would have made a difference but wasn't sure how hard the surface had to be before the bullet disentegrated. And I agree, amazing invention!
Click to expand...

If you check out youtube I think there is some videos of LE types running
frangible ammo, it allows them to shoot steel at close range (like bad
breath distance) without getting hit by bullet or jacket fragments. It is
very useful for CQB type training... it is too bad that it is expensive and
hard to get. A lot of frangible pistol and rifle ammo also has the side effect
of being devoid of lead. (of course, this is only beneficial if a given indoor
range only uses the clean ammo) but it does help keep pollution
down, at least on indoor ranges.

-Mike
 
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