Question about Cash

[Mr. Gold]

So:
Greece, you know, it's time to panic, etc.

Whatever we have saved is in the bank, or should I say, in the banks hands. And I do get the hard fact that our hard earned money is going into the bank's hands (direct deposit, we have to), and will be given to us when we ask for it, as long as all is A-okay and the banks are happy, it's not like Greece made me wake totally, but it's a reminder only a fool would ignore.

My question: I'm pretty much sure that going to to the bank and cashing out is not a good idea, I know that even taking out 1K at a time, for a period of time, will still need to be reported by the bank.

I've been thinking about at the least - not adding any more money to what we have - meaning, stopping by the bank once the salary clears and just cashing it all (just the salary value). We have enough money in checking in order pay bills online, CC bills, should be enough for a few months.

Any experts here about this ? Could that get me into a list with the IRS or any other ABC agency ?
I've heard quite a few stories about people using cash only having "funny incidents" with financial .gov authorities,
what's your opinion about this ?

 

[headednorth]

Sub'd.

I was told $10k is the limit, not sure if its monthly or any 30 day period. Banks are required to report any withdrawals of lesser amounts that appear to be an attempt to circumvent this (structuring). Im on direct dep. and my bank closes the same time I get out of work. They dont make it easy.

 

[turbo89]

Sub'd.

I was told $10k is the limit, not sure if its monthly or any 30 day period. Banks are required to report any withdrawals of lesser amounts that appear to be an attempt to circumvent this (structuring). Im on direct dep. and my bank closes the same time I get out of work. They dont make it easy.

Banks are supposed to report transactions over $10k, or "strange transactions". They literally have departments and people that investigate these activities and report them to the guberment.

If I were considering this, I wold just ask your work to cut you a "live check" and then cash it (either at your bank, or the bank it's drawn from).

Just my $0.02

 

[Kevin_NH]

Go to your nearest branch on Fridays, take out $2K, when they ask, say Fox...

I've been through training on this, but it's been a year or so, I am not up on the latest in regulations and reporting...

Banks are supposed to report transactions over $10k, or "strange transactions". They literally have departments and people that investigate these activities and report them to the guberment.

Yes, but for the most part they aren't interested in "us".

I've taken financial industry Anti-Money-Laundering (AML) training. Banking compliance is mostly about obvious red flags and "Know Your Customer" policies. If your behavior suddenly changes, especially if you start making cash deposits/purchases , any cash-handling business (bank, credit union, car dealership, western union, etc) are supposed to generate a Suspicious Activity Report and for any transaction exceeding reporting thresholds, must file a currency transaction report (CTR) to FinCEN. That said, most reports, especially withdrawal reports for a few thousand, are no big deal, the government admits they barely glance at them. Part of the problem is the $10K limit wasn't indexed to inflation, so the Feds get a huge volume of reports these days -- the rate of SAR reports alone has tripled since 2003, to over 5K reports per day.

Withdrawing cash in amounts up to perhaps $4K is not a big deal; if anybody asks, just say Foxwoods, or Foxy Lady. If your bank thinks you are a degenerate gambler (or just a degenerate) that one bank might be reluctant to loan you money, but will be happy to let you spend your own money that came from a legit deposit. Or if you don't want to deal with a teller, you can also have your bank increase your ATM withdrawal limit -- most ATMs can distribute a maximum of 40 bills per transaction, and Sovereign Bank, for example, has a daily ATM withdrawal limit of $1,000; some banks go as high as $2,500.

I was told $10k is the limit, not sure if its monthly or any 30 day period. Banks are required to report any withdrawals of lesser amounts that appear to be an attempt to circumvent this (structuring).

The reports are filed monthly, but I don't think there's any requirement to track your transactions over a 30-day period. $10K is the limit that requires a CTR, but there are two other types of reports.

While they can file CTR for smaller transactions, financial institutions must file if you move $10K in currency or currency equivalents in a 24-hour period, or in "related" transactions. And any business in a regulated industry is mandated by FinCEN to report transactions where they “have knowledge that (transactions) are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any one business day.”.

Financial institutions will file a SAR when you hit about $5K if they have any reason to suspect something is not right, and for certain types of transaction, the trigger amount is lower -- If, for example, you are buying money orders, as little as $2K can trigger a SAR if the institution believes "The transaction has no business or apparent lawful purpose and knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining the available facts, including the background and possible purpose of the transaction." It's all well documented at fincen.gov.

Beyond the regulated industries, any person or business receiving $10K in cash or cash equivalent, in a single transaction or related transactions, must file IRS Form 8300 documenting the source and transation.

Greece, you know, it's time to panic, etc. Whatever we have saved is in the bank, or should I say, in the banks hands. And I do get the hard fact that our hard earned money is going into the bank's hands (direct deposit, we have to), and will be given to us when we ask for it, as long as all is A-okay and the banks are happy, it's not like Greece made me wake totally, but it's a reminder only a fool would ignore.

Sitting on cash in the form of US banknotes isn't great use of your savings. As long as you are under the FDIC insurance limits, your cash is safer in a US bank earning 0.01% interest than it will be sitting in a coffee can under the rose bushes in your side yard.

OTOH, if you have an extra $5K with no need for liquidity, turning that surplus into junk silver isn't the worst thing you could do.

My question: I'm pretty much sure that going to to the bank and cashing out is not a good idea, I know that even taking out 1K at a time, for a period of time, will still need to be reported by the bank.

A sudden change in your behavior should trigger a report, and maybe a question from your teller. But taking out $1K at a time is no big deal, isn't going to have the gov't kicking down your door next month (I'd worry more about non-government thugs, and changes in policy 5 years down the road). Department of the Treasury maintains two databases of Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) data (which includes CTR, SAR, and such), but unless they have reason to look at your activity, it will just be recorded and ignored... for now.

The first time you try to take out a chunk of cash, the teller is going to suggest getting it in the form of a money order or cashier's check (these are "currency equivalents" and will still result in a CTR). Just decline politely, or reference the above Fox... explanation if you feel like you must elaborate.

Any experts here about this ? Could that get me into a list with the IRS or any other ABC agency ? I've heard quite a few stories about people using cash only having "funny incidents" with financial .gov authorities, what's your opinion about this ?

I doubt the IRS is going to take an interest in citizens who pull out cash in increments of a few thousand dollars, yes there will be a report, but no it won't result in anything happening to you. Maybe if you work in a sensitive job with a top secret clearance then your sudden change in behavior might be an issue for your clearance, but the IRS doesn't care if the average citizen has a gambling problem or is being blackmailed or whatever.

Once you've established a pattern of semi-regular cash withdrawals for the weekend, the bank will just ignore your now usual transaction pattern and (probably) stop generating reports. Just don't try depositing a lump sum of cash later -- cash deposits are massive red flags!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Another option is wiring funds to a reputable precious metals house if you prefer non-fiat stores of wealth. It also avoids the "cash suspicious".

A big problem Greece has is that it does not control the currency in which it owes the debts. The US would have to sink deeper before it defaulted, as the fed could just give everyone their haircut via inflationary dillution (also known as quantitive easing).

If Greece leaves the Euro, I feel sorry for all those Grecians who will have their money converted at a rather unfavorable rate. But, there was plenty of warning, and plenty of time to move money out of the country or into non-documented assets. The people left with money in the bank are like those stuck low on primers or powder when a shortage hits because they waited until they were low on supply before restocking. When they can find a bank open that has cash, they are limited to something like 60 euros from an ATM or 120 from a branch. Remind anyone of gun shops limiting buyers to 100 primers or so?

I suppose a relevant question is "What's a grecian urn?"

The simplest way to put it into perspective would be for the Germans to have a referendum "Should the tax dollars from German citizens fund the retirement of public sector Greek workers?".

Once you've established a pattern of semi-regular cash withdrawals for the weekend, the bank will just ignore your usual transaction pattern and stop generating reports, just don't try depositing a lump sum of cash later.

Tell that to the grocery store owner who established a pattern of deposits a bit under $10,000 since that was his insurance limit on cash.

 

[Christian]

I don't know, if I had any meaningful amount of loot in the bank and was worried about a banking situation happening here like in Greece anytime soon I'd probably buy more stuff to get ready for the sh*t show.

 

[Mr. Gold]

I don't know, if I had any meaningful amount of loot in the bank and was worried about a banking situation happening here like in Greece anytime soon I'd probably buy more stuff to get ready for the sh*t show.

It's a bit more than that , - Last time we went overseas about year and a half ago, I left the "get cash for trip" chore last (not smart), I stopped by the branch and asked for $4K. It took them quite a bit of time to grant my money to me. The teller could not authorize the action, they had to wait for the branch manager, funny whispers going between them, I felt like I'm in some kind of a movie, it did not feel good at all.

I see the fact as ever increasing - does anyone here know if all of us will go and ask banks for our sub total in cash -can they even provide that? does each $ of our money has a real paper representation, or it's all "numbers" ?

 

[headednorth]

It's a bit more than that , - Last time we went overseas about year and a half ago, I left the "get cash for trip" chore last (not smart), I stopped by the branch and asked for $4K. It took them quite a bit of time to grant my money to me. The teller could not authorize the action, they had to wait for the branch manager, funny whispers going between them, I felt like I'm in some kind of a movie, it did not feel good at all.

I see the fact as ever increasing - does anyone here know if all of us will go and ask banks for our sub total in cash -can they even provide that? does each $ of our money has a real paper representation, or it's all "numbers" ?

I did The Big Withdrawl once. Got a lot of funny looks. Teller had to get the manager, he kind of supervised the transaction. They couldnt do the full amount and I had to go to another branch.

 

[Cabin Fever]

It's a bit more than that , - Last time we went overseas about year and a half ago, I left the "get cash for trip" chore last (not smart), I stopped by the branch and asked for $4K. It took them quite a bit of time to grant my money to me. The teller could not authorize the action, they had to wait for the branch manager, funny whispers going between them, I felt like I'm in some kind of a movie, it did not feel good at all.

I see the fact as ever increasing - does anyone here know if all of us will go and ask banks for our sub total in cash -can they even provide that? does each $ of our money has a real paper representation, or it's all "numbers" ?

That is unique to that bank. There are plenty of other banks that won't care about that sort of transaction (beyond having to reach the appropriate vault to get larger bills, as tellers keep low cash levels for robbery reasons). But, it can be more complicated...

As far as cash withdrawals, the .gov is very, very much on banks to look for "suspicious" transactions. Taking out $10k over a small period of time (a week or two) will at least get a second look by someone in a back office. Best way to beat it? Like Rob B. said, buy cash equivalents without cash. Or spread your funds amongst institutions. Given that different banks use different software, interbank collusion is highly unlikely.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Once you've established a pattern of semi-regular cash withdrawals for the weekend, the bank will just ignore your usual transaction pattern and stop generating reports, just don't try depositing a lump sum of cash later.

Tell that to the grocery store owner who established a pattern of deposits a bit under $10,000 since that was his insurance limit on cash.

Terry Dehko's case was about cash deposits.

It's a bit more than that , - Last time we went overseas about year and a half ago, I left the "get cash for trip" chore last (not smart), I stopped by the branch and asked for $4K. It took them quite a bit of time to grant my money to me. The teller could not authorize the action, they had to wait for the branch manager, funny whispers going between them, I felt like I'm in some kind of a movie, it did not feel good at all.

That $4K probably represented the majority of their cash on hand. That's part of the reason why banks will strongly encourage you to go with a cashier's check instead of cash. Give them 7 days notice and your bank can put together any amount you want, up to the sum total of your deposit accounts. They'll even give it you you in Euros or Yen, if that makes you happy.

Or if you don't want to wait, take the cashier's check.

I did The Big Withdrawl once. Got a lot of funny looks. Teller had to get the manager, he kind of supervised the transaction. They couldnt do the full amount and I had to go to another branch.

Most branches have very little cash on hand (This is distinct from their liquidity ratio). There's not much demand for paper money, and their insurance company gives them a discount for good cash management practices.

I see the fact as ever increasing - does anyone here know if all of us will go and ask banks for our sub total in cash -can they even provide that? does each $ of our money has a real paper representation, or it's all "numbers" ?

Not even close to 1-to-1 in terms of assets, much less paper.

Banks have, at best, perhaps 10% liquidity/reserves. Usually much less.

 

[enbloc]

.

 

[Christian]

I guess I should have been a bit more clear in my stuff comment but I get a tendency to be long winded at times(prior to my self edit I had in my OP ).

Aside from the usual items I'd take some classes to work on gaining more skill sets(EMT basic for starters as an example) or maybe invest in some land way out in BFE somewhere. Whatever is purchased either comes directly from the account to lose as little as possible or put to a CC and paid off at the end of the month, may as well work on getting points/miles if it all doesn't go sidewards. If we somehow manage to avoid it just sell the tangible items and recoup some money whenever you believe the all clear has been sounded, extra training and skill sets last forever(so long as you practice them).

 

[JayMcB]

Just a few years ago, I walked into my Credit Union and plunked down a check drawn on my HELOC for $13k. 15 minutes later, I walked out with 130 $100 dollar bills. No BS, no whispers, no interrogation.

The teller knew me, and I told her I was buying a tractor with a backhoe (because i was buying a tractor with a backhoe)

All they asked for was an ID. While I'm sure this caused a transaction alert since it was over 10k, we were beating the shit out of that HELOC to finish our house in NH, so it was pretty explainable. Plus, the tractor was there.
A week later, we wrote a $26k check against it for taxes, the week after that 10k for materials, the week after that, 8k for fill and excavation.

The way I work cash into rotation is that I get my monthly expense check, which ranges from 1-3k, cash it, deposit any direct costs for gear, etc into the account I pay my CC with, and keep the rest in folded bejamins. Contingencies.

It's YOUR money, FFS. Stop worrying about .gov and cash a damn check if you want cash.

The bigger concern you need to have is how you are now an unsecured creditor to the bank, and if it fails, you may be out your money, AKA a bail-in.

I'd suggest you read post 300 in this thread very, very carefully. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/285419-The-Shit-Show-in-Greece/page30

 

[Mr. Gold]

I'd suggest you read post 300 in this thread very, very carefully. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/285419-The-Shit-Show-in-Greece/page30

Yup, that pretty much sums it up in a clear fashion. Makes me wanna head to the bank pretty much -NOW and get my money

I see really no other way than to start withdrawing all pay checks from this point on, so at least nothing new will be added to the bank account, at first. And to come up with some plan how to keep the checking account to a bare minimum.

 

[speedy]

Do not keep all your eggs in one basket. All I have to say. Pick your basket and how much and what type of currency you want to have. It is silly to have all your eggs in one bank or all in a bank.

 

[DW357]

Do not keep all your eggs in one basket. All I have to say. Pick your basket and how much and what type of currency you want to have. It is silly to have all your eggs in one bank or all in a bank.

I currently have everything in one basket. All my money is in a checking account and a savings account at Citizens Bank. Looks like I have a lot to learn about managing my money....

 

[Mr. Gold]

I currently have everything in one basket. All my money is in a checking account and a savings account at Citizens Bank. Looks like I have a lot to learn about managing my money....

One thing I'm doing lately is releasing the cap from my future orders, meaning, if I've held myself not to buy something I truly need, with a "later we'll get it, not critical for now", I just go ahead and order it. I guess it's win-win for everyone.

I figure anything at this point is better than money drying up in the bank. I don't mean buying pink flamingos for the yard, but actual things I have use for - power tools, DIY items, clothing, shoes, etc.

Trips to BJ's - get extra everything, more cooking oil, extra large bag of rice, more canned food, enough beef to fill up the freezer and not just 2 week's supply - it all gets used anyway, no need for emergency there
When buying ammo for next the range trip, or even if just stopping by the store to pick up some worms - I'll throw in extra 5 boxes for each caliber for the storage, etc etc.

Nothing of the above can be treated as "throwing money away" after all, and it does help divert more income to tangibles rather to the bank account.

 

[cockpitbob]

Diversify. Imagine what gold and silver coins and bars will be worth in Greece. Having some (nowhere near all) in metals seems smarter every day. Buy in amounts <$10K and stick them in your safe deposit box or mattress.

 

[the_shootist]

I got some PMs, I got some cash, I got some guns, I got some ammo, I got some food for long term storage.....did I miss anything?

 

[cockpitbob]

I got some PMs, I got some cash, I got some guns, I got some ammo, I got some food for long term storage.....did I miss anything?

Booze. Whatcha drinking post SHTF?
{Hmmm, I wonder what a 55g drum of grain costs}

 

[the_shootist]

Booze. Whatcha drinking post SHTF?
{Hmmm, I wonder what a 55g drum of grain costs}

Where ARE my priorities?????

 

[allen-1]

I got some PMs, I got some cash, I got some guns, I got some ammo, I got some food for long term storage.....did I miss anything?

Water, (either stored or a supply)
Booze (Cockpitbob's correct) - it's good for trading, medicinal purposes and drinking
Medical Supplies
Toilet paper, (to clean off the fan)

 

[enbloc]

.

 

[Mr. Gold]

Yup,
This thread is slowly trickling towards a total SHTF scenario (Booze, Beans, Ammo, Guns)- ha! well, that's not a surprise!

But, for the novice reader who just stopped by - I am not talking about a total batshit mad max SHTF. All I really referred to was how to slowly get to a point from where the bank has most of my "cash" to actually having that cash -real, in my hands or in other assets- without being seen like I'm an up-and-coming drug lord.

IMO, there is a very long distance between what's happening in Greece, and a full blown SHTF. While a SHTF is totally possible, I think we'd all agree that Greece is not even a far fetched idea, and some may say it's inevitable, and only a matter of time.

 

[Christian]

Books, lots of books. And not the Harlequin Romances either but medical/engineering/chemistry/ Do-it-yourself/hunting & trapping...etc.
Someday, maybe soon, you will need good-old paper books again.
The Digital Age teeters...

I've grabbed some from here and put them on my old school Kindle 3G Keyboard. I picked it up when it first came out and finally replaced the original battery last month, load it up with books and turn off the 3G and wifi and the battery lasts forever.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/

 

[Prepper]

Yup,
This thread is slowly trickling towards a total SHTF scenario (Booze, Beans, Ammo, Guns)- ha! well, that's not a surprise!

But, for the novice reader who just stopped by - I am not talking about a total batshit mad max SHTF. All I really referred to was how to slowly get to a point from where the bank has most of my "cash" to actually having that cash -real, in my hands or in other assets- without being seen like I'm an up-and-coming drug lord.

IMO, there is a very long distance between what's happening in Greece, and a full blown SHTF. While a SHTF is totally possible, I think we'd all agree that Greece is not even a far fetched idea, and some may say it's inevitable, and only a matter of time.

If you have concern about withdrawing money all at once, you could simply spend it out while not putting any more in from your paycheck. Unless you have year's worth of potential spending saved up, just spending normally from your checking account will get it out of there sooner or later.

Of course, then you have to figure out how to get paid without using direct deposit. Where I work, this is no longer an option. They won't mail me a check; I have to give them the banking information. If I did figure out how to get around this, then I'm left with the problem of getting that in cash twice a month. I don't want to say what I earn (it's nothing huge), but getting that in cash twice a month will be enough to annoy the typical bank. They'll probably file SAR's on me as well for doing so. I'm probably better off just letting it direct deposit.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Of course, then you have to figure out how to get paid without using direct deposit. Where I work, this is no longer an option. They won't mail me a check; I have to give them the banking information. If I did figure out how to get around this, then I'm left with the problem of getting that in cash twice a month. I don't want to say what I earn (it's nothing huge), but getting that in cash twice a month will be enough to annoy the typical bank. They'll probably file SAR's on me as well for doing so. I'm probably better off just letting it direct deposit.

Make direct deposit work for you.

Most employers are set up to allow divvying up direct deposit across multiple accounts. Open a new free checking account with a credit union, send $600 of your paycheck to that account, and just pull $300 a week out of an ATM. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Cd662]

Kevin NH's first post on the thread sums it up. I've been in retail banking for awhile. Personally I've filed CTRs and "Suspicious Activity Reports" for years. I don't think anyone in banking really cares about people taking their money for personal reasons. The banks are required to do this from the Bank Secrecy Act. I've heard of some rumor that banks need to file X amount of CTRs or else they get fined but I've never heard of anything like that. Bank staff can file suspicious activity reports but it doesn't really mean anything. In fact at my company, I've honestly seen places that are overtly doing things that should result in account closure never get closed down despite numerous reports.

I only file suspicious activity reports if something blatantly doesn't make sense. For example, one branch I worked at had a fair amount of these random business accounts that were all opened by foreign individuals claiming to have a real estate presence. The accounts were opened with cash and there were frequent cash deposits made below the 10,000 dollar thresh hold. The people making the deposits would ask me how to avoid reporting guidelines. The entire amount of the account would then be wired out of the country and the process would start over again. There is obviously some sort of tax evasion or concealed purpose for the money here. I wouldn't do it if someone came in and said they wanted 15,000 in cash to prepare for the end of the world or to purchase a bunch of guns. I WOULD file one if someone came in and said "I need to buy a bunch of guns so I can remove some of the problems in this country." If someone told me they wanted to take the money and bury it in their back yard, I wouldn't personally care since it's up to them if they want to file taxes or not.

 

[Cd662]

Also regarding diversifying and having multiple banks, I don't really see any huge value to it right now unless you're a rate shopper and are willing to play musical chairs to gain a smidgen of extra interest. All banks are paying really crappy interest rates on FDIC insured products. All banks are covered by the FDIC and most credit unions also have their own coverage to my knowledge. Right now, that is the biggest reason for keeping bank accounts. You can title accounts differently to maximize your coverage past the default 250,000 dollar coverage. Banks regularly buy each other out but there isn't really any risk I see. Having an account at Citizens, People's, and Bank of America isn't going to make you more money or make your life more secure because your deposit value isn't going to lose value even if the bank decides to close up shop (unlikely to happen). If anything, you're just increasing the risk of missing some fine print about how an account feature was changed and you'll have to deal with fees.

 

[allen-1]

So, circling back to the original post, sort of, and touching on JayB's post. A lot depends upon what bank you're dealing with. Jay's banker obviously knows him, recognizes him and his patterns. My local banker knows me. I have electronic deposits made regularly and I transfer funds electronically regularly all the time. I also walk in regularly and withdraw fairly large sums of cash. They don't report them unless it's 10 grand or over because then they have to. If they didn't know me, or they *suspected* that I was doing something nefarious they might file a report just to keep themselves distanced from my activities. But it's a reasonably small town, and they do know me. Same as Jay, when he pulls out 25 grand to buy a backhoe, that's what he's doing. When I pull out 25 grand and exchange it for a certified check to buy a camper, that's what I'm doing.

Stockpiling cash is simple, you do it the same way that you do grocery shopping. Pick up some extra and store it at home. Instead of leaving it at the bank, put it in your house. So, each week, bring home an extra 50, 100, 500 - whatever fits into your budget and put it into your safe/mattress/hidey-hole and don't touch it unless you have a true emergency.