Question about Cash

the_shootist said:
Confiscated his cash? On what grounds? Why can't the dude carry his cash around?
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Civil forfeiture.

In this case, the cash was seized by a federal agency, most likely the Drug Enforcement Administration, according to Richmond airport spokesman Troy Bell. "I don't believe the person was issued a summons or a citation," he said. "The traveler was allowed to continue on his way."
If true, that would make this incident just the latest case of civil asset forfeiture at the nation's major transportation hubs. In recent months several high-profile stories have surfaced of passengers who had large sums of cash seized by the DEA, including a young man at an Amtrak stop, a college student at the Cincinnati airport, and a nail salon owner in New York. While the DEA took the cash in these cases under suspicion of its involvement in drug trafficking, no drug charges been filed in any of the cases.
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This is all legal under the laws governing civil asset forfeiture, and there's no question that carrying large sums of cash is unusual. But many critics of the practice, including some in Congress, are calling for a major overhaul of civil forfeiture, saying too many people have had their assets seized inappropriately.
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Kevin_NH said:
"Some" cash is good. Storing large bundles of cash is not. Both of these measures are highly subjective, how much folding money you keep should be relative to your available funds, your risk tolerance, your level of paranoia.

What I'm really saying is that any cash you hold in the form of modern currency, don't think of it as an investment, but rather as a depreciating asset.
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This is why I like the idea of ammo as an investment/currency. It's practical (you can shoot it). It doesn't have a shelf life. It's likely to increase in value, especially if things go south. It's negotiable (you could barter with it). It's in small enough denominations (you can't buy food with gold/silver coins -- well maybe you could, but you don't expect to get any change back).

I've had this thought about ammo for a while, any comments on it?
 
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sixer said:
This is why I like the idea of ammo as an investment/currency. It's practical (you can shoot it). It doesn't have a shelf life. It's likely to increase in value, especially if things go south. It's negotiable (you could barter with it). It's in small enough denominations (you can't buy food with gold/silver coins -- well maybe you could, but you don't expect to get any change back).

I've had this thought about ammo for a while, any comments on it?
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Well, it is up there in the three B's , Beans Bullets Bandages..

And yes, it's a very popular stocking item. Everything you mentioned is true. What's nice is that you can barter with it without any major calamity happening. Of course, barter in general is not very popular while the currency is doing fine, so most will still prefer $15 over a box of ammo, but still, some wouldn't mind in order to show some flexibility.

For SHTF scenario - yup, one of the best items to have (or better yet, be able to produce yourself).
 
sixer said:
This is why I like the idea of ammo as an investment/currency. It's practical (you can shoot it). It doesn't have a shelf life. It's likely to increase in value, especially if things go south. It's negotiable (you could barter with it). It's in small enough denominations (you can't buy food with gold/silver coins -- well maybe you could, but you don't expect to get any change back).

I've had this thought about ammo for a while, any comments on it?
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Think of ammunition as one element of a "diversified portfolion". Under my direct control, (on my premises), I have food, water, sundries, a generator, a source of heat, firearms, ammunition, coins/PM, and currency. This "portfolio" should get me through everything from ordering takeout pizza through a blizzard or NorEaster or something more serious that disrupts communications and/or the economy for a longer period of time.

If your only unit of barter is ammunition, you're not prepared for a simple blackout of several days when cash would be useful. Last winter, Hartford didn't have power for 10 days. People couldn't use their credit/debit cards.
 
Kevin_NH said:
I've been through training on this, but it's been a year or so, I am not up on the latest in regulations and reporting... Yes, but for the most part they aren't interested in "us". I've taken financial industry Anti-Money-Laundering (AML) training. Banking compliance is mostly about obvious red flags and "Know Your Customer" policies. If your behavior suddenly changes, especially if you start making cash deposits/purchases , any cash-handling business (bank, credit union, car dealership, western union, etc) are supposed to generate a Suspicious Activity Report and for any transaction exceeding reporting thresholds, must file a currency transaction report (CTR) to FinCEN. That said, most reports, especially withdrawal reports for a few thousand, are no big deal, the government admits they barely glance at them. Part of the problem is the $10K limit wasn't indexed to inflation, so the Feds get a huge volume of reports these days -- the rate of SAR reports alone has tripled since 2003, to over 5K reports per day. Withdrawing cash in amounts up to perhaps $4K is not a big deal; if anybody asks, just say Foxwoods, or Foxy Lady. If your bank thinks you are a degenerate gambler (or just a degenerate) that one bank might be reluctant to loan you money, but will be happy to let you spend your own money that came from a legit deposit. Or if you don't want to deal with a teller, you can also have your bank increase your ATM withdrawal limit -- most ATMs can distribute a maximum of 40 bills per transaction, and Sovereign Bank, for example, has a daily ATM withdrawal limit of $1,000; some banks go as high as $2,500. The reports are filed monthly, but I don't think there's any requirement to track your transactions over a 30-day period. $10K is the limit that requires a CTR, but there are two other types of reports. While they can file CTR for smaller transactions, financial institutions must file if you move $10K in currency or currency equivalents in a 24-hour period, or in "related" transactions. And any business in a regulated industry is mandated by FinCEN to report transactions where they “have knowledge that (transactions) are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any one business day.”. Financial institutions will file a SAR when you hit about $5K if they have any reason to suspect something is not right, and for certain types of transaction, the trigger amount is lower -- If, for example, you are buying money orders, as little as $2K can trigger a SAR if the institution believes "The transaction has no business or apparent lawful purpose and knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining the available facts, including the background and possible purpose of the transaction." It's all well documented at fincen.gov. Beyond the regulated industries, any person or business receiving $10K in cash or cash equivalent, in a single transaction or related transactions, must file IRS Form 8300 documenting the source and transation. Sitting on cash in the form of US banknotes isn't great use of your savings. As long as you are under the FDIC insurance limits, your cash is safer in a US bank earning 0.01% interest than it will be sitting in a coffee can under the rose bushes in your side yard. OTOH, if you have an extra $5K with no need for liquidity, turning that surplus into junk silver isn't the worst thing you could do. A sudden change in your behavior should trigger a report, and maybe a question from your teller. But taking out $1K at a time is no big deal, isn't going to have the gov't kicking down your door next month (I'd worry more about non-government thugs, and changes in policy 5 years down the road). Department of the Treasury maintains two databases of Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) data (which includes CTR, SAR, and such), but unless they have reason to look at your activity, it will just be recorded and ignored... for now. The first time you try to take out a chunk of cash, the teller is going to suggest getting it in the form of a money order or cashier's check (these are "currency equivalents" and will still result in a CTR). Just decline politely, or reference the above Fox... explanation if you feel like you must elaborate. I doubt the IRS is going to take an interest in citizens who pull out cash in increments of a few thousand dollars, yes there will be a report, but no it won't result in anything happening to you. Maybe if you work in a sensitive job with a top secret clearance then your sudden change in behavior might be an issue for your clearance, but the IRS doesn't care if the average citizen has a gambling problem or is being blackmailed or whatever. Once you've established a pattern of semi-regular cash withdrawals for the weekend, the bank will just ignore your now usual transaction pattern and (probably) stop generating reports. Just don't try depositing a lump sum of cash later -- cash deposits are massive red flags!
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This...accurate, complete and rational. The thread should end with this post. Well done Sir. Rep point inbound when I get to my desktop.

In the world of reality, this is the way it is. If y'all want to bitch 'bout the way it should there is nothing stopping you, but the information is accurate and the advice is solid.
 
For short term disasters cash is king. You will not be bartering except at owner operated shops where the owner is on duty ... which is fine if you need some tailoring or cobbling done, but tough if you want to buy bread or gas for the generator.

We have had numerous short/medium disasters where it was hard to use instruments (credit/debit cards, checks, etc) but cash was still accepted. Think the NYC blackout in the mid 70s; the Long Island hurricane; Katrina; etc. There was no way you were walking into a gas station (if you could find one that was operational) and say "how many gallons for a couple boxes of .223" and get a fill-up.

And, if there were a disaster of that scale in MA, nobody would be counting on the ammo sale/possession/licensing requirement being voided due to the disaster (nor would unlicensed shopkeeps be terribly interested in ammo they could not use).
 
Rob Boudrie said:
For short term disasters cash is king. You will not be bartering except at owner operated shops where the owner is on duty ... which is fine if you need some tailoring or cobbling done, but tough if you want to buy bread or gas for the generator.

We have had numerous short/medium disasters where it was hard to use instruments (credit/debit cards, checks, etc) but cash was still accepted. Think the NYC blackout in the mid 70s; the Long Island hurricane; Katrina; etc. There was no way you were walking into a gas station (if you could find one that was operational) and say "how many gallons for a couple boxes of .223" and get a fill-up.

And, if there were a disaster of that scale in MA, nobody would be counting on the ammo sale/possession/licensing requirement being voided due to the disaster (nor would unlicensed shopkeeps be terribly interested in ammo they could not use).
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Yeah perhaps I should have been a little clearer. I wasn't suggesting it as an alternative to cash. I like to have cash on me and stored at home at all times. Certainly in a short or medium term situation, cash is king. In a serious and rapid currency devaluing situation is where I'm saying ammo would be a more practical investment than PM. As has been stated previously, spread things out among different investments -- traditional and not so traditional.
 
allen-1 said:
If you're putting away substantial amounts, or semi-substantial amounts of cash or metal, think of it as part of your estate - make some sort of provision to let your kids know where it is in case you and your wife die suddenly... (sorry to bring that depressing thought, but it's there).
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This. Hiding cash and valuables is easy, it's finding them that can sometimes prove to be a problem.

I have a friend who owns a (legal) business that deals largely in cash. He likes to keep decent sized stacks (thousands) squirrelled away all over the place, but he can never quite remember where everything is. Most recently he had found a bag of something like $5k in the wall of his basement. He wasn't expecting to find it when he did, and when he checked it out the bills were all chewed up and stuck together - I guess bugs and/or moisture had got in. Be careful where and how you store stuff kids.
 
Greece is very interesting in the way they are stealing people's money. Your money in the bank can't be removed in an entire lump sum. They give you just enough to eat on out of the ATM and you wait in long lines to get that. Plus they shut off your credit cards. Their government got the country deep in debt and blames it on the citizens and those citizens get their money stolen in a "haircut".

Now you look at all the changes here in banking where your deposit is considered part of the bank finances and a loan to the bank. Plus they are watching closely how much cash you move so yes it does look like we will be "Greeced". However if they do the same thing here and shut down the EBT cards cash won't mean a lot when it all gets ugly.
 
just jim said:
Greece is very interesting in the way they are stealing people's money. Your money in the bank can't be removed in an entire lump sum. They give you just enough to eat on out of the ATM and you wait in long lines to get that. Plus they shut off your credit cards. Their government got the country deep in debt and blames it on the citizens and those citizens get their money stolen in a "haircut".

Now you look at all the changes here in banking where your deposit is considered part of the bank finances and a loan to the bank. Plus they are watching closely how much cash you move so yes it does look like we will be "Greeced". However if they do the same thing here and shut down the EBT cards cash won't mean a lot when it all gets ugly.
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From what i hear from a friend who's a Greek businessman, Greek business people cheat each other (which is why he moved to the US), people don't pay taxes, and the government rewarded themselves with rich pensions and benefits using EU money. I think the people share a lot of the blame.
 
Varmint said:
From what i hear from a friend who's a Greek businessman, Greek business people cheat each other (which is why he moved to the US), people don't pay taxes, and the government rewarded themselves with rich pensions and benefits using EU money. I think the people share a lot of the blame.
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I am sure when they Greece us they will say we deserved it too. Government here giving itself big pensions and spending our money like crazy, do you feel like it's your fault, I don't but they will still blame us as they steal what we have saved all our lives.
 
just jim said:
I am sure when they Greece us they will say we deserved it too. Government here giving itself big pensions and spending our money like crazy, do you feel like it's your fault, I don't but they will still blame us as they steal what we have saved all our lives.
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We share some blame but nothing like Greece. Americans generally are hard working and pay their taxes. The half that work anyway.
 
Varmint said:
We share some blame but nothing like Greece. Americans generally are hard working and pay their taxes. The half that work anyway.
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That half that works is the half with money just sitting there waiting for a government haircut. Americans will be demonized just like the Greeks are when time comes to Greece us. Ya'll might figure out the best way to protect your wealth but don't talk about it on the net cause the thieves read what you are doing. The banks in Greece won't even let you get your valuables out of the safety deposit boxes.
 
Even the Feds aren't dumb enough to cause the FSA to rise up. When things start going south in the USA, you can rest assured that up until the last days, EBT cards will still work.

just jim said:
Greece is very interesting in the way they are stealing people's money. Your money in the bank can't be removed in an entire lump sum. They give you just enough to eat on out of the ATM and you wait in long lines to get that. Plus they shut off your credit cards.
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Are you sure about the credit card thing? I have a friend in Greece, and she says regular card-present transactions at brick and mortar merchants are working fine, but she can't buy anything from a vendor outside of Greece with her Greek credit card.

Plus they are watching closely how much cash you move so yes it does look like we will be "Greeced".
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I doubt there are more than 2 people who regularly post on NES who actually have enough liquid assets in the bank that "they" care how much you take out in the form of greenbacks. You can go ahead and pull out all the cash you want, nothing bad will happen (maybe a SAR gets filed with ten thousand other such reports). Just be careful moving it around, and don't try to deposit it, or spend it all in one place.
 
Ive said before, .gov will steal every working persons last nickel and use it to buy one more piece of bread for the FSA types just so they can keep the ball rolling for another six hours.
 
the_shootist said:
Yeah well, in my case I chose cash, silver, gold, guns, ammo and food.....call me crazy but I sleep soundly at night
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Subtract gold (i don't have the $) and add land, and I'm with you. I've also invested in force multipliers, and training. A time may come when both are more valuable than gold.
 
Kevin_NH said:
Even the Feds aren't dumb enough to cause the FSA to rise up. When things start going south in the USA, you can rest assured that up until the last days, EBT cards will still work.


Are you sure about the credit card thing? I have a friend in Greece, and she says regular card-present transactions at brick and mortar merchants are working fine, but she can't buy anything from a vendor outside of Greece with her Greek credit card.


I doubt there are more than 2 people who regularly post on NES who actually have enough liquid assets in the bank that "they" care how much you take out in the form of greenbacks. You can go ahead and pull out all the cash you want, nothing bad will happen (maybe a SAR gets filed with ten thousand other such reports). Just be careful moving it around, and don't try to deposit it, or spend it all in one place.
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Until the cops seize their life savings as drug money....
 
JayMcB said:
Subtract gold (i don't have the $) and add land, and I'm with you. I've also invested in force multipliers, and training. A time may come when both are more valuable than gold.
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What are force multipliers in a civilian sense?

+1 on training, trying to do as much as budget and family life allow.
 
JayMcB said:
Subtract gold (i don't have the $) and add land, and I'm with you. I've also invested in force multipliers, and training. A time may come when both are more valuable than gold.
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Land is good for adding some diversity. If all else fails. you can actually live on it, assuming the property taxes can be paid.
 
headednorth said:
Ive said before, .gov will steal every working persons last nickel and use it to buy one more piece of bread for the FSA types just so they can keep the ball rolling for another six hours.
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right. because we all have to contribute our "fair share" and if you have money and I don't and I need to buy food, the .gov is going to make sure I get food I didn't work for.

this would so easily be done and it would be done in the name of "paying the hard working businesses for the goods they provide"
 

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