psychologist and getting your ltc

[matt1956]

mmmm.... when was the last time we had a draft?

and how many of our armed service men and women have come home suffering from PTSD and would be denied a LTC because fo this, yet with therapy, they can deal with and even reverse the effects...

 

[Rob]

On my way to work I mentally wrote the perfect post, but others have largely beat me to it.

My addition to the conversation is, if you think people can 'snap out of it' then you are too ignorant to know that chemical imbalances are not something you can largely control mentally, consciously, or willingly. If you've found a way, then you should get the Nobel.

Some people need medications to function like a normal human in society. Others need medications to not go completely insane. There is a very important and distinct difference between the two. Yes there can be some overlap in some people and for different reason, and there are many subtle levels of both. The word 'depression' is a catch-all used by people to generalize mood disorders. Not all mood disorders are created equally nor are they treated the same way. And not all impair judgment or cognitive ability to know right from wrong.

As to treating a chemical imbalance with spiritual meditation and self healing....yeah ok. Go for it. Be a Buddhist monk in a temple somewhere. I need to work and get on with my life, not sit in a candle lit room saying silent prayers and wearing a toga.

There are thousands of medical conditions in which the patient needs medications. Would you deny someone with a heart condition nitro, Digitalis, or BP meds? Do they NEED that medication? Could they live without meds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Would you berate someone for actually trying to address problems they are having with their body/mind?

If you can go your whole life and not feel one day of sadness, then perhaps you are in a manic state...not 'depressed' but the other way around. Always 'up' and never down. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Now as to 2A rights, and if someone with a mood disorder or crazy drooling bounce off the walls in a white coat disorder should be able to own a gun, that's not for me or you to decide. I personally wouldn't want the 'psycho' to have a gun. Hence the caveat in the paperwork "hospitalized for a mental disorder" or something like that. But unless the .gov changes the rules as to LTC eligibility to include anyone and everyone who has ever been through a rough patch and needed some medication, there will be thousands upon thousands of people on meds with guns.

I take medication for mood and carry a gun every day. You must be terrified of me.

 

[M1911]

I'm not gonna lie the meds helped her, my problem is that meds should be the last resort to consider if anything else hasn't be tried.

So, when did you complete medical school? Have you finished your residency in psychiatry? Are you board certified yet?

No to all of the above? OK, have you read the literature on the various types of therapy and which are most effective? No?

 

[Carguy]

First off I like to look at worst case scenarios...she is a bus driver, what you gonna do when she stops taking her pills and shoots your children? Is that what we do...Wait until it happens..then reform the laws?

Bro my bad, but what happens when your Rx runs out? People like me? You can't speak for all depressed people either...and I'm not into this whole theory of taking pills to solve your problems...its only been done in the last century and I don't think God intended it to be that way, thats why he gave us Cannabis . But guys seriously I'm sorry about your depression, I just feel like theres spiritual ways to get out of depression rather then popping a synthetic pill that make these pharmies super rich and powerful....

p.s. don't label me as a pot head hippie, although I do think marijuana should be legal. Hell my dad grew up in the reefer madness era..he thinks the shit should be legalized..unless people on the forum here still thinks it makes you wanna murder your family..lets be honest marijuana is illegal because blacks smoked it and God forbit a black man with a white women....

WOW! You just rationalized every outrageous gun law in place or being proposed! You don't want to wait for something to happen first...take away someone's rights "just in case". Who needs "insert type of firearm here", Democrat's opinion is no one so they try to ban it...taking away your rights. How about taking your comment literally, you never know who will lose it and go nuts, so no one should be allowed to own a firearm. As a matter of fact baseball should be outlawed as those darn bats are dangerous. Heaven knows there have been many a beating given using a baseball bat. We can't be sure who will snap next...Manny Ramierez? Do you really feel safe with him wielding a bat?! And how about glass beer bottles? Take a shot with one of those over your head and who knows what could happen? Break one and you could slice someone's throat...not that that has ever happened but it could! No more beer!!!!! Call the DEMS, you could organize their policy platform for the next election.

Thank GOD for giving man the ability to think and rationalize. That is why we are a level above the apes. Man has the ability to use his intelliegnce to create medicine that can help people with illnesses (mental or physical) and that IS how GOD intended it. Not everyone has the same ability to think and rationalize but it is there and if you believe in GOD as you referenced then you must believe that that IS the way GOD intended it. Some people choose not to use modern medicine and that is part of using or not using your GOD given intelligence. God gave you the ability and right to think and act...we cannot allow the elected officials take away either on a whim. If someone is a danger to themselves or the public in general I am all for removal of their weapons but they must do something to lose that right...it can't be done indiscriminately.

And your generralization of a black man being with a white woman being radical, negative, beyond the mainstream, unacceptable and the re4ason for making pot illegal...have you read the papers? There was a past president that smoked pot, he was white, liberal, and a womanizer...not Mr. Conservative, he didn't think it should be legalized. There is a gentleman in the White House now running the country that is born of a black man and a white woman. How can it be that he got elected if this is so against the mainstream? Sorry but your point of view is just way out there...maybe it's the canabis...maybe it is my addiction to modern medicine (I take an aspirin a day) but I just don't get it.

 

[DevX]

First off I like to look at worst case scenarios...she is a bus driver, what you gonna do when she stops taking her pills and shoots your children? Is that what we do...Wait until it happens..then reform the laws?

Think of the children! For the love of all that is holy, the children! Won't someone save the children?!

There should be a law, you know, to protect the childrens!


When did seeing a psychologist automatically = depression?

 

[Herrminator]

On my way to work I mentally wrote the perfect post, but others have largely beat me to it.

My addition to the conversation is, if you think people can 'snap out of it' then you are too ignorant to know that chemical imbalances are not something you can largely control mentally, consciously, or willingly. If you've found a way, then you should get the Nobel.

Some people need medications to function like a normal human in society. Others need medications to not go completely insane. There is a very important and distinct difference between the two. Yes there can be some overlap in some people and for different reason, and there are many subtle levels of both. The word 'depression' is a catch-all used by people to generalize mood disorders. Not all mood disorders are created equally nor are they treated the same way. And not all impair judgment or cognitive ability to know right from wrong.

As to treating a chemical imbalance with spiritual meditation and self healing....yeah ok. Go for it. Be a Buddhist monk in a temple somewhere. I need to work and get on with my life, not sit in a candle lit room saying silent prayers and wearing a toga.

There are thousands of medical conditions in which the patient needs medications. Would you deny someone with a heart condition nitro, Digitalis, or BP meds? Do they NEED that medication? Could they live without meds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Would you berate someone for actually trying to address problems they are having with their body/mind?

If you can go your whole life and not feel one day of sadness, then perhaps you are in a manic state...not 'depressed' but the other way around. Always 'up' and never down. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Now as to 2A rights, and if someone with a mood disorder or crazy drooling bounce off the walls in a white coat disorder should be able to own a gun, that's not for me or you to decide. I personally wouldn't want the 'psycho' to have a gun. Hence the caveat in the paperwork "hospitalized for a mental disorder" or something like that. But unless the .gov changes the rules as to LTC eligibility to include anyone and everyone who has ever been through a rough patch and needed some medication, there will be thousands upon thousands of people on meds with guns.

I take medication for mood and carry a gun every day. You must be terrified of me.

awesome response. Again guys I want to reiterate that I like to take certain sides of a discussion to get good responses, call it maniacal or even crazy, oh shit maybe I need some meds lol. On the real, I know a lot of you guys are good men who just want to defend their God given rights, yea everyone who is on meds isn't gonna shoot anybody up, but thats why we discuss this on the internet, I wouldn't have this conversation in public because I'd be scared someone could snap.
What I don't like is the young person bashing, honestly if it were up to me in a situation to take someone out I'd trust the young trained well and fit 23 year old rather then the macular degenerate pill taker.

 

[Bob P]

Wow isn't that amazing how nature defends itself so animals won't eat it? I know awesome right.....okay look at heroin and cocaine...they both are natural occurring plants but they didn't get bad until man changed the composition and made them potent as hell.

Fine. Then abjure all modern medication. Got a headache? No asprin for you, go chew willow bark. God forbid you get an infection, cancer, diabetes, heart condition or a stroke - all things that if man didn't change the composition of 'naturally occurring plants' and made them more potent you would DIE from.

But go ahead. Treat yourself with only naturarlly occurring plants.

 

[Bob P]

awesome response. Again guys I want to reiterate that I like to take certain sides of a discussion to get good responses, call it maniacal or even crazy, oh shit maybe I need some meds lol. On the real, I know a lot of you guys are good men who just want to defend their God given rights, yea everyone who is on meds isn't gonna shoot anybody up, but thats why we discuss this on the internet, I wouldn't have this conversation in public because I'd be scared someone could snap.
What I don't like is the young person bashing, honestly if it were up to me in a situation to take someone out I'd trust the young trained well and fit 23 year old rather then the macular degenerate pill taker.

If you don't want to be on the end of 'young person bashing' then don't act like a know-it-all a**h*** when you post your inflammatory shit.

And I say that with all love and respect.

 

[Mass-diver]

So, when did you complete medical school? Have you finished your residency in psychiatry? Are you board certified yet?

No to all of the above? OK, have you read the literature on the various types of therapy and which are most effective? No?

+1000. For people with moderate/severe depression the intial therapy ALWAYS includes meds. Why? Because the rate of death (suicide) is so much lower with these people when they are given meds that it has become a basic standard of care.

 

[Rob]

....yea everyone who is on meds isn't gonna shoot anybody up, but thats why we discuss this on the internet, I wouldn't have this conversation in public because I'd be scared someone could snap.
What I don't like is the young person bashing, honestly if it were up to me in a situation to take someone out I'd trust the young trained well and fit 23 year old rather then the macular degenerate pill taker.

I'd gladly discuss this in person with anyone. Let ME reiterate something. Not everyone taking medication for a mood disorder is going to snap at the first mention of "why do you take meds?"

Personally I'd take the more experienced, older, and wiser person with whom to have a meaningful conversation about psychological problems. Young people are often, if not always, too rash. Sound familiar?

 

[2 Bear Arms]

Why?

You've just admitted you know very little about the disease yet your willing to deprive someone suffering it of their natural and Constitutional right of self-defense. Now justify your position.

I want to repeat do not confuse being depressed with Clinical Depression.

If I have done this correctly this is the link to the entry in Wikipedia regarding clinical depression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(clinical)

I think a lot of the medical community (in error) has a tendency to medicate someone for clinical depression that is just depressed.

So to justify my personal feelings, which there should be no need to do, as they are my personal feelings. I will say that from my previously mentioned friends description (that I didn’t go into here) of CLINICAL DEPRESSION and if you carefully read the Wikipedia entry. I don’t see it as a good idea for a person with Clinical depression to have a gun. Now that brings up the other point of can Clinical Depression be controlled to the point that the person is suitable to possess a gun?

 

[darkstorm]

If seeing a psychologist was grounds for withholding a LTC.,we would have no police in this state.I believe I did see that question on the app. but it was so long ago I'm not sure.

 

[M1911]

+1000. For people with moderate/severe depression the intial therapy ALWAYS includes meds. Why? Because the rate of death (suicide) is so much lower with these people when they are given meds that it has become a basic standard of care.

There's lots of issues with the medical industry, including pharma companies pushing drugs that are marginally effective, doctor's slanting their research to benefit the pharma companies that funded the research, etc. It can be very hard to measure the benefits of the different therapies and different meds affect different people differently. I was just in a lecture this AM about how biased samples can lead to false results in biological studies.

But I am always taken aback when people with no training think they have all the answers.

I'd wager that very few people in the mental health field think pharmaceuticals should be the last option chosen. Are some pharmaceuticals over-prescribed? Sure. But lots of people get significant benefit from them as well.

 

[Bob P]

I want to repeat do not confuse being depressed with Clinical Depression.

If I have done this correctly this is the link to the entry in Wikipedia regarding clinical depression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(clinical)

I think a lot of the medical community (in error) has a tendency to medicate someone for clinical depression that is just depressed.

So to justify my personal feelings, which there should be no need to do, as they are my personal feelings. I will say that from my previously mentioned friends description (that I didn’t go into here) of CLINICAL DEPRESSION and if you carefully read the Wikipedia entry. I don’t see it as a good idea for a person with Clinical depression to have a gun. Now that brings up the other point of can Clinical Depression be controlled to the point that the person is suitable to possess a gun?

I am VERY familiar with the distinction between clinical depression and 'being depressed' - quite possibly more so then you. What I'm asking YOU not to do is to equate someone with a diagnosis of clinical depression THAT IS BEING CONTROLLED BY A COMBINATION OF MEDICATION AND THERAPY with someone who is an imminant danger to himself or others.

There is no reason for the former not to have a gun. There is an EXCELLENT reason for the latter not to have a gun. The current laws are designed to address the latter. What I'm asking YOU is for a justification for extending the prohibition to bear arms to the former.

 

[matt1956]

I wouldn't have this conversation in public because I'd be scared someone could snap.
What I don't like is the young person bashing, honestly if it were up to me in a situation to take someone out I'd trust the young trained well and fit 23 year old rather then the macular degenerate pill taker.

maybe i've delt with more '23' ish year olds then you, but most them are pretty 'ignorant' (and i mean that in the actaul sense of the word, not as an insult) and arrogant.

generally smart enough to know a few things that their professors taught them but dumb enough to be very dangerous.

still have that teenage feeling of invincibility and yet a surprisingly bigger ego to go along with it.

and just arrogant enough to think they are 'well trained' and smarter then someone that has been around 15 to 30 years longer.

I used to have a job that thinking back was pretty dangerous when i was 23 compared to what i do now. back then, i loved it and was in it for the 'fight' at the time. i refer to those days as my younger and 'stupider' days.

I've learned that in general, wisdom does come with age.

so I would surely trust a 40 year old on an SSI then a 23 year old on nothing.

and refering to anyone that takes a pill(s) to balance their emotions as a

degenerate pill taker

just goes to prove the hight of ignorance and arrogance

 

[drgrant]

My friends claims his mother has a pistol and LTC. She had a bad divorce with my friends father and she swallows a hand full of anti-depressants in the morning just to get up....

Not only does this scare me, but I think people with disorders like depression should never be able to carry a gun....

Apparently then, you probably believe that a large double digit percentage of people should have their rights
taken away, just because they're depressed? ok...

-Mike

 

[Bob P]

and refering to anyone that takes a pill(s) to balance their emotions as a just goes to prove the hight of ignorance and arrogance

In fairness to him - and I feel I owe fairness as I've been dumping all over him here - his quote was 'a macular degenerate pill taker'

Macular degeneration is also known as 'middle aged sight' and refers to the tendency for humans to lose middle vision at middle age. What he was trying to say was 'old guy that takes pills'.

Now that I've defended him, I'll agree it was an arrogant and assholish comment even so.

 

[Herrminator]

In fairness to him - and I feel I owe fairness as I've been dumping all over him here - his quote was 'a macular degenerate pill taker'

Macular degeneration is also known as 'middle aged sight' and refers to the tendency for humans to lose middle vision at middle age. What he was trying to say was 'old guy that takes pills'.

Now that I've defended him, I'll agree it was an arrogant and assholish comment even so.

thank you, but in my brain saying "pill taker" isn't suppose to be an a**h*** comments, it's clearly the facts, you take pills your a pill taker, I'm not calling you a f***in junkey am I?....now maybe I was harsh saying who should and shouldn't have a gun because you guys give really good points that I never heard, which I thank you for, but what in your head made you come to the conclusion that you need drugs in your life to fix things? The native Americans saw death and despair all around them, did they reach into their bottle of Zoloft to fix things?

Arrogant a**h*** comment no..its purely simple fact...your going to argue with me that 23 year olds hand eye coordination and reaction time aren't better then a middle aged mans? Forget all the logistics, I know all 23 year olds aren't the same as for all 60 year olds, but I grew up playing every almost every sport and video game (1100 in the world at Call of Duty WaW) hehe I know nerd right? Good argument right lol..I'm putting on the flame suit

 

[matt1956]

Big differance then simply saying 'pill taker' then

macular degenerate pill taker.

 

[Bob P]

thank you, but in my brain saying "pill taker" isn't suppose to be an a**h*** comments, it's clearly the facts, you take pills your a pill taker, I'm not calling you a f***in junkey am I?....now maybe I was harsh saying who should and shouldn't have a gun, but what in your head made you come to the conclusion that you need drugs in your life to fix things?

Dude, do you really want to play this game?

What I don't like is the young person bashing, honestly if it were up to me in a situation to take someone out I'd trust the young trained well and fit 23 year old rather then the macular degenerate pill taker.

Do you SERIOUSLY want to argue your use of the term 'macular degenerate pill taker' in that context wasn't intended to be inflammatory?

What made me come to the conclusion that I need drugs in my life to fix things? High blood pressure. I work out 5 times a week including weight training and a 3 mile run but my pressure's still high unless I take pills. It's genetic. If I don't control it I run the risk of stroke, kidney damage, heart attack or loss of vision. I'd rather not deal with any of those, so I take Quinapril.

 

[2 Bear Arms]

I am VERY familiar with the distinction between clinical depression and 'being depressed' - quite possibly more so then you. What I'm asking YOU not to do is to equate someone with a diagnosis of clinical depression THAT IS BEING CONTROLLED BY A COMBINATION OF MEDICATION AND THERAPY with someone who is an imminant danger to himself or others.

There is no reason for the former not to have a gun. There is an EXCELLENT reason for the latter not to have a gun. The current laws are designed to address the latter. What I'm asking YOU is for a justification for extending the prohibition to bear arms to the former.

That is the point I was making and if you read the last sentence in my post you will see that I am asking a question.

The term “suffering” from is used may times and I take that to mean not in control. If you are suffering pain you are actively having a problem with pain. If it is controlled then you aren’t suffering.

So I think we are in agreement that someone that doesn’t have their condition under control as you said it when referring to someone not in control “There is an EXCELLENT reason for the latter not to have a gun.” I think that is all I am saying also.

 

[Bob P]

That is the point I was making and if you read the last sentence in my post you will see that I am asking a question.

The term “suffering” from is used may times and I take that to mean not in control. If you are suffering pain you are actively having a problem with pain. If it is controlled then you aren’t suffering.

So I think we are in agreement that someone that doesn’t have their condition under control as you said it when referring to someone not in control “There is an EXCELLENT reason for the latter not to have a gun.” I think that is all I am saying also.

I said there's an excellent reason for someone who is a danger to themselves and/or others not to have a gun. Suicidal or homicidal. Most 'clinical' depressives are neither.

 

[KimberCT]

The native Americans saw death and despair all around them, did they reach into their bottle of Zoloft to fix things?

No, they self medicated with alcohol... heavily. To this day the Native American population has the highest rate of alcoholism in the United States. I don't think you could have picked a more ill-fitting group of people to base your argument on.

 

[2 Bear Arms]

I said there's an excellent reason for someone who is a danger to themselves and/or others not to have a gun. Suicidal or homicidal. Most 'clinical' depressives are neither.

And this part of the Wikipedia entry

“Most patients are treated in the community with antidepressant medication and some with psychotherapy or counseling. Hospitalization may be necessary in cases with associated self-neglect or a significant risk of harm to self or others”

agrees with you “Most”.

And I gather those other ones would be the people that would probably fall under the “institutionalised against your will”.

Marrage is an institution and it requires a real commitment. Hmm committed to an institution.

 

[Mass-diver]

No, they self medicated with alcohol... heavily. To this day the Native American population has the highest rate of alcoholism in the United States. I don't think you could have picked a more ill-fitting group of people to base your argument on.

Great point.

 

[Herrminator]

No, they self medicated with alcohol... heavily. To this day the Native American population has the highest rate of alcoholism in the United States. I don't think you could have picked a more ill-fitting group of people to base your argument on.

actually native americans didn't find out about booze until we brought it to them..they smoked tobacco and cannabis and also took hallucinogens...

http://www.essortment.com/all/nativeamerican_ragq.htm

As generation followed generation, and more of the culture and identity of the past was lost, newer generations of the Native population eventually found alcohol to be their only salvation. With no strong cultural heritage to lead them, and a continued lack of acceptance out in the world at large, there has been little else left them. Even if they could go back to the days of hunting buffalo and living off the land, where are the buffalo today, and what's become of the vast land that was once their cherished home?

 

[Bob P]

actually native americans didn't find out about booze until we brought it to them..they smoked tobacco and cannabis and also took hallucinogens...

http://www.essortment.com/all/nativeamerican_ragq.htm

They didn't take hallucinogens to cope, SOME tribes used them as part of religious rituals. Big difference.

Suggestion; stop going back and editing your posts to ammend your arguments after they've been responded to. It's annoying.

People used to use leaches and bleeding to deal with high blood pressure 100 years ago too - and died young anyway. I'd rather take Quinapril thanks.

The Native Americans didn't use them because they didn't HAVE them. They also died in the 40's on average. The biblical three score and 10 didn't become commonplace untill the latter half of the 20th Century.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Apparently then, you probably believe that a large double digit percentage of people should have their rights
taken away, just because they're depressed? ok...

-Mike

not only that, but he also thinks he knows how to protect people from themselves.

 

[Bob P]

thank you, but in my brain saying "pill taker" isn't suppose to be an a**h*** comments, it's clearly the facts, you take pills your a pill taker, I'm not calling you a f***in junkey am I?....now maybe I was harsh saying who should and shouldn't have a gun because you guys give really good points that I never heard, which I thank you for, but what in your head made you come to the conclusion that you need drugs in your life to fix things? The native Americans saw death and despair all around them, did they reach into their bottle of Zoloft to fix things?

Arrogant a**h*** comment no..its purely simple fact...your going to argue with me that 23 year olds hand eye coordination and reaction time aren't better then a middle aged mans? Forget all the logistics, I know all 23 year olds aren't the same as for all 60 year olds, but I grew up playing every almost every sport and video game (1100 in the world at Call of Duty WaW) hehe I know nerd right? Good argument right lol..I'm putting on the flame suit

No one denies that, on average, the hand eye coordination of a 23 year old is better then that of a 43 year old. It's why I stopped fencing. So what. 'Macular degenerate pill taker' was used as a pejoritive and ALL the revisions after the fact you make to your posts won't change the fact that you dropped a flame bait post and got flamed for it. If you were trying to make a point on fact alone you would have cited the ages w/o the embellishments. FURTHER, the origional point had nothing to do with physical ability but with the arrogance of youth.

Finally this macular degenerate pill popper would be happy to shoot 10 rounds timed with you over iron sights at 100yds and compare scores.

 

[Herrminator]

matt1956 nice edit but I'm a pacifist and I doubt you would have been able to kick my ass, I'm not the 23 year old you were, I'll defend myself but I don't assault someone for having different opinions like you would in your day. People should be able to hold their temper...and a short temper is one thing, but a short temper with a gun is worse. Maybe I'm just used to it...infact I was the fat kid with red cheeks, I was called Chunky bone noodles in school (lol), I made friends through humor and being a character and you guys obviously see that and through sports, but not once did I want to do harm to those that teased me..I knew that God had a plan for me and that karma just works everything out and its all meant for a reason.

I wanna tell you my experience with meds...I got asthma when I was about 3 years old any medicine you could name from using a nebulizer, albuterol, ventolin, advair...my asthma wasn't getting better from the meds...in fact my body became to self reliant on them that everyday around the same time my body would trigger an asthma attack like an addiction to the meds..without the quick fix inhaler I was a mess...even the sense of losing it and looking for it around my room triggered more asthma attacks.

Then I started taking advair in replace...it was a non aersol based inhaler that dispensed a powder which I hated and I still relied on my fast acting albuterol, then one day I just stopped all together, I fought through my asthma attacks with deep breathing and meditation..it was scary and hard but it worked...I don't take anything for it now...Teddy Roosevelt's father even blew cigar smoke in his face because he was born with asthma..