Prone position question

[schnips]

There is one aspect of shooting in the prone position that has always given me a bit of grief. To transition from one target to another I have always been told to "pick up your hips and move them in the appropriate direction." The problem is that my natural point of aim always seems to be the same both before and after I supposedly shift my hips. I have a feeling that I am doing something wrong but I can't figure out what it is. Is there a different way that the process can be described? Come to think of it maybe I should just do another Appleseed in the spring.

 

[M1911]

Did you also move your elbows?

 

[schnips]

Did you also move your elbows?

Come to think of it, I may have...I take it I'm not supposed to do that.

 

[M1911]

Come to think of it, I may have...I take it I'm not supposed to do that.

I'm not anywhere close to an expert with a rifle. But it would seem to me that you would have to move at least one of your elbows to significantly change your point of aim.

 

[jasons]

You basically want to use your weak-side elbow as the pivot point for your entire body. Plant that elbow, square your shoulders to the target, and adjust your hips and legs appropriately to get NPA.

Come to think of it, I may have...I take it I'm not supposed to do that.

Strong-side elbow will move. Your weak-side elbow should stay planted.

 

[Twigg]

You basically want to use your weak-side elbow as the pivot point for your entire body. Plant that elbow, square your shoulders to the target, and adjust your hips and legs appropriately to get NPA.
<snip>

Respectfully, I disagree:
Shooting prone with your shoulders square to the target like this is uncomfortable and difficult.

This is basically the same as attempting to shoot straight up while standing, it cramps the arms and your full weight is lying on your chest, which restricts breathing, among other issues.

When your body is oriented 30 to 45 degrees to the target you have a fixed anchor point with the elbow of the support arm. Bringing up the knee of the strong side leg opens up your torso and also rolls it to the support side getting your chest up off the ground assisting breathing and reducing the stress on your neck.

Neither picture completely expresses what I'm trying to communicate but I believe the OP will get the gist of what I'm saying.

When firing from prone and you need to adjust your NOPA you need to keep that support side elbow glued to the ground. If NOPA needs to go left, pick up the hips and pivot to the right on the anchor point.

If your rounds are impacting high, pick up those hips and scoot forward keeping that support side elbow glued to the ground, if shooting low, move hips backwards.

The two keys to remember are to keep that anchor point fixed and move your body around that point.

When ever you can't get to the range for some bang-bang time, find a spot where you can flop down in the house with a clear view of and electrical outlet and use the little round hole for a "target" and dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.

Just check the chamber first.

 

[jasons]

Everyone's position is a bit different and some guys do well shooting through the position like you describe. Squared up and shooting out of the position is ~technically~ correct but everyone is a bit different.

One thing to note, if you bend your strong side knee and bring it up you'll take some pressure off of your diaphragm while still keeping more of your body behind the gun. This can be especially helpful for guys like me who have a bit of a gut. (I used to be able to get a lot flatter, not so much these days.)

I would not recommend making elevation adjustments to your NPA with your hips. Moving your weak side hand (HAND, not elbow) further out to bring the NPA down and closer in to bring it up will probably allow for better fine-tuning.


Example of cocked strong-side leg:

EDIT: I just re-read what MrTwigg wrote and I think we're basically saying the same thing with regard to cocking the strong leg. I still like to be more squared to the target (maybe a ~slight~ angle,) but either way the key point is to keep that left elbow planted.

 

[mike93lx]

I completely agree with what Mr. Twigg and Jason said, but want to add one caveat. If you are using a bipod that doesn't swivel, you will need to lift your rifle and reposition it. It may sound like a simple thing, but if you twist the rifle to force the shot, you'll never be consistent.

 

[oneton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=player_embedded

for long range shooting..over 200 straight back is the way to go..

short range shooting..30* off set and only move your elbows. make the natural aim center range and work from there.

one more thing..get up high on your elbows using skeleton support..you should be able to hold that rifle all day and not get tired

 

[charliet]

Since when is long range over 200yds? Okay, neither one of the positions Mr Twigg has shown are correct, the picture Jasons has shown, knee bent with the body directly behind the rifle will allow the shooter to maintain a NPA and control recoil. The position, with the body off on one side will break down quickly with recoil...not to mention head position...the position flat on your gut wont let you breath to easy.

 

[jasons]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=player_embedded

for long range shooting..over 200 straight back is the way to go..

short range shooting..30* off set and only move your elbows. make the natural aim center range and work from there.

one more thing..get up high on your elbows using skeleton support..you should be able to hold that rifle all day and not get tired

The basic mechanics of the position stay the same whether you're shooting 10 meter air rifle or 1000 yard palma.

EDIT: Listen to Charlie, he knows what he's talking about. Distinguished Rifleman, President's 100, Palma 20, and NRA High Master (with a service rifle if I'm not mistaken,) none of which come easy. (I'll get there someday but I have a LONG way to go!)

 

[Admin]

Charlie has been known to hit black a few times during a match. Another good indicator that you have a solid prone position is then your shot breaks a good sight picture AND sight alignment should come back. You shouldn't have to muscle the rifle back to the center of the target, if you have to you don't have a solid position. Sights center, wind good, send it....

 

[PatMcD]

The correct NPA will also virtually eliminate crossfires. CORRECT NPA!
Ask me how I know.

 

[PatMcD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rkt1HRWdo&feature=player_embedded

for long range shooting..over 200 straight back is the way to go..

short range shooting..30* off set and only move your elbows. make the natural aim center range and work from there.

one more thing..get up high on your elbows using skeleton support..you should be able to hold that rifle all day and not get tired

Maybe that's the way the scope and bipod/sandbag guys do it, but not the no-supported position shooters.

 

[jasons]

The correct NPA will also virtually eliminate crossfires. CORRECT NPA!
Ask me how I know.

Lol. I'll bite. How do you know?

 

[PatMcD]

Lol. I'll bite. How do you know?

I had a couple of crossfires this past season, and each time I did, my scorer asked me "How's your NPA?". Sure enough, I was lined up on the target I shouldn't have been. Stupid.

 

[jasons]

I had a couple of crossfires this past season, and each time I did, my scorer asked me "How's your NPA?". Sure enough, I was lined up on the target I shouldn't have been. Stupid.

I did it twice last weekend. (Indoor / Outdoor offhand league.) Got to my point late and was rushing, screwed my whole routine up. Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Jasper]

good view from behind. notice the rifle is positioned directly behind the body. this helps absorb recoil. the knee is pulled back to create a tripod, of sorts, support elbow underneath the rifle, firing arm elbow used ONLY to stabilize your position.

ideally your hips are kept flat, but if you aren't skinny as a rail, that can create pressure on the stomach/chest, making breathing more difficult.

2 diff shooters, a lefty and a righty, both distinguished rifleman, both high masters. positions are damned near IDENTICAL. seems to be a pattern, doesn't it?

 

[jasons]

They could use that picture in a textbook.

 

[bpm990d]

This is the old school way of shooting prone. I think this might have developed from shooting hard kicking rifles with minimal padding. Old pictures from Perry show guys with home made shooting coats or just shirts with padding sewn on. I can't imagine shooting an M1903 with M1 Ball without a shooting coat, let alone in a behind the gun position. You would get the snot beat out of you and be black and blue.

I'm curious if the resident PMI knows about the history of shooting coats in USMC PMI?

B

 

[jasons]

I'm curious if the resident PMI knows about the history of shooting coats in USMC PMI?

I'm no PMI, but I'd like to know.

 

[Admin]

This is the old school way of shooting prone. I think this might have developed from shooting hard kicking rifles with minimal padding. Old pictures from Perry show guys with home made shooting coats or just shirts with padding sewn on. I can't imagine shooting an M1903 with M1 Ball without a shooting coat, let alone in a behind the gun position. You would get the snot beat out of you and be black and blue.

I'm curious if the resident PMI knows about the history of shooting coats in USMC PMI?

B

I don't know the history of the shooting jacket. Even when we were instructing recruits we were issued the shitty cloth super light weight shooting jacket for the M16. If it did anything it gave your elbows padding during snapping in week on the gravel and pavement, that's about it. If they used a similar type jacket back then it would have reduced recoil I imagine about the same amount as a handful of Kleenex tissues while you're wrapped in a loose blanket.

No idea why we wore them other than to not blow through our cammie blouses during our training cycles all year.

 

[bpm990d]

I never thought about the idea of protecting the uniforms.

I got the national matches book from the nra http://www.nrablog.com/post/2010/12/09/Camp-Perry-Book.aspx

It has pictures in there from Caldwell NJ of sailors in their white uniforms shooting. I'm guessing 1903. I don't see any shooting jackets. There is also a small blurb about coats and pads that were for sale when the 1903 came out. I don't know anything about Krags, but it sounds like the kick a lot softer than the 06.

B