VT CMP matches: Magazine question

Obi2winky

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I'm planning to go to VT for the CMP matches but I'm a bit confused about their new magazine law. Am I allowed to bring pre-94 20 round mags to VT for the match?
 

Mountain

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No.

There was a grace period for competition but that has expired. 10 round max now. CMP must now accommodate that law for the rules.

Reminds me that I need to swap out the single load follower from a pre ban 20 into a 10 round mag. I may not shoot high power this time but could shoot an AR in Modern Military if my M1A gets bounced. I heard the new C-F rules for Modern Military were strictly enforced at Perry.
 

Mountain

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Have you been to the VT match yet? IMHO it's a great time in a fantastic setting.
 

Obi2winky

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I see I see, I'm glad I asked. The CMP rules still require the same outside dimensions of a 20 round, correct?
I went last year to try out the small arms class and shot an AR for the first time and at a distance greater than 100 yards also for the first time. Did awful but had a blast! Since then I have collected most of the gear necessary and am planning to join the 80 round match, the EIC match and the SAFS match. Primary objective is to get good zeros for the Jericho range for the future!
 

jpk

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No.

There was a grace period for competition but that has expired. 10 round max now. CMP must now accommodate that law for the rules.

Reminds me that I need to swap out the single load follower from a pre ban 20 into a 10 round mag. I may not shoot high power this time but could shoot an AR in Modern Military if my M1A gets bounced. I heard the new C-F rules for Modern Military were strictly enforced at Perry.
Yes and no

The law reads that if a person had previously imported into Vt a mag that exceeds the new law they are permitted by law to re-import it back into the state

So as I read it.....if you have a mag(s) that you've brought into vt before the ban then its good to go

I'm quite certain that there are a great many people who fit the above....who have previously brought mags into the state and left with them and still own them

Question is proving it....for popo and citizens.....and whether or not you want to incur a large legal bill demonstrating that Vt cannot prove that you are guilty
 

Mountain

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Yes and no

The law reads that if a person had previously imported into Vt a mag that exceeds the new law they are permitted by law to re-import it back into the state

So as I read it.....if you have a mag(s) that you've brought into vt before the ban then its good to go

I'm quite certain that there are a great many people who fit the above....who have previously brought mags into the state and left with them and still own them

Question is proving it....for popo and citizens.....and whether or not you want to incur a large legal bill demonstrating that Vt cannot prove that you are guilty
I would not play around with this law, especially given the current political environment. How would one prove that those very mags had been previously imported? Still a firm no.

I doubt there are 20-round size mags that hold 10 rounds only, but there are several choices for 30-round size that will only hold 10 rounds. Use those if you want a big mag sticking out of the well. Personally a standard 10-round will have a smaller profile and IMHO a little bit of an advantage for keeping good position.

Nobody is going to be lurking around the base investigating for illegal mags. However, if one were to be pulled over on the highways it's likely that they will have a bunch of match gear visible that could get po-po's attention. Not worth the risk- spend the chump change for a couple 10-round mags.
 

jpk

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I would not play around with this law, especially given the current political environment. How would one prove that those very mags had been previously imported? Still a firm no.
as mentioned before, its a personal choice/risk

The law as written allows for reimportation

the burden of proof is not on you to prove you had a mag in the state of vermont prior to arbitrary date

the burden is on the state to prove you didnt.

unfortunately that process may be very costly so.....choose wisely
 

Mountain

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as mentioned before, its a personal choice/risk

The law as written allows for reimportation

the burden of proof is not on you to prove you had a mag in the state of vermont prior to arbitrary date

the burden is on the state to prove you didnt.

unfortunately that process may be very costly so.....choose wisely

Why beat this to death? The simple answer was 'no', get a couple 10-round mags.
 

jpk

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Why beat this to death? The simple answer was 'no', get a couple 10-round mags.
The answer according to law ISNT No.....The law is clear on this.

Everyone needs to be aware of what the law actually says and make their own decision

LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES, 13 V.S.A. § 4021

Beginning April 11, 2018, the manufacture, possession, transfer, sale, purchase, or receipt or importation into Vermont of large capacity ammunition feeding devices is prohibited. This prohibition does not apply to large capacity ammunition feeding devices lawfully possessed on or before April 11, 2018, and the prohibition on importation into Vermont does “not include the transportation back into this State of a large capacity ammunition feeding device by the same person who transported the device out of State if the person possessed the device on or before” April 11, 2018. The prohibition on possession, transfer, sale, and purchase of large capacity ammunition feeding devices lawfully possessed by licensed dealers before April 11, 2018 does not take effect until October 1, 2018.
New Vermont Gun Laws FAQs | Department of Public Safety
 

Matt-CZ

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The CMP recently updated the page for the NE games to add this:

Due to new law competitors traveling to the New England CMP Cup & CMP Games matches may not bring a 20 round magazine with them. Competitors may use 10 round magazines during the New England games to be compliant with the new laws of the state of Vermont. You may also borrow a 20 round magazine from a member of the Vermont State Rifle and Pistol Association after your arrival to Camp Ethan Allen Training Site for the New England Games. Please see a CMP Associate at check-in if you need to borrow a magazine.
Seems pretty safe to say they are going to be relaxing the mag dimensions rule to accommodate the mag cap.

New England Games - Civilian Marksmanship Program
 

Mountain

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I see I see, I'm glad I asked. The CMP rules still require the same outside dimensions of a 20 round, correct?
I went last year to try out the small arms class and shot an AR for the first time and at a distance greater than 100 yards also for the first time. Did awful but had a blast! Since then I have collected most of the gear necessary and am planning to join the 80 round match, the EIC match and the SAFS match. Primary objective is to get good zeros for the Jericho range for the future!

SAFS is a very good class and a fun match to shoot. I've taken it before and just missed the intro EIC points as only the top 10 percent score them. Came in 4th out of 39 shooters (10.2%), and they don't round down LOL. Their rifles are very nice Rock River National Match AR's.

Haven't shot the 80-round match but the EIC will start out at 200 yards with standing off-hand. Then to 300 yards for prone rapid. After that, 20 shots slow prone at 600 yards. You are going to want to know very well what are your come-ups, especially for 600 yards. Also the wind can be tricky there. At times you will see the wind flags all blowing opposite direction from the next closest flag.

What ammo are you shooting? You want at least 77 grain for 600 yards, but 80 grain will be better.
 

PappyM3

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...

What ammo are you shooting? You want at least 77 grain for 600 yards, but 80 grain will be better.
For a new shooter I generally recommend factory loads and to spend more time shooting and dry firing than doing load development. There are enough factory loads that will clean targets all day long if you do your part.

The 77 TMKs is a good option for factory loaded rounds to use across the course. Unless you’re loading your 80 SMK hot, they’re pretty equal in wind resistance up to 15mph full value. Target sports currently has them in stock too.

A cheaper option for an across the course round is the Hornady 73 ELD, in 5.56 flavor. It slightly beats 77 TMK in wind resistance. It’s also a 3/4 moa bullet out of the Shilen 1/7.5 I’m using.

You can go with a 73 ELD Superformance for more velocity, but will want to use a heavy buffer or you’ll get popped primers. I recommend sticking with the normal 5.56 variant.
 
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Mountain

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For a new shooter I generally recommend factory loads and to spend more time shooting and dry firing than doing load development. There are enough factory loads that will clean targets all day long if you do your part.

The 77 TMKs is a good option for factory loaded rounds to use across the course. Unless you’re loading your 80 SMK hot, they’re pretty equal in wind resistance up to 15mph full value. Target sports currently has them in stock too.

A cheaper option for an across the course round is the Hornady 73 ELD, in 5.56 flavor. It slightly beats 77 TMK in wind resistance. It’s also a 3/4 moa bullet out of the Shilen 1/7.5 I’m using.

You can go with a 73 ELD Superformance for more velocity, but will want to use a heavy buffer or you’ll get popped primers. I recommend sticking with the normal 5.56 variant.
Nice! Good advice regarding factory ammo, not only for new shooters but lazy experienced shooters too. Sig factory match with 77 SMK's (Sierra Match King) is consistently sub-MOA out of my Compass Lake / Krieger barrel and more or less MOA from my Criterion barrel upper. Some groups closer to 1/ MOA. Last high power I shot with this ammo. Botched offhand but did well at 600.

I'll have to try the 73 ELD's sometime. Realize what works for different rifles may not be the same, but what 'jump' do you use for these bullets? I have not tried Superformance in .223 but in 6.5 Manbun (Creedmoor) it's too damn hot for an AR. No primer issues since I use a high pressure JP bolt, but I think in an AR it loses some accuracy. Regarding TMK's, even though stupid expensive I use them for my M1A. Won my last CMP Modern Military match with 155 TMK's.

For the OP, another excellent factory round is Norma Match with SMK 77 grain bullets. Also if you reload or ever will, Norma brass is maybe as good as Lapua brass.
 
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You may also borrow a 20 round magazine from a member of the Vermont State Rifle and Pistol Association
So how is one able to “borrow” a mag when they get there? The pre-ban exemption only covers possession by the owner, not transfers to anybody else.

This law is a shitshow.

That FAQ posted above mischaracterizes the law, too. This is the actual law:

Vermont Laws

The FAQ would lead one to believe that all pre 4/11/2018 mags are exempt so long as they had been in Vermont, but it only exempts possession. Transfer of those mags is still prohibited.
 
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PappyM3

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To keep this on topic, I’ve actually just started to use 20rnd PMAGs that are permanently fixed to 10 rounds. I had been using preban 20 rounders, but there’s really no reason to. The preban 20 rounders are more expensive and therefore better suited to keep ready for 20 round purposes. Service Rifle needs no more than 8 rounds per magazine, so I’m going the altered PMAG route. A plus is that they have the marking dots that can be painted, so I can differentiate my 2 rounders from my 8 rounders without worrying about the paint rubbing off.

...I'll have to try the 73 ELD's sometime. Realize what works for different rifles may not be the same, but what 'jump' do you use for these bullets? I have not tried Superformance in .223 but in 6.5 Manbun (Creedmoor) it's too damn hot for an AR. No primer issues since I use a high pressure JP bolt, but I think in an AR it loses some accuracy. Regarding TMK's, even though stupid expensive I use them for my M1A. Won my last CMP Modern Military match with 155 TMK's.
Good info on the Sig 77s.

For the 73s, I’ve just used the Hornady factory loads available from Target Sports. I’m sure if I did a group with enough rounds it might expand to slightly over 1moa, but the groups I’ve tested it has been sub-moa. Regardless, it’s precise enough for service rifle.

I do have some 80gr ELDs that I’m playing with. I tried 24gr of Vihta N140 under the 80gr. At .02 off the lands, it’s a hair over 1moa, and a little on the slow side. It showed to be 2624 FPS or about 70 FPS slower than the Hornady book predicted. I tested a 10th off the lands and at the lands with less success. I still need to try a few different iterations off the lands on either side of the 20th and a few into the lands. Once I get it Sub-MOA for a five shot group, I’ll start bumping up the powder. I probably won’t do any of this until Fall though. I’m running the 73 ELDs ATC until the end of the season.
 

Obi2winky

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SAFS is a very good class and a fun match to shoot. I've taken it before and just missed the intro EIC points as only the top 10 percent score them. Came in 4th out of 39 shooters (10.2%), and they don't round down LOL. Their rifles are very nice Rock River National Match AR's.

Haven't shot the 80-round match but the EIC will start out at 200 yards with standing off-hand. Then to 300 yards for prone rapid. After that, 20 shots slow prone at 600 yards. You are going to want to know very well what are your come-ups, especially for 600 yards. Also the wind can be tricky there. At times you will see the wind flags all blowing opposite direction from the next closest flag.

What ammo are you shooting? You want at least 77 grain for 600 yards, but 80 grain will be better.
Testing the limits of the law is not really worth it for me, so I'll probably just go with a 10 rounder. Here's a 10/20 mag if anyone is interested (20 Round 10 Round Black ASC 22320RDL10RDSS) but if CMP is really going to relax the mag dimension requirements, I'm more than happy to buy the cheaper standard 10rd mags :) I was nowhere near the top 10% last year at the SAFS. I'm hoping to get closer this year.

I load 24.0 grains Varget behind 75 grain projo from Everglades. I shot that at a NRA league match at Redding earlier this year so I have rough zeros for that load. Didn't do any load dev on it but I did a lot of research on the different forums and realistically, the ammo is not my limiting factor. One tricky thing is that I was shooting with a 6 o'clock hold that match, but I noticed that I had a hard time keeping my focus on the front sight especially as the distance grew. My focus kept bouncing between the front sight and the target. I know it's a training issue, but I want to try out center of mass hold next match. I don't have room for -3.0 MoA on my rear sight so I have to raise the front sight a full turn (-5.0 MoA), then go up on the rear to take up the difference. Ideally I want to figure this out before the next match...

Would I be really be hurtin using a 75 grain? And for the 600, I figured I'm not good enough yet to justify having another set of ammo. But maybe for next season, I'll work on it.
 

Mountain

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Testing the limits of the law is not really worth it for me, so I'll probably just go with a 10 rounder. Here's a 10/20 mag if anyone is interested (20 Round 10 Round Black ASC 22320RDL10RDSS) but if CMP is really going to relax the mag dimension requirements, I'm more than happy to buy the cheaper standard 10rd mags :) I was nowhere near the top 10% last year at the SAFS. I'm hoping to get closer this year.

I load 24.0 grains Varget behind 75 grain projo from Everglades. I shot that at a NRA league match at Redding earlier this year so I have rough zeros for that load. Didn't do any load dev on it but I did a lot of research on the different forums and realistically, the ammo is not my limiting factor. One tricky thing is that I was shooting with a 6 o'clock hold that match, but I noticed that I had a hard time keeping my focus on the front sight especially as the distance grew. My focus kept bouncing between the front sight and the target. I know it's a training issue, but I want to try out center of mass hold next match. I don't have room for -3.0 MoA on my rear sight so I have to raise the front sight a full turn (-5.0 MoA), then go up on the rear to take up the difference. Ideally I want to figure this out before the next match...

Would I be really be hurtin using a 75 grain? And for the 600, I figured I'm not good enough yet to justify having another set of ammo. But maybe for next season, I'll work on it.
Honestly, the standard 10-round mags will be less in the way and easier to manage. Never seen it enforced, but the rules dictate that you don't use the magazine as a prop or rest. The smaller profile of a standard 10-rounder makes it much easier for it to be out of the way. If you are shooting well and squadded with a real tool, he/she might report the violation. Also possible that a CMP inspector is watching. In most cases if you do something wrong, the other person is going to give you a warning and let it go.

Regarding that 6:00 hold and losing focus of the front sight: Especially on sh!tty eyes days (getting more common with age), I will lower the sight to a different background (grass, dirt, whatever) and refocus, then smoothly raise to 6:00 hold and squeeze off the shot once that position is stable. Works better for me than switching to center hold. YRMV...

Those 75's should be just fine, especially if they were working for you at Reading.
 

dw617

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Never seen it enforced, but the rules dictate that you don't use the magazine as a prop or rest.
In rapid prone, I keep rifle in my shoulder during the mag change. Mag drops straight out after the first two. I was warned at a local pre Perry practice match that I should ensure the dropped mag didn't look like it was acting as a support. Probably a lightening strike, but worth mentioning.
 

dw617

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One tricky thing is that I was shooting with a 6 o'clock hold that match, but I noticed that I had a hard time keeping my focus on the front sight especially as the distance grew. My focus kept bouncing between the front sight and the target.
Consider moving to an optic for next year. I held out, and finally moved over after shooting a match in challenging lighting conditions. Why make it hard on yourself when everyone else has them?
 

Obi2winky

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Regarding that 6:00 hold and losing focus of the front sight: Especially on sh!tty eyes days (getting more common with age), I will lower the sight to a different background (grass, dirt, whatever) and refocus, then smoothly raise to 6:00 hold and squeeze off the shot once that position is stable. Works better for me than switching to center hold. YRMV...
Consider moving to an optic for next year. I held out, and finally moved over after shooting a match in challenging lighting conditions. Why make it hard on yourself when everyone else has them?
I did think about going scoped. My first and only NRA match I've shot so far, I think it was only me and dw617 that were shooting irons. As a relatively new competitor, I did want to get my fundamentals though. I didn't want to end up being one of those people who know how to shoot with scopes and reddots but cant shoot irons. But yea, maybe next year I can move on to scopes.
 

mac1911

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Testing the limits of the law is not really worth it for me, so I'll probably just go with a 10 rounder. Here's a 10/20 mag if anyone is interested (20 Round 10 Round Black ASC 22320RDL10RDSS) but if CMP is really going to relax the mag dimension requirements, I'm more than happy to buy the cheaper standard 10rd mags :) I was nowhere near the top 10% last year at the SAFS. I'm hoping to get closer this year.

I load 24.0 grains Varget behind 75 grain projo from Everglades. I shot that at a NRA league match at Redding earlier this year so I have rough zeros for that load. Didn't do any load dev on it but I did a lot of research on the different forums and realistically, the ammo is not my limiting factor. One tricky thing is that I was shooting with a 6 o'clock hold that match, but I noticed that I had a hard time keeping my focus on the front sight especially as the distance grew. My focus kept bouncing between the front sight and the target. I know it's a training issue, but I want to try out center of mass hold next match. I don't have room for -3.0 MoA on my rear sight so I have to raise the front sight a full turn (-5.0 MoA), then go up on the rear to take up the difference. Ideally I want to figure this out before the next match...

Would I be really be hurtin using a 75 grain? And for the 600, I figured I'm not good enough yet to justify having another set of ammo. But maybe for next season, I'll work on it.
I would think cmp would have to alter the rules for the laws
Now for your front sight focus. This is where a fat front sight comes into play. Put a .075" square peg up front and it will be easier to focus on. Leading to less dot gazing and eye fatigue.
 

dw617

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I got into HP in 2016 and that was right in the transition period between irons and optics. Had I started earlier, I probably would have moved over sooner when everyone else did. Had I started later, I probably would have gone right to an optic. I made a mid season switch this year. There are some newer shooters who have never shot service rifle irons, which is fine. Optics has a learning curve - it's not an easy button. I still think Standing is easier with a post. I like Irons but when everyone else is shooting a scope, you're throwing points away. And you can still shoot Irons in CMP Games matches :)
 

PappyM3

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I would think cmp would have to alter the rules for the laws.
They kind of do, even codified. In section 4.1.2, under alternate rifle. If a competitor is from a state where laws prohibit adherence to the AR15 rules:

“Magazines. The rifle may have an internal magazine, a flush-mounted removable magazine, or a standard box magazine that does not exceed the dimensions of the M16-type 20-round magazine. Magazines must be capable of holding at least five (5) rounds.”

That said, it’s not specifically about a match held in an overly restrictive state.
 

Mountain

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They kind of do, even codified. In section 4.1.2, under alternate rifle. If a competitor is from a state where laws prohibit adherence to the AR15 rules:

“Magazines. The rifle may have an internal magazine, a flush-mounted removable magazine, or a standard box magazine that does not exceed the dimensions of the M16-type 20-round magazine. Magazines must be capable of holding at least five (5) rounds.”

That said, it’s not specifically about a match held in an overly restrictive state.
This rule is worth remembering, in case someone gets picky about smaller mags and doesn't realize this rule has been applied.
 

Obi2winky

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After my first NRA match and the difficulty I had with my front post, I did get a set of front sights and rear sights from Compass Lake. Very nice set. I've been dryfiring with the biggest one, which I think is 0.72. Definitely easier but I haven't tested it out anything beyond 100 yards so results are yet to be seen.

I got into HP in 2016 and that was right in the transition period between irons and optics. Had I started earlier, I probably would have moved over sooner when everyone else did. Had I started later, I probably would have gone right to an optic. I made a mid season switch this year. There are some newer shooters who have never shot service rifle irons, which is fine. Optics has a learning curve - it's not an easy button. I still think Standing is easier with a post. I like Irons but when everyone else is shooting a scope, you're throwing points away. And you can still shoot Irons in CMP Games matches :)
I'll be looking into getting a scope this winter. I'm considering Athlon Helos BTR. Cheap enough and decent reviews, as far as I can read up.
 

Obi2winky

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not to hijack on a thread i started with a slight off topic item, but if I go for scoped service rifle, the barrel change is a very easy thing to do correct?
 

PatMcD

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not to hijack on a thread i started with a slight off topic item, but if I go for scoped service rifle, the barrel change is a very easy thing to do correct?
If you use a quadrail, then yes, barrel changes are easier. If you use the old NM float tube and handguards, then there is no change.

After my first NRA match and the difficulty I had with my front post, I did get a set of front sights and rear sights from Compass Lake. Very nice set. I've been dryfiring with the biggest one, which I think is 0.72. Definitely easier but I haven't tested it out anything beyond 100 yards so results are yet to be seen.



I'll be looking into getting a scope this winter. I'm considering Athlon Helos BTR. Cheap enough and decent reviews, as far as I can read up.
I use the Athlon. I like it.


I got into HP in 2016 and that was right in the transition period between irons and optics. Had I started earlier, I probably would have moved over sooner when everyone else did. Had I started later, I probably would have gone right to an optic. I made a mid season switch this year. There are some newer shooters who have never shot service rifle irons, which is fine. Optics has a learning curve - it's not an easy button. I still think Standing is easier with a post. I like Irons but when everyone else is shooting a scope, you're throwing points away. And you can still shoot Irons in CMP Games matches :)
Love the new avatar Derek. Congratulations again!
 
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